bi amp

13

Answers

  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,679
    edited November 2015
    Option 1

    Depends, depends, depends...try it both ways and decide for yourself.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • soundfreak1
    soundfreak1 Posts: 3,414
    KIDS, You buy them books and they sit in the corners and eat the covers
    Main Rig:
    Krell KAV 250a biamped to mid/highs
    Parasound HCA1500A biamped to lows
    Nakamichi EC100 Active xover
    MIT exp 1 ic's
    Perreaux SA33 class A preamp
    AQ kingcobra ic's
    OPPO 83 CDP
    Lehmann audio black cube SE phono pre, Audioquest phono wire (ITA1/1)
    Denon DP-1200 TT. AToc9ML MC cart.
    Monster HTS 3600 power conditioner
    ADS L1590/2 Biamped
    MIT exps2 speaker cable
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,679
    F1nut wrote: »
    You owe me an apology.

    You think so huh? I thought you were kicked-off the forum? They let you back on?

    Did you apologize to anyone for your abrasive behavior? I highly doubt it so I don't think anyone else should either.

    lol


    The difference between you and I is when I'm wrong about something I do what a man does, I admit it and apologize. You don't.

    As you are back on the list now, feel free to post whatever. I'll never see it.





    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 33,065
    Option 1 is my vote also, but to improve your over all experience greatly.....add a subwoofer with those speakers.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • Thank you very much for the input! I tried Option 1 last night with mixed results. I am using Apple TV (4) - which says it supports 7.1. And 7.1 shows up on the front display of my Denon.... but with 5.1 iTunes movies thru the new Apple TV (4) nothing comes out of the rear surround speakers. If i play an iTunes 7.1 movie, then sound comes out of the Rear Surround speakers. There must be a bug in the Apple TV oS that was causing this behavior. If I play a 5.1 BluRay i get sound thru the rear surrounds. But not on an Apple TV iTunes 5.1 movie. Frustrating. I guess I will need to wait for Apple to issue a software update. It is a pity as I love the new Apple TV. Any thoughts?
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 33,065
    Nah Nick, I have no experience with the Apple TV, maybe someone else can chime in as we have many users of Apple products.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • Thank you. A broader point... do you guys think the era of Bluray is coming to an end with the popularity of internet deliverable content. And a side point... with Sony 4K TV when will there actually be 4K content available and will it be internet deliverable or on fixed media? Thank you again, as I say, I am really new to this world.
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,880
    4k physical media servers are already here, but I doubt you will see a 4k type disk player. Those days are gone, but vinyl is forever. B)
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2800 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson


    How many flies need to be buzzing a dead horse before you guys stop beating it?
  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,804
    4k physical media servers are already here, but I doubt you will see a 4k type disk player. Those days are gone, but vinyl is forever. B)

    4K Ultra HD Blu-Ray players are being released now.

    http://www.whathifi.com/news/ultra-hd-blu-ray-everything-you-need-to-know
  • Msabot1
    Msabot1 Posts: 2,098
    F1nut wrote: »
    You owe me an apology.

    You think so huh? I thought you were kicked-off the forum? They let you back on?

    Did you apologize to anyone for your abrasive behavior? I highly doubt it so I don't think anyone else should either.

    lol
    when Jesse feels the need to apologize, he sends Chuck Norris. Nothing says " I'm sorry" better than a full roundhouse kick to the skull. >:)o:):D
    F1nut wrote: »
    You owe me an apology.

    You think so huh? I thought you were kicked-off the forum? They let you back on?

    Did you apologize to anyone for your abrasive behavior? I highly doubt it so I don't think anyone else should either.

    lol
    when Jesse feels the need to apologize, he sends Chuck Norris. Nothing says " I'm sorry" better than a full roundhouse kick to the skull. >:)o:):D
    Or SEAL Team Six....
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 33,065
    nickster wrote: »
    Thank you. A broader point... do you guys think the era of Bluray is coming to an end with the popularity of internet deliverable content. And a side point... with Sony 4K TV when will there actually be 4K content available and will it be internet deliverable or on fixed media? Thank you again, as I say, I am really new to this world.

