Vintage Epicure 20+ Speakers' restoration...

Mystery

I got these Epicure 20+ speakers in November 2012 but never got around fixing these until now.

These are the higher model of the famous EPI 100's that everyone raves about.
Think of these as two EPI 100's, one on top and one on the side.

They are in decent shape besides few scratches/dings and some MDF break issue on the bottom stand panels.
Grill covers are missing EPI logo.

However, shocked to see duct tape surrounds on them.
He said he used them like that for a while and took them out of one speaker to take pictures for listing. Let's hope VC is okay.

BTW, the sticker says 20 - not + but these are + looking at Human site.
Top is slanted towards the front.

Link to specs: http://www.humanspeakers.com/cgi-bin/page.pl?page=e/epicure-20.txt

Pictures of these when I got them:





Fast forward 2 years:
Finally, these got some attention after almost 2 years.

Duct tape came off without using anything.
If they were anything harder, I'd have used some hair dryer heat but it worked great as is.
I had to be careful though. I put pressure on the cone otherwise it could deform the cone.
Just put pressure where you are pulling and peel it off slowly by moving the pressure accordingly.

As you can see, PO used a lot of duct tape, multiple layers of it.


Cleaned drivers:
Gravity has its effect on the drivers as noticeable in the picture.
Front two cones are lower drivers and have cones up high than the drivers in the back.
The drivers on top that sit almost horizontal have spiders little bit sagging while the spiders of the lower vertical drivers still come out and hold the cone much higher.



Back of drivers: Some have Sept 26 1977 date while others have Oct (Almost my age )


Refoamed to the cone and waiting for glue to set:


BTW, they are filled with fiberglass or batting really tight.
I had to push the drivers against the batting.

Let them set overnight and plugged everything together this morning.
Man these tweeters are quite amazing.
Male voices have that natural roughness most other tweeters struggle to produce.
Great highs and mids but bass is not as much as I expected from their size but my setup is not ideal so that is something to consider.

Next is to upgrade capacitor and epoxy magnets sometimes in the future...
These also have the same magnet shift issue as Polk drivers.

Also need to fix few screw holes as they have disintegrated. Larry's rings?

Here is finished product: Need to wipe down duct tape marks and wash grills...
I also flipped the drivers 180 degrees where possible.
Some drivers had no give on the wires so couldn't flip all the way but did as much as possible.





And need to cull the herd even more

drumminman

Nice work Mystery! How do they sound?

Mystery

drumminman wrote: »

Nice work Mystery! How do they sound?

Highs are really good.
Very smooth overall sound and lots of airy details.
I had to bump the bass little bit to bring it up to the level of the JBL L80t3 that are standing next to them.
It may get better after the new foam loosens little bit.
Just finished this morning and listened to about 1/2 hour before heading to work so need to spend more time.
These are slightly inefficient compared to JBL and Polks.

Also, need to upgrade the capacitor as it's 37 years old.
These have the simplest crossover.
Just one capacitor.
I already have the capacitor so will do soon.
Wanted to hear how they sound as is to compare later.
So far very engaging sound.

TNHNDYMAN

Nice project. I've had several pair of 100V's and also a pair of 200's I think. Would love to hear those. Those lead wires to the tweeter are very fragile. I bought a pair of the bay last year and they arrived broken and had to search for another set. Enjoy.

Mystery

TNHNDYMAN wrote: »

Nice project. I've had several pair of 100V's and also a pair of 200's I think. Would love to hear those. Those lead wires to the tweeter are very fragile. I bought a pair of the bay last year and they arrived broken and had to search for another set. Enjoy.

I too had quite a few pairs of 100's, some with red and some with yellow ringed tweeters.
I also have a pair of TE 280's waiting for foam. The 280's sound better than many TE series I had so worth restore. Hopefully soon...

