Just sad

F1nut

cnh wrote: »

There is actually a simple solution to this problem. But no one wants to talk about it? FORCE corporations and businesses to settle in such areas and transform the economic landscape into one of hope and opportunity.

How about you being FORCED to teach in such areas, you're good with that, right? After all, education is a business.

cnh

Tony, you know I love you. But we don't agree here! Firstly, the history of human evolution does not agree with the concept of human nature which you derive from the modern industrial state society that gifted it to you. Cooperation and sharing is what allowed us to survive to the time of the Agricultural Revolution. So let's cool it with the idea that "everyone" is naturally competitive and greedy. The cross cultural evidence does not support that. And even small communities that we prize and value, that we defend and wish to keep Gov't out of are NOT that! Nor is your family or extended family or friends or even Club Polk!

Everything you say about Gov't can be equally applied to LARGE impersonal Corporations who are beholden to no one except shareholders who only expect PROFIT and no moral action from them!

Then you use the "personal" ploy to excuse yourself and others, a favorite among your group. It goes like this, how come you're not leading the charge to invest in these areas. Well, not everyone invests in all the questionable companies that exist in ones 401K, some of us look in there and divest of the worst of them.

Your side makes the Gov't the Darth Vader of this universe! And that's OK, right? But business can do no wrong, even when they produce cars that kill, products that poison, drugs that cause cancer, oil spills that destroy environments, economic crashes that destroy the average persons savings in a perfectly predictable cycle of greed.

When the Gov't is inefficient or corrupt that's bloody murder, but when business does the exact same thing or worse, well, "that's just human nature". Sorry but that's funny if it weren't morally offensive.

We have to stop talking about straw men and put EVERYTHING on that table. That includes BAD BUSINESS and BAD GOV'T.

The idea that Gov't regulation and taxes send jobs abroad doesn't hold water since there are nations where taxes are lower and are more business friendly that ALSO have their jobs going abroad because these corporation are NOT American, they are MULTI-NATIONAL. Don't give a hoot about nation states. And NO state, NO gov't can do anything about that, it's been happening for decades under all kinds of administrations--Republican and Democrat.

The idea that Corps. don't need to be "regulated" is historically laughable. It's like saying that we should jettison Democracy and let the A-holes in D.C. do whatever they want with NO consequences.

Finally, I proposed a solution that was PURELY economic in nature and involved NO taxes and minimal gov't above and your response was I don't think anyone ESPECIALLY corps should be "forced" to do anything. lol Let's let corps do whatever they want and see what kind of world that gives us. Don't you see they are PART of the PROBLEM as well as GOV'T.

The history of the corporation is that it tends toward monopoly, that is its goal. And we have laws against that, not because we love big gov't, but because history tells us that that is BAD!

The idea that there is the giant mass of individuals living off the fat of Gov't handouts does not have much empirical support. It's the cant of a certain generation that doesn't even know that most food stamps go to the elderly and the truly poor and that only a small percentage of those are scamming the system. And the same people who rail against welfare have NOTHING to say, NOT ONE WORD about CORPORATE WELFARE that involves Billions upon billions of dollars. Or the FACT that very few if any Giant CORPS actually pay as much in taxes as YOU or I. I remember when I was a poor Grad Student that paid $2000+ in taxes in the same year Citi bank paid nothing. In those days CITI charged all STUDENT accounts fees if you could not meet their minimum deposit, which most of us could not.

I don't disagree with you. It's just that you upset me when you only deal with HALF of the problem. Gov't AND CORPS! AND CORPS!

What's the problem? Corps are people right! So if they are then they can be as PROBLEMATIC as people in this society.

Reform is a MORAL issue. IT is not simply an economic one! Humans are moral beings. Therefore, CORPS must also be MORAL!

And that's the issue NO ONE wants to broach. But I can't imagine any human entity that gets a an exemption from ethics?

Obviously, many here see no ethical dimension to "business" and that is sad. If people should be "responsible" then so should business! Even more so.

All I'm saying is let business be as "responsible" as you want individuals to be, that IS also part of the solution. And nothing more. And I "honestly" do not believe that most here "disagree with that"! I really don't!

cnh

cnh

F1nut wrote: »

How about you being FORCED to teach in such areas, you're good with that, right? After all, education is a business.

Been there, done that, voluntarily. This logic is a common attempt to remove a real moral problem from the table by not dealing with it but by trying to reflect it back to the person that posed it. It's so predictable as to almost need no response. The New Testament is riddled with questions from Pharisees to Christ that are EXACTLY like this?

It seeks the lowest "standard" for moral action so as to allow for the status quo to continue even though it knows that is wrong.

Nothing new here. If it makes you feel better that's what is important here. But I know that you have a heart and quite a bit of compassion! And I will leave the discussion at that. We know what should be done. And everyone can do a 'little' bit and CORPS can do more because they are BIGGER! And Gov't can do less if that is what we want. But a balanced restraint between unbridled big Business and Giant Gov't is necessary--you all know that! It's not just Gov't!

