MartyCube... Lets get ready to CRANK THE BASS!!!!!!!!

EndersShadow

ZLTFUL wrote: »

Hey Dan, just a thought (and probably not ideal but worth a shot), why not run the fronts as large/full range and see what happens?

In order to do that I have to turn "double" bass on and then its tends to bloat the low end from what I rememeber. I may try that for giggles tonight and run a sweep to see.

EndersShadow

ZLTFUL wrote: »

I am hating your AVR more and more each day!

LOL, can you imagine how much I like it

PS my free time just died as my niece is sick so the 4 of them (MIL, Niece, Daughter, Wife) are not going to the movies.....

EndersShadow

I saved my REW sweeps because I thought I might want some other pics of the graphs.

This is what I am talking about, notice that from 80-90hz the decent dip. I'm trying to combat that if possible.

I do want to take a sweep of just the main L/R + sub instead of All channel stereo. I think that codec might be throwing things off since my surrounds (which are closer to the mic) are also set at 100hz instead of 80.

EndersShadow

So quick update. I haven't had time to run more graphs but for giggles and to appease @ZLTFUL so he would stop blowing up my phone with texts (kidding bro ) I moved the Fronts from 80hz down to 40. I left the LFE at 80 and since they were not "full range" the double bass setting is still off.

I'm not sure what this will look like graph wise but since its raining here today and I cant put another 20k on my bike with Skye tonight I am going to try and run some more sweeps to see how its improved my setup...

I'd also like to publicly THANK @ZLTFUL for selling me the AS EQ1 he no longer needs since his new Denon X4100 has XT32 and SubEQ. It arrived later on Monday instead of Saturday so I haven't had time to set it up.

My goal is to hopefully be able to use JUST the SVS unit to dial in my sub. I am going to pull the MiniDSP from the loop and see how the SVS does.

I know one person whose running BOTH these items in his setup and he told me he uses the SVS to dial things in and get them flat and then the MiniDSP to create a shelf house curve. This *may* be the route I take, but I'm not sure.

For now the AS-EQ1 will keep me sub at least dialed in good while I wait till my next AVR gets purchased for XT32 and SubEQ which will render the AS-EQ1 duplicative and it will get sold. It looks like my new AVR will be purchased either late this year, or possibly waiting for 2016 new models to drop the prices on the 2015's I'm looking at now. I'm also not sure if I should wait for HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0 or not, but thats another thread.

I will post graphs when I have them of the new 40hz mains crossover (hopefully tonight), and then take screenshots of the pre and post Audyssey graphs once I have them (likely next weekend at the earliest).

oldrocker

After reading all the data and analyzing everything that has been posted.
I have to say, I have NO clue what you guys are talking about. "deer in the headlight" look here. So if I may offer one little tidbit, Crank it and rock the foundation.....

EndersShadow

ZLTFUL wrote: »

Looking forward to seeing how these changes work out for you.

Also, don't be surprised if the Sub EQ is crossed over a little higher than you suspect. I found with the Denon that Audessey likes to roll it off a little higher to keep the transition from subs to mains flatter.

Can SubEQ be crossed over HIGHER than the LFE setting in the AVR?

EndersShadow

oldrocker wrote: »

After reading all the data and analyzing everything that has been posted.
I have to say, I have NO clue what you guys are talking about. "deer in the headlight" look here. So if I may offer one little tidbit, Crank it and rock the foundation.....

. Basically looking for a flat response if possible with the device so that the SPL doesnt vary much between frequencies...

Think how the commercials used to be MUCH louder than the TV show so you had to keep turning it down when they came on...

Kinda like that.....

A shelf/house curve is basically a linear boost the lower you go to a certain frequency, any anywhere after that the response is FLAT.... here is a decent example picture



And a BUNCH of good reading here

EndersShadow

ZLTFUL wrote: »

Dan,
Here is my understanding as the AS-EQ1 works slightly different than it does on the Denon.
When you are running your setup program, it gets to the sub section. The AS-EQ1 takes over at that point to EQ the subs. When it is complete, it sends a "flat" return to your AVR's room correction for the full LFE range. I think that is 180hz tops on down?

You will have an easier time with it than I would since you have REW and the mic to test between tweaks.

Yeah but 32 points aint exactly a quick thing to do either lol.....

oldrocker

Thanks for the info and description. I wish I knew what you guys so easily know...

EndersShadow

oldrocker wrote: »

Thanks for the info and description. I wish I knew what you guys so easily know...

I wouldn't say "know"..... I'd say I'm fast with the google ....

And I post a lot of different places to get my info..... what can I say... I get around

oldrocker

My jealousy is the best form of flattery I can give... at my age. D'oh...

EndersShadow

I realized I never posted a "after" graph from running the SVS AS-EQ1 I got from Ryan....