These 20+ have room filling sound due to the two faces of driver arrangement.
Will see how they do after crossover upgrade.

westmassguy

Mystery, I noticed you didn't remove the dust caps and shim the voice coils. I always do, and one of the benefits besides perfect voice coil alignment, is resetting the sagging spider. Raise the cone so the spider is neutral, then raise it a hair higher, glue the new surround with the spider in the raised position. Once it's dry, the new surround will hold the spider in the neutral position.

Mystery

westmassguy wrote: »

Mystery, I noticed you didn't remove the dust caps and shim the voice coils. I always do, and one of the benefits besides perfect voice coil alignment, is resetting the sagging spider. Raise the cone so the spider is neutral, then raise it a hair higher, glue the new surround with the spider in the raised position. Once it's dry, the new surround will hold the spider in the neutral position.

I think cutting shims is better than test tone but I've never cut shims so not comfortable doing that.
Plus it involves more work.
I need to give it a try sometimes to see how that works out.

So far, test tone has worked great on over 2 dozen speakers.
The sagging spiders actually lifted to same level when the test tones were at work so that's good.

westmassguy

Just a suggestion, as long as they work. Did you swap the top drivers with the fronts?

Mystery

westmassguy wrote: »

Just a suggestion, as long as they work. Did you swap the top drivers with the fronts?

No, I put them as they were but flipped 180 degrees to reverse any gravity effect.
They are all same drivers so swapping may work better. Hmm...

westmassguy

If they're the same, then swap them. The ones that were in front will still have some sag, but nothing close to the top mounted drivers

Mystery

westmassguy wrote: »

If they're the same, then swap them. The ones that were in front will still have some sag, but nothing close to the top mounted drivers

Will do that when I get the epoxy for magnets.
Thanks

Mystery

Just noticed this.
If you check the drivers' back, the two on the right have rough back while the two on the left have smooth. The right drivers also have ring indentation 1/2" in the cone while left drivers are completely smooth.
I'll have to check if they both are from the same speaker.
Looks like slight difference depending upon the date as some have sept and some have oct date on them. May be different batch.
Hmm...

westmassguy

The mass of the cones may be different. Is there a model # stamped somewhere on them, or on the cone?

Mystery

westmassguy wrote: »

The mass of the cones may be different. Is there a model # stamped somewhere on them, or on the cone?

Not sure.
All have 8 on the sides and date stamped on the back.
I need to check other pictures later.

BTW, I just confirmed from my markings on the drivers that the two drivers on the right are from one speaker and the two on the left are from one speakers.
So both drivers on one speaker have that type of cone.
Looks like the ones from Sept have rough back.

Also noticed that some driver baskets have holes in the inner metal frame while others don't.
Right front and left back drivers' frames have holes.
Not sure what's the point of having a hole there. May be to hold terminals?
The part of the frame where the hole is, is wider than the ones with no hole.
Weird...

RandyWilliamson

Looks like you cruised down restoration heaven ave on these. You got off easy...gotta love it when that happens. Enjoy.

Mystery

From my research, Human used whatever they had in stock at the time.
Many owners have the same thing of different basket and cone papers.

Listened more and really lacking on bass.
The woofers move a lot but not much bass coming out.
Maybe the tweeters are too much for the woofers.

I'll check if they are in phase tonight but I'm pretty sure they are.

westmassguy

They look like typical Rola or CTS Drivers. they supplied everybody back then.
Are they vented or sealed? Any caps in the Lo Pass Filter?

Mystery

Sealed.
Crossover has only one 10uf capacitor.
Looking at the schematics below, that 10uf cap is for the tweeters.
Both woofers get full signal from amp, no cap, no resistor, no inductor.

westmassguy

There's your lack of bass right there. Don't know how much you plan to invest, but a new cap in the Hi-Pass, clean the selector switch with some DeoxIT, try and balance the tweeter output, you should be fine. Acoustic suspensions designs need a lot of power compared to ported or pr.

Mystery

westmassguy wrote: »

There's your lack of bass right there. Don't know how much you plan to invest, but a new cap in the Hi-Pass, clean the selector switch with some DeoxIT, try and balance the tweeter output, you should be fine. Acoustic suspensions designs need a lot of power compared to ported or pr.