That's enough of this for today!

cnh

F1nut

Your attempt to deflect my point failed miserably.

agfrost

BlueFox wrote: »

Nobody here has ever made a typo? Must be nice to be perfect.

Tony understands that people make mistakes. That's why he talked about walking "threw" doors towards the bottom of the last page, so that the Robeson High kids wouldn't feel so bad.

cnh

F1nut wrote: »

Your attempt to deflect my point failed miserably.

I'm glad you think so. But that does not matter because deep down inside there you "know" what I am talking about and I know you do because you're a "good" man!

cnh

steveinaz

You cannot force people to succeed. You are where you are, because you choose to be. You can also choose to be a victim.

My son scrapes by paycheck to paycheck, because he made bad decisions in the past, thinking he had it all figured out. However, I'm very proud of him because he is on zero government assistance, even though he qualifies for just about everything. Know why? He was brought up with my words that "it is not the taxpayers fault because YOU made poor decisions." Does it keep me up at night? You're damn right it does. Could I help, and do I want to help? You're damn right I do---but I would be doing it to make myself feel better; not of any benefit to him. That's the difference between a conservative and a liberal. We BOTH have a heart, it's the way we apply it that differs.

Give a man a fish, he eats today, teach a man to fish, he eats the rest of his life. You see, I won't be around forever, and my biggest fear is that he won't be on a path of real success/happiness before I'm worm food.

tonyb

Cnh,

I'm not going to address every issue you brought up, because theirs just too many side issues that would need to be started. I will say your jumping to the extremes of both sides of the coin though. Also your premise of morals applying to everything including businesses'....well, you of all people should know that you can't "force" morals on anyone or any entity.

Speaking of morals...that lends itself to another taboo subject.....religion. I think we can agree that a certain moral standard, regardless of where it comes from, is needed to hold the fabric of a lawful society together. If the many religions we have in this country are at least somewhat responsible for holding that fabric together, is it better or worse to promote religions then for society, and it's moral fabric, to help keep everything together ? If a moral standard, fiber, isn't promoted in our society....then what else do you expect society to become ? However we don't promote a moral fiber and as a matter of fact we frown on it in todays society.

I've said many times on another forum, maybe here too, that everything is intertwined. Like we say in audio...it all starts at the source. Well, same for life....it all starts at the source. Your home, parents, upbringing....your peers....education, etc. Then we move into "everything matters". To grow a child into an adult many things become influential in that process....good and bad.

Human societies over history have always had poor and wealthy...ours is no different. People are not created equal, thus trying to equalize that out later in life by playing Robin Hood and stealing from the rich and simply giving to the poor never worked out. The poor always lived a temporary lifestyle boost but in the end, remained poor.

BTW, I will take issue with your assertion that food stamp fraud isn't as big as some suggests. It is pal, and I can tell you from my own experiences that I personally know more fraud takers than deserving recipients by a factor of 5 to 1.

steveinaz

Tony,
The food stamp program of old used to be relatively low in fraud, UNTIL they changed to the EBT card. Now the fraud, waste & abuse is climbing significantly.

sucks2beme

How far can a typo go?
Seems pretty far here on club Polk

nspindel

That is not a typo. If you type "Out" instead of "Our" it's a typo. You hit the wrong key. "Are" instead of "Our" is stupidity. Huge difference.

BlueFox

nspindel wrote: »

That is not a typo. If you type "Out" instead of "Our" it's a typo. You hit the wrong key. "Are" instead of "Our" is stupidity. Huge difference.

Since we do not know the context, it could very well have been intentional. As in a joke. Even if inadvertent it doesn't mean anything in general, just that one person made a grammar error. Everybody here our sometimes wrong.

txcoastal1

steveinaz wrote: »

You cannot force people to succeed. You are where you are, because you choose to be. You can also choose to be a victim.

Those are the people with "poor me syndrome"

madmax

Why is it that we keep paying more and education keeps declining? I went to crappy buildings with very little equipment throughout the 12th grade and we learned. Of course I never did learn how to protect fruit against sex diseases, guess that could come in handy...

westmassguy

steveinaz wrote: »

Tony,
The food stamp program of old used to be relatively low in fraud, UNTIL they changed to the EBT card. Now the fraud, waste & abuse is climbing significantly.

It's so rampant here in Taxachusetts, you wouldn't believe.

westmassguy

madmax wrote: »

Why is it that we keep paying more and education keeps declining? I went to crappy buildings with very little equipment throughout the 12th grade and we learned. Of course I never did learn how to protect fruit against sex diseases, guess that could come in handy...

Same here. My High School was built in 1898. No AC, either too much or not enough heat. BTW it's now been converted to luxury apartments.

fossy

arrrrrrrrr u single tonight ? gotta be a inside joke

Mikey081057

That is sofa king we tod did

ken brydson

Tommorrow... Wipes tear..