bi amp

David7544

This is a question for Polk engineers, not a bunch of people who don't know what they're talking about. With an AVR (Denon AVR X 1100-W) if I bi-amp the front speakers (Polk Rtia5's) using the Back surround amp outputs, what specifically happens as far as impedance and amplifier power output to the speakers?

slk55amg

Not much you are still using the Denon amp. To get anything of value you need a external amplifier to truly bi amp.

soundfreak1

Not to mention an external xover!

David7544

you're both wrong. I spoke for a half an hour on the phone today with a Denon engineer.He said
1-provided that I have accessed(within the receivers menu options) the "amp assign" menu, clicked on it, and selected "bi-amp", then connected two separate pairs of amp outputs(the front r/l, and the "back surround" r/l), to the speakers, (Polk Rtia5's), I AM, IN FACT, bi-amping the speakers. Each speaker is now receiving, from the AVR, twice as much power as it was before( 160 watts instead ofg 80).
2-The crossovers in the speakers are better qualified to divide the frequency distribution to the drivers than is some yo-yo who's manipulating the frequency delivery with an external crossover.

tonyb

You fail to understand the basic principles of powering speakers versus marketing gimmicks.
Most receiver makers with that option employ it as a selling point. The more speakers you add to the receiver, the less power all will receive.

Did you know by chance that the top half of that speaker probably uses less than 15 watts anyway ? What happens to the other 65 watts out of 80 in your supposedly bi-amp configuration ?

Please read up, look elsewhere if you like, google bi-amping. Proper bi-amping is as described earlier, not the ghetto version receiver makers want to sell you on.

David7544

you don't even know we're talking about. I'm not "adding more speakers", I'm taking them away. I'm adding more amplifiers.

voltz

when you buy AVR that says it has 120 wpc that is only with 2 channels driven, when you add more speakers like in a 5.1 setup your droping that way down . if you then plug speaker cables into the unused open extra rear surrounds to power the front speakers your dropping the total wpc down even further no matter what the denon rep said. that is just the facts of life and you can not change it. we have all been there and done that just to give it a go and realize why everyone warn us no to do it...

but you are very mistaken when you say tonyb doesn't know what he talking about as anyone who has spent anytime on this forum will tell you his advance experience is way ahead of most of us and I have found him to be one of the most trusty resources for audio info I have known and a great man who loves to help people like you make better decisions and your remake is just way out of line for a man who loves to help others.

so please do as you please with your equipment. but you missed the boat on this one.

teekay0007

David7544, you should post about this one more time - at least! - maybe then you'll get the answer you're looking for. After all, isn't it "The third time's the charm!"?
-
Since you know the only answer you'll accept, why do you keep asking? Didn't the Denon engineer answer all the questions you had/have? If not, what the heck were you talking with him/her about for a half an hour?

Sounds like, from your previous post, you're very happy with your "bi-amped" RTiA5s hooked up the way you have them done. Why not just enjoy them, instead of goin' off on a lot of very knowledgeable people here, telling them that they don't know what they're talking about?

If you did have an actual improvement in SQ after you "bi-amped" them using only your Denon AVR, I'd guess (as F1nut said) that you were just noticing the better sound from removing the less-than-top-of-the-line jumpers that were supplied stock with your speakers.

F1nut

If, in fact, you actually spoke to an engineer and not a customer service rep, that engineer should be fired. For starters, that AVR is not capable of providing 80wpc to more than 2 channels driven.

In fact, here are the specs;

80 wpc @ 8 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz, 0.08% THD, 2ch driven

tonyb

David7544 wrote: »

you don't even know we're talking about. I'm not "adding more speakers", I'm taking them away. I'm adding more amplifiers.

Using the amp channels is the same thing. Your in essence using it in 7 channel mode instead of 5 channel mode by using those back surround channels.

Dennis Gardner

David7544 wrote: »

selected "bi-amp", then connected two separate pairs of amp outputs(the front r/l, and the "back surround" r/l),

Your amps are bi-amped as long as they are running within the limits of the power supplies. With that said........

What is missing is that they aren't truly separated pairs of outputs if they are derived from the same amp transformer power supply. The only way that a single piece of equipment can reach that level or separation is to have separate power supplies for each channel and most AVRs don't reach that level, so you can pseudo bi-amp anything you care to, but the results may or may not be heard.

I will also take this a step further and state that even 2 stereo amps bi-amped, (one on top, one on bottom) isn't a truly separated bi-amp system, since most stereo amps share power supplies across the left and right channels, but most of us on this forum consider this type of setup to be acceptable since the amps are being run within their rated/intended power ratings. It is a slippery engineering slope that we choose to tread on, I believe sometimes just to pick a fight for our beliefs, but if you want to get technically accurate, there is no difference as long as the power supplies are never over tasked.