The sub blends in much better with my mains, however there is still a problem around the 90hz range that hopefully my next AVR will solve since my AVR EQ is now the limiting factor.

Sorry for the crappy picture.... my laptop blew up recently and so this is from a text I sent Ryan after I ran the EQ. I will find a better picture later tonight to post.

EndersShadow

ZLTFUL wrote: »

I can't remember if I ever asked you Dan, did you do the DB840s on the 15s?

Long time ago

EndersShadow

ZLTFUL wrote: »

Ok. I would think that would have fixed any hole but like you said...maybe it just is your AVR that is the limiting factor here with the crossover points.

Yeah I think it's something else......

EndersShadow

So quick update on things....

I love the sub as it is... but well, in this hobby you get used to something then you want to do better

I'm thinking hard about upgrading my driver from the current one (Stereo Integrity HT-15 dual 2 ohm sub wired for 4 ohms) to their newest driver the HST-15.

The HST-15 can handle 1500 watts RMS, has over 4" of travel, 3" of that linear. That translates into a MASSIVE difference of SPL in the sub 20hz arena, and importantly lets me turn off my existing subsonic filter and run this thing in my current box all the way down to 3hz........

Additionally as it can handle all my current amp can take and then some, there might be an upgrade to something like a Crown XLS 1500 (bridged for 1550 watts @ 4 ohms) in my future as well.

Will post some graphs later, but lets just say this thing measures about 3db more SPL from 80hz to 20 give or take (using just my existing amp) and then it changes drastically in my favor below 20hz.

I'm not sure how low the SVS AS-EQ1 will measure and correct so there may be a limiting factor there, but I'm not sure.

Alternatively may try to build another sub to go duals since the price for that is about the same as this upgrade, however I'd still need a different amp since my Dayton can only drive down to 4 ohms.

EndersShadow

Couple pictures of the beast (the 18" is pictured though I'd use the 15".






Here are side by sides of the original HT-18 (mine is the 15" model of this) against the new HST-18

HT-18



HST-18






Surround doesnt look too crazy on the 18", but on the 11" driver hehehe.... diff story


stereointegrity.com/wp-content/uploads/HST11Side.jpg

EndersShadow

Ok, so I'm coming back around to what I actually want, which is to plumb the depths of LFE with a monster sub. The designer of the sub has flat out told me to ignore a subsonic filter on this sub as it ends up handicapping it greatly. As such I started playing with PEQ in WinISD and stopped looking at max spl at max gain but more about pulling up the under 20hz stuff since I have enough gain up high for what I need, its low down that I want to add.

If I go with just ~400 watts of gain (with the other 4 - 600 for headroom) I can throw a 5 db gain on the sub at 25 hz which brings the bottom end up considerably and lets me get around 100 db @ 13hz and still be at 90 db @ 10hz, both not accounting for room gain.

Now this is over the THX Reference level of 85 db so I know I would be fine. With this and WITHOUT a subsonic filter the driver reaches XMax (33.5) at around 13hz and never reaches XMech which is ~50mm.

I think this is the better option as I want to work on the below 20hz stuff. So I am thinking this sub is in my future.

I had 2 other thoughts.

One was to try to buy 2 of the HST-11 drivers since they really like a small sealed box and can dig about as low as the 15" driver. I could try to get the wife onboard since I'd be getting rid of the really big sub for 2 much smaller (easier to place and dial in) subs. Problem with this is that I'd also need to upgrade my amp to a pro amp which then may result in additional wiring to make sure I provide enough voltage at the input to use the full volume of the amp if needed. And then I'd need really heavy boxes as I can see the sub walking around. This is the most costly option.

Second option - buy another 3 or 4 cubic foot box for the HST driver. It likes sealed alignments better and can do smaller boxes than most 15" drivers. I could still use PEQ, but I'd need a lot more wattage to get the same SPL as the ported sub, but never risk hitting XMax or XMech on the sub. Issue is I'd need some serious wattage to pull up the bottom end with PEQ and I'd be needing to upgrade my amp which isnt really in the budget. I could re-use my current sub in my office in the back corner and never need another sub for my stereo setup ever hehehe.....

gp4jesus

At the risk of igniting mudslinging, use robust wire to connect that driver to its power source

EndersShadow

gp4jesus wrote: »

At the risk of igniting mudslinging, use robust wire to connect that driver to its power source

You mean like Audioquest FL/X 14/4 doubled up for the amp to sub , and with 12 gauge Furez interior wiring for each binding post

WLDock

gp4jesus wrote: »

At the risk of igniting mudslinging, use robust wire to connect that driver to its power source

Oh come on....no one would debate the use of heavy gauge wire for subs. Everyone from teenagers running a couple of Funky Pups in their Honda Civic to a diehard home theateraphiles running four Stereo Integrity HS24 24″ powered by 8400 watts from two Crown XTi 6002 amps. All are going to use a heavier gauge wire...no reason what so ever to think Dan/Ender was using undersized wire....nothing to talk about.