    Sony probably has the most 4k material available right now on their media player. However, that player isn't cheap either....Samsung has their own version. Thing is, that 4k label will cost you money. Would you pay 30-50 bucks for a 4k movie on Blu-ray ? I wouldn't....I'm still waiting for broadcast TV to go full 1080P.

    The internet has limited bandwidth.....as does streaming, so don't expect a big library of 4k material to be available soon. They want you to buy the material, not rent it or get it for free.

    Blu-ray will still be around, just like plain old DVD players are. With the cost of a decent BRP these days being so cheap, it's not something that will break the bank if the technology ever bites the dust.

    I maintain that....you don't buy a 4k tv for 4k viewing, you buy it for the upscaling of program material available today. So buy the tv with the best upscalers, and those are Sony and Samsung's 8-9000 series.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • Thank you. I am glad I got the Sony 4K as the upscaling seems pretty amazing. It is a 65" model and I love it. Viewing Blurays on it is great, but I sold the majority of my Bluray collection a few years ago thinking everything will go internet. I'm also a big Apple user and am fully in their system - so the apple tv makes sense for me. I have a few hundred purchased movies on that and with it offering 7.1 I'm sticking with it (even though the 7.1 does not work right). One more question. I have side surrounds but am not using the rear surrounds. But even without using the read surrounds it is still worthwhile to connect my second SUB (rear)?
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 33,065
    That all depends on your preferences. Personally I'd rather have 2 subs up front than spread out front to back....providing they are the same subs. If not the same it can sound funky.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • Gatecrasher
    Gatecrasher Posts: 1,550
    tonyb wrote: »
    That all depends on your preferences. Personally I'd rather have 2 subs up front than spread out front to back....providing they are the same subs. If not the same it can sound funky.

    You know, I've been experimenting around with subwoofer placement and I like my system a little better with one PSW650 up front to the left and the other in the right rear (diagonal). It's not that they didn't sound good when I had them both up front though. I just like having some subsonics behind the seating.

    I think having two pairs of SRTs up front help too.
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 33,065
    You should get some buttkickers for under the couch then, rattle the nuts a bit. lol
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • Gatecrasher
    Gatecrasher Posts: 1,550
    tonyb wrote: »
    You should get some buttkickers for under the couch then, rattle the nuts a bit. lol

    I don't think I could handle it. When I crank mine up now it vibrates the seats and makes my back itch. I have a wooden backscratcher in the drawer of the center console and I'm constantly grabbing it if it is up too high. I have to turn the rear sub down a tad so it doesn't drive me nuts. But boy does it sound good!
  • avalanche
    avalanche Posts: 7
    edited December 2015
    Howdy,
    I am new to this nice forum and came upon this discussion AFTER i "bi-amped" my polk RTI A3. I am using a YAMAHA 675 and it has been driving those speakers for 2 years. Feeling bored yesterday I bi-amped the speakers using the two back surround channels.
    I wouldn't swear on it, but I think it sounds better and louder. This is my opinion. It definately doesn't sound any worse so I am not reverting the change.

    My question is, since you do not gain any more power by using the bi-amp mode in AVRs, why so many of them offer this option?

    By the way, this is what the manual says clearly that when you use bi-amp connection tweeter and woofer are driven by two amplifiers resulting in clearer sound...
  • soundfreak1
    soundfreak1 Posts: 3,414
    Marketing
    Main Rig:
    Krell KAV 250a biamped to mid/highs
    Parasound HCA1500A biamped to lows
    Nakamichi EC100 Active xover
    MIT exp 1 ic's
    Perreaux SA33 class A preamp
    AQ kingcobra ic's
    OPPO 83 CDP
    Lehmann audio black cube SE phono pre, Audioquest phono wire (ITA1/1)
    Denon DP-1200 TT. AToc9ML MC cart.
    Monster HTS 3600 power conditioner
    ADS L1590/2 Biamped
    MIT exps2 speaker cable
  • avalanche
    avalanche Posts: 7
    edited December 2015
    Marketing

    file:///C:/Users/George/Downloads/web_YG260B0_EN_RX-A3040_RX-A2040_om_UCRABGLF_En%20(1).pdf

    Yamaha manuals do not make any power benefit claims, but they say this setup offers better sound quality! Also it clearly says it is using four internal amplifiers. Are these false claims?