We tend to choose our own levels of where we think ghetto bi-amping exists, since very few of us would choose to run 4 mono blocks plugged into 4 separate power circuits for a pair of speakers.

Bi-amp away.......as long as you like the sound, that is all that matters, but if you want to brag about the added sound you have or how much louder it can get now that you are bi-amping, prepare for the lashings to commence.

ZLTFUL

I posted the answer in the previous thread this person posted in. He ignored my answer there and will ignore your answers here. Because they aren't the answers he wants to hear.

As F1nut said, if it was indeed an engineer (who usually don't answer the phones and are typically at the company's R&D facility not their customer service help desk), then that "engineer" should be sacked for not knowing some very basic electrical engineering theory.

But let's reiterate (this particular example uses the AVR-2312 but the same basic laws apply to your AVR as well)

OK, first, I will address the "discreet amplifier" portion.
The 2312 has individual amplifier sections (boards if you will). But that's as far as the "discreet power" goes. You will notice that it simply says "discreet power" and not "discreet power supplies"? That is because they share the same power supply. This makes it technically impossible to bi-amp using an AVR. As loads increase (adding speakers), the power being sent to each channel decreases. The AVR-2312's power ratings are with 2 channels driven at 6 and 4 ohms. Your speakers are an 8 ohm speaker which means that the amount of power is even further reduced.
Ultimately, you are looking at the neighborhood of 80-90wpc at 8 ohms with all channels being driven...most likely less.

Now let's address what true active bi-amping is.
You will need separate high pass and low pass amplifiers, an active crossover network and to remove the passive crossover from the equation.
Simply connecting both sets of binding posts to separate amplifiers only accomplishes half of this. The crossover inside the cabinet is still part of the equation.
Here is the concept in illustration form:


"Do I need to disconnect the passive crossover in my speakers?"
The answer is ... Yes, otherwise you are not really bi-amping at all.

Passive bi-amping (where two amplifiers are used in a bi-wiring connection) is, IMHO, a waste of money. Although there may be some moderate sonic benefits, they are not worth the expense of the extra amplifier. (And to properly actively or passively bi-amp, you *will* need separate amps)

pitdogg2

David7544 wrote: »

This is a question for Polk engineers, not a bunch of people who don't know what they're talking about.

Give Yamaha a call they'll give you the right answer. Just a few weeks ago another thread asked the same thing BUT, was unprepared for the answer the Yamaha tech (engineer) gave them...The answer? Marketing babble was just what the tech at Yamaha told him. Even told him it would actually decrease the power to the speakers as the power supply only has so much to give. Ever notice how receiver's have actually gotten lighter ...yep smaller power supplies as IRON and shipping cost big bucks and NOT in they companies price point.

David7544

F1nut doesn't know what he's talking about. The spec in the manual reads;
"80 watts per channel,all channels driven ,into 8ohms,20-20,000 hz,<0.08thd. 120 wpc into 6 ohms. I talked to the Denon tech again, and he said that so long as I accessed, in the receivers menu,the "amp assign" option, clicked on it, and selected "bi-amp", that each of my speakers is now receiving 80+80 watts, 160 watts per speaker. I had no idea this subject would inspire so much stupidity. I'm still listening to my system with this ( admittedly half assed) bi-amp setup I hooked up, and so far I must admit that it does not seem to have resulted in any significant improvement in the sound. I'm not sure that "marketing babble" is worse than the babble on this thread, but in any case, I'm having a good time experimenting. It amazes me that people stupid enough to believe that a high-end speaker wire "sounds better" than a less expensive wire are so offended by my humble attempt at configuring my speaker hookup. I suspect that "true" bi-amping doesn't result in any significant improvement either. Even though I'm sure someone here will tell me it does. Isn't this hobby great? It's like arguing about religion. People are absolutely convinced of things which have no basis in objective fact.

PSOVLSK

David7544 wrote: »

People are absolutely convinced of things which have no basis in objective fact.

Irony defined.

voltz

[quote="David7544;2084926" It amazes me that people stupid enough to believe that a high-end speaker wire "sounds better" than a less expensive wire are so offended by my humble attempt at configuring my speaker hookup.[/quote]

hmm did you just turn your bi-amp question into a rant about speaker cables?

BlueFox

Good to see the trolls have found the new site. It is "The Stupid People" who make audio sites interesting.

tonyb

If I had a nickel.....

ZLTFUL

Dam nit @Kenneth Swauger‌ I could have sworn you banned that troll...