I already have few 10uf 100v PP capacitors.

westmassguy

You're good to go then. Sealed designs usually have tighter bass, at the expense of efficiency. They can be made to go low, but don't expect the room to shake with those drivers.

Mystery

One thing I noticed is the bass gets louder farther away so may need bigger room for them.

westmassguy

Those remind me of the original Bose 601s, from late 70s, similar concept.
You may be having room interaction, standing waves etc.

soundfreak1

Have had many old EPI speakers, liked them a lot. Good bang for the buck. Enjoy!

cnh

Have to agree with Dskip. Placement for something like those must be problematic.

On another note, I've seen all kinds of "variations" in the vintage EPI 8" driver. Even my set of 100Vs have different screw mounts, doesn't make any difference in sound though.

As for the T/E series. You've just got to get your ears on some T/E 360s (the BIG BOYS)...prodigious sound, fantastic imaging! The "best" of the T/E series IMO. (Probably the last gasp of decent sounding EPIs?).

cnh

Mystery

360 eh?
I left them for $20 bucks.
You should have mentioned before.

boston1450

Mystery. Those came out very nice.You do great work.Dang is it me or are those things beefy/heavy? Enjoy your Nov12 Epi's

Mystery

They are pretty wide and big but not much tall.

Figured out the issue with a battery test.
Left speaker's top woofer was out of phase even after I marked everything. :grimacing:
That one woofer completely messed up the bass.

After correcting that, they sound very good.
Bass still doesn't have JBL's punch but it's really smooth and balanced.
Just enjoyed listening to them over an hour till midnight.
Low level on the tweeter is what I have now as normal level is slightly higher than I like.
I think I need in between low and normal.
Maybe capacitor upgrade will change levels slightly to my liking.

This is indeed very nice speaker and unique design.
The woofers are playing full range or whatever they can play and tweeter is the only one crossed over.
Me likey!

westmassguy

Mystery wrote: »

They are pretty wide and big but not much tall.

Figured out the issue with a battery test.
Left speaker's top woofer was out of phase even after I marked everything. :grimacing:
That one woofer completely messed up the bass.

After correcting that, they sound very good.
Bass still doesn't have JBL's punch but it's really smooth and balanced.
Just enjoyed listening to them over an hour till midnight.
Low level on the tweeter is what I have now as normal level is slightly higher than I like.
I think I need in between low and normal.
Maybe capacitor upgrade will change levels slightly to my liking.

This is indeed very nice speaker and unique design.
The woofers are playing full range or whatever they can play and tweeter is the only one crossed over.
Me likey!

If the woofers have a smooth, natural roll-off, with out any resonance peaks, you can run them straight through without a Lo-Pass filter. The 601s I mentioned earlier, had no Lo-Pass filter either.
Your schematic shows a three position switch. The normal position, is straight through, with no Resistor. Medium position has the two 5 ohm Resistors in parallel for 2.5 ohms, in Series with the Tweeter. Low position has the 5 ohm in Series with the Tweeter.
If you're going to change the caps, might as well change the resistors to Mills or Mundorf MOX while you're at it.

Mystery

Replaced the capacitor.
However, the crossover is a ****.
Terminal cup can only come from the back but the binding posts prevent it from coming out.
So instead, I soldered and hot glued within the cabinet.
I was thinking of replacing resistors as I have them as well but need to take terminal cup out.
Hot glue gave me a middle finger.
When I took the glue gun out of the woofer hole, a big drop landed on my middle finger and now I have a big blister right below the nail.
Swapped the woofers and put some wood glue on the bottom stands.
I'll let the glue dry before standing them up.

Original capacitor also is poly so might have been okay but not as good as new.
Original crossover:


Capacitor replaced along with old capacitor on the side:

cnh

They're never going to sound like the bass on the JBL. Different design. Those JBLs have some slamming bass/reflex action. The EPIs are sealed; New England like sound.

cnh