    My ears seem to confirm these claims. Hope its not placebo..
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,679
    edited December 2015
    avalanche wrote: »
    Marketing

    file:///C:/Users/George/Downloads/web_YG260B0_EN_RX-A3040_RX-A2040_om_UCRABGLF_En%20(1).pdf

    Yamaha manuals do not make any power benefit claims, but they say this setup offers better sound quality! Also it clearly says it is using four internal amplifiers. Are these false claims?

    My ears seem to confirm these claims. Hope its not placebo..

    The issue is all those channels (notice I didn't say amplifiers) are drawing from the same power supply, so they are really not separate amplifiers and as such one cannot truely bi-amp. It would best be described as ghetto bi-amping. What many folks don't understand is the more channels you use in your AVR, the less wpc it is capable of providing. It's not uncommon for an AVR to be rated at say 120wpc, but that's with only 2 channels (sometimes only one) driven. By the time you have 5 channels driven the wpc drops to 70, for example. 7 channels driven will drop it down even more, say to 50wpc. There are some AVR's capable of putting out their rated power with 5 channels driven, but they are far and few between. Unfortunately, yours isn't one of them.

    True bi-amping requires separate amplifiers, each with its own power supply and very important, the use of active crossovers.

    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • Gatecrasher
    Gatecrasher Posts: 1,550
    edited December 2015
    avalanche wrote: »
    Marketing

    file:///C:/Users/George/Downloads/web_YG260B0_EN_RX-A3040_RX-A2040_om_UCRABGLF_En%20(1).pdf

    Yamaha manuals do not make any power benefit claims, but they say this setup offers better sound quality! Also it clearly says it is using four internal amplifiers. Are these false claims?

    My ears seem to confirm these claims. Hope its not placebo..

    It's not a 100% false claim but rather more of a matter of semantics. Basically you are using two driven channels from the receiver to drive one speaker array. Some of the people on this forum will attempt to belittle you but the bottom line is what you are most-likely accomplishing is send more power to each speaker depending on your receiver setup. Is it really true "bi-amping"? No, not really because you don't have an active crossover but it can make a noticeable improvement and that is why Polk offers the option on almost all of the speakers they sell and almost all electronic companies offer it too. Using the term as loosely as they do is part marketing gimmick but there is still some possible benefit by running two driven channels from a receiver to the same speaker depending on how the receiver is operating.

    I used to have my Polks set-up to the Pioneer Elite "bi-amp" feature and they did sound better. An improvement that you don't have to convince yourself of, unlike bi-wiring or "breaking your speaker wires in" which requires a little imagination to convince yourself that there really is an audible improvement. Any so-called improvement that you have to convince yourself of over time or one that people claim can only be heard by youngsters because ears of people over 40 can't detect it, isn't worth pursuing. That's the real "placebo".

    So to end the marketing gimmick aspect of it and not to further "offend" some audiophiles in this world who seem to get their panites in a wad over the subject, the industry should probably call it something else to differentiate passive bi-amping and using two separate channels from a receiver to drive one speaker array from true bi-amping.

    Basically you are just wiring up your receiver differently and if you can hear an improvement who really cares what anyone else thinks. The same goes for baking your speaker wires in an oven. If it works for you that's all that really matters. I'd rather have a set-up that I think sounds great and I enjoy than to build one just to win the approval of anyone.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on
  • Thanks for your replies!

    I do "think" there is a difference in SQ especially in the midrange. I also definately did not observe any loss in loudness. I live in an appartment so I rarely play music higher than -20db. I am gonna keep it like this.