So you're "David" now huh? Mark was probably too obvious huh?

jeremymarcinko

David7544 wrote: »

The spec in the manual reads;
"80 watts per channel,all channels driven ,into 8ohms,20-20,000 hz,<0.08thd. 120 wpc into 6 ohms.

Does it really, taken from Denon's website.

And the manual.

ZLTFUL

First, your RTiA5s are an 8 ohm speaker. Not a 6 ohm speaker.
Second, your manual and the specs listed on Denon's website are at odds...because http://usa.denon.com/us/product/hometheater/avreceiversht/avrx1100w says that:

number of poweramps
7

Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% 2ch Drive)
80 W

Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.05% 2ch Drive)
-

Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 0.7% 2ch Drive)
120 W

Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 10% 1ch Drive)
175 W

And from the spec sheet:



Third, I find it absolutely hilarious that you are calling the members here stupid when they have brought more to show you the fool than you have to the contrary.

David7544 wrote: »

F1nut doesn't know what he's talking about. The spec in the manual reads;
"80 watts per channel,all channels driven ,into 8ohms,20-20,000 hz,<0.08thd. 120 wpc into 6 ohms. I talked to the Denon tech again, and he said that so long as I accessed, in the receivers menu,the "amp assign" option, clicked on it, and selected "bi-amp", that each of my speakers is now receiving 80+80 watts, 160 watts per speaker. I had no idea this subject would inspire so much stupidity. I'm still listening to my system with this ( admittedly half assed) bi-amp setup I hooked up, and so far I must admit that it does not seem to have resulted in any significant improvement in the sound. I'm not sure that "marketing babble" is worse than the babble on this thread, but in any case, I'm having a good time experimenting. It amazes me that people stupid enough to believe that a high-end speaker wire "sounds better" than a less expensive wire are so offended by my humble attempt at configuring my speaker hookup. I suspect that "true" bi-amping doesn't result in any significant improvement either. Even though I'm sure someone here will tell me it does. Isn't this hobby great? It's like arguing about religion. People are absolutely convinced of things which have no basis in objective fact.

ZLTFUL

Manual also confirms that you are full of...it. But adding that would be like rubbing salt in the stupid wound.

David7544

the reason it says 2chdriven is because they are they are quoting the output for a single power amp at a time. there are 7 of them.

ZLTFUL

DOH! @jeremymarcinko‌ is quicker on the troll stompin' draw!

ZLTFUL

David7544 wrote: »

the reason it says 2chdriven is because they are they are quoting the output for a single power amp at a time. there are 7 of them.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln

vmaxer

ZLTFUL wrote: »

David7544 wrote: »

the reason it says 2chdriven is because they are they are quoting the output for a single power amp at a time. there are 7 of them.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln

Yep, here e go again. Ask for advise when you are already an expert,,,,,,or neophyte.

Gotta love it!!!

ken brydson

Sure miss the bozo list option....

David7544

I admit it;you guys are right. I made another call to Denon and crunched some numbers. There's no way my receiver puts out 80wpc "all channels driven"
It would have to weigh 50 pounds. Denons support tech wouldn't answer the question.

vmaxer

David7544 wrote: »

I admit it;you guys are right. I made another call to Denon and crunched some numbers. There's no way my receiver puts out 80wpc "all channels driven"
It would have to weigh 50 pounds. Denons support tech wouldn't answer the question.

The folks here are usually correct. Enjoy your system!!

F1nut

You owe me an apology.

headrott

David7544 wrote: »

F1nut doesn't know what he's talking about. The spec in the manual reads;
"80 watts per channel,all channels driven ,into 8ohms,20-20,000 hz,<0.08thd. 120 wpc into 6 ohms. I talked to the Denon tech again, and he said that so long as I accessed, in the receivers menu,the "amp assign" option, clicked on it, and selected "bi-amp", that each of my speakers is now receiving 80+80 watts, 160 watts per speaker. I had no idea this subject would inspire so much stupidity. I'm still listening to my system with this ( admittedly half assed) bi-amp setup I hooked up, and so far I must admit that it does not seem to have resulted in any significant improvement in the sound. I'm not sure that "marketing babble" is worse than the babble on this thread, but in any case, I'm having a good time experimenting. It amazes me that people stupid enough to believe that a high-end speaker wire "sounds better" than a less expensive wire are so offended by my humble attempt at configuring my speaker hookup. I suspect that "true" bi-amping doesn't result in any significant improvement either. Even though I'm sure someone here will tell me it does. Isn't this hobby great? It's like arguing about religion. People are absolutely convinced of things which have no basis in objective fact.

You haven't gone by the names "Habanero Monk" or "Jinjuku" in the past have you? Alternatively, have you associated with him ("them")?