I say Dan sell me the HT-15 (Will have more space when I move! Can you say duals?) and you move on to a pair of those MONSTERS!

EndersShadow

WLDock wrote: »

I say Dan sell me the HT-15 (Will have more space when I move! Can you say duals?) and you move on to a pair of those MONSTERS!

HA....... I wont rule anything out. I need to get the WinISD models for the smaller subs to see. My issue is then I'm looking at a lot of cost as duals would require a different amp so I could EQ each one independently.

I'm also not sure if I'd go with dual HST-15, or maybe the smaller HST-11's as they can get by in ridiculously small ported boxes......

Below are some graphs of the best case for each driver. The HST-15 is in Red and the current HT-15 is in green. I should note this is not accounting for room gain at all. Before I do anything I'd go ahead and run some sweeps in my room to see just what the room maps like with my current sub as far as gain goes. Overall my objective is to dig quite a bit lower, and if possible re-use my current amp and box, and if nothing else my amp with smaller dual subs so I can locate them were I want. Dual opposed while cool would end up still being just one sub and I'd prefer 2 small or one really big one.

SPL

This graph is the HST-15 driver at 325 watts (needed to ensure it doesnt clip the amp) and the HT-15 at 800 watts which is where it would start to reach XMech, so its the best case for both drivers and the HST barely loses in the upper frequencies, but destroys it lower.



Cone Excursion

The HT-15 never reaches max excursion thanks to the subsonic filter. The HST-15 without the subsonic filter reaches XMax and then almost XMech at the very bottom of the frequency range



Port Velocity

This is a concern to me given the likelihood the HST-15 will chuff the port at lower frequencies, and the lower frequencies are all I would be buying it for.



Amp Load

The HST-15 driver can handle a ton more wattage than my amp can give it. The PEQ applied to bring the bottom end up starts to get close to clipping the amp, hence the use of ONLY 325 watts on the driver. A pro amp with more wattage would be able to further the SPL differences in a much better way, however I'd be counting on the SVS-AS-EQ1 for everything as there would not be a PEQ filter to apply as I would likely go with a single Crown XLS-2000 so I could still use RCA and speaker wires rather than XLR & Speakon.



Group Delay

Not too well versed in how big a deal this actually is but the HST-15 models better than the HT-15, likely due to the additional wattage the HT-15 has



Here is a more fair comparison which is both drivers at the same wattage (325)





In looking at a complete rebuild in a sealed box the HST drivers really do want a decently small box and a lot of wattage to then use EQ to bring up the bottom end, very similar to the old Sunfire True Sub Junior's...

If I did a complete rebuild the 15 would be as big as I would go as the 18 needs more room than I would want to give it, and the cost is quite high. The HST-15 is 450 shipped and the HST-11 is 329 and the HST-12 350. So duals of the 15 would likely be a bit too much for me.

I could possibly see going with dual HST 11's in say a 2 or 3 cubic foot sealed box stuffed to the brim with polyfil and then a but ton of EQ to bring the bottom end back up, provided room gain wouldnt do that already.

EndersShadow

So the mic has come in, but so have my HTPC parts. For the next week I'm going to get my HTPC up and running. Then once installed in the HT I can install REW on it and use the mic better to measure things.

In the meantime I installed the newer version of WinISD. Per that program the HST in a sealed box (with the right PEQ) can spec ALMOST the same as the HT-15 in my ported box. These graphs are using my current Dayton SA-1000 amp, but putting the HST-15 in a sealed 3 cubic foot box (I'd buy the DIYSoundGroup one). With a bit of PEQ (the Dayton has one band of PEQ) at 30hz with a boost of 4.5db and a Q of 1 I basically overlap the top of my HT-15 graph, but then DESTROY it sub 20hz. All of this without Audyssey doing anything to either so its a apples to apples compare best I can.

All of this is with the amp load (VA) under 900 watts and with excursion well within limits. Meaning for the HST Audyssey could add some boosts as needed and not have to worry about bottoming out the driver.


Eventually I'd look for a decent pro amp to replace the Dayton, and either just trust Audyssey XT32 to do its thing (will be upgrading to a Denon X4100 soon) or use a MiniDSP (again) and then Audyssey to ensure it gets as low as it can as flat as it can.

If I did go with a new box the one thing I would do from the start is wire it for a Speak-On connection as well as regular binding posts, so I can run a pro amp or a regular one without requiring any adapters to do so.


Graphs below. These are really low because I set the distance to 10 feet since thats about the distance from the sub to the main seating area.


HST-15 in RED, HT-15 in BLACK

SPL:



Excursion:



Amp load:

EndersShadow

Just rub it in a bit more.... please...... just go ahead