    Theoritical discussion:

    Even though I get your point about "true" bi-amp I do not understand why bi-amp is only when you use active crossovers. I had a car system where my mb quart speakers passive xover could have two input channels. So i had one amp for the tweeter and one for the woofer. Why this is not bi-amp? The only difference in an active xover system would be (excluding configurability) to avoid the losses in the passive xover, correct?
  • soundfreak1
    soundfreak1 Posts: 3,414
    The point of "biamping" is control of freq to each driver. A woofer can not reproduce high freq, it is designed to roll off at say 1500 k ( diff with different drivers) tweets at different and higher freq. In my system I set the external xover at 1k and under to the woofer going to one amp and 1k and over to the tweets thru a different amp. This way the woofer doesn't even see any freq above its range so it doesn't have to deal with "sound it can't deal with" same with the tweets. The result is control of the sound each driver is capable of reproducing and not with the sound it can't deal with. Without an external and adjustable xover this is done by the speaker xover and is static and not controllable and your stuck with what the original designer wanted and it may be correct for your amp, room, pre, not to mention like and dislikes. With the active xover I can experiment with freq that work best for me and my equip. In each driver. When done this way the results are nothing short or amazing.
    Main Rig:
    Krell KAV 250a biamped to mid/highs
    Parasound HCA1500A biamped to lows
    Nakamichi EC100 Active xover
    MIT exp 1 ic's
    Perreaux SA33 class A preamp
    AQ kingcobra ic's
    OPPO 83 CDP
    Lehmann audio black cube SE phono pre, Audioquest phono wire (ITA1/1)
    Denon DP-1200 TT. AToc9ML MC cart.
    Monster HTS 3600 power conditioner
    ADS L1590/2 Biamped
    MIT exps2 speaker cable
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,679
    avalanche,

    This will address any and all questions you may have about bi-amping. Enjoy!

    http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 33,065
    edited December 2015
    Avalanche,

    Bi-amp functions on avr's .....eh, more marketing gimmicks than real world use. F1NUT explained all that need be said.

    I'll add though, what ever you try in audio, if it makes a difference to you, perceived or not, roll with it. Don't listen to the naysayers, they can't hear with your ears. It's about what you enjoy, not what someone else says you should or shouldn't.

    Experiment a bit, try different things....brands, cables, gear...etc., until you find what works for you and is pleasing to your ears.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • Stick to the subject and leave the personal jibes out of it.
  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzTV_vABhSQ

    Listen after minute 9. If this guy is for real he is explaining how bi-amping in AVR started.

    Side question: How can I compare the power supply capability of an avr receiver from the specs?
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 33,065
    edited December 2015
    "Side question: How can I compare the power supply capability of an avr receiver from the specs? "

    ....as compared to what ? Pay attention to specs first off. In AVR's, lots of gimmicks. It may list a receivers power as 100 WATTS per channel, but only one or 2 channels driven. Anyone buy a surround receiver to only play 1 or 2 channels ? Some may list it as "all channels " driven, even that is suspect. Look at the build, if it uses a 450 watt transformer, which a lot of AVR's do, how can it put out 100 watts to 5 or 7 channels ?

    All those channels, as explained early on, use one power supply that they all share. The more channels you use, the less power each channel is able to receive. There's more to it than that but generally speaking.

    Some may also say they can drive 4 ohm speakers. What that means in receiver speak is that they limit the current provided so the power supply doesn't overheat. Well, speakers thrive on current, especially 4 ohm speakers, so that is too a marketing gimmick.

    You have to kind of wade through the B.S. with marketing and whats real world knowledge. A manufacturer wants to sell stuff, bottom line.

    When it comes to receivers, the higher up the model chain you go, the better the power supply, usually, but that comes at a cost. You always want to buy a receiver with pre-outs that would enable you to add a separate amplifier should you feel the need for more power.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,499
    Most tests are done at 1khz
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
  • tonyb wrote: »
    When it comes to receivers, the higher up the model chain you go, the better the power supply, usually, but that comes at a cost. You always want to buy a receiver with pre-outs that would enable you to add a separate amplifier should you feel the need for more power.

    That's true! Having a pre-out is a very nice feature to have. Unfortunately I realized about this after I bought mine.