Bi-Wire Analysis

PolkThug
PolkThug Posts: 7,532
edited February 2004 in Basic Hookup/Wiring Questions
I'm trying to take the human factor out of bi-wire analysis. This is a work in progress (and a very time consuming one at that).
Never Forget
Post edited by PolkThug on
· Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
«1

Comments

  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,987
    edited February 2004
    So if the blinky lights on the screen look different, that means it sounds better? How do the blinky lights correspond to the human interface, hearing?

    What's your control group?

    Are you using the same guage / brand single wire vs bi-wire?

    Have fun!
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited February 2004
    whats the freq band of your mic?

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited February 2004
    I don't plan on using any words like "better", etc. I'm looking at consistent differences across the audible spectrum* and also db levels. I will probably narrow down the spectrum range.

    Wire is the same.

    Using Frank Sinatra your nobody til somebody loves you, or at least the first 11 seconds of it.

    Yeah, I'm trying to keep it fun without turning into the mad scientist. I just think it would be neat to find measurable inconsistencies.

    Regards,
    PolkThug

    *edit I don't think the mic goes that high, that's ok though.
    Never Forget
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited February 2004
    Originally posted by HBombToo
    whats the freq band of your mic?

    HBomb

    Not quite sure yet. I just need a good slice of the audible spectrum, if it can't hear it all, that's ok. Appears to get at least from 0 to 11khz. Can't really tell without a test tone.
    Never Forget
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • PolkWannabie
    PolkWannabie Posts: 2,763
    edited February 2004
    I've seen some interesting discussions in a variety of threads at audiocircle and elsewhere discussing what electronic measuring devices record .vs. what ears hear. There seems to be a fair amount of disagreement about whether or not the electronic measuring devices measure all the things that the human ear hears. Interesting and complex topic.
    Rick
    HT+ Sunfire TG IV, Dual CG Sig II's, CinePro 1K2, Oppo 981, Audio Technica PL120, Polk SRT's & F/X1000's, Samsung 71" DLP
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited February 2004
    Originally posted by PolkWannabie
    Interesting and complex topic.

    Agreed!!!

    Also makes a nice scapegoat:

    Golden Ears: "I can hear a huge difference after bi-wiring."
    Scientist: "My equipment shows no difference."
    Golden Ears: "Your microphone is inferior to my ears!"

    Regards,
    PolkThug
    Never Forget
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited February 2004
    Originally posted by PolkThug
    Golden Ears: "I can hear a huge difference after bi-wiring."
    Scientist: "My equipment shows no difference."
    Golden Ears: "Your microphone is inferior to my ears!"
    Looks like copy out of a Monster Cable ad...
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • wlrandall
    wlrandall Posts: 440
    edited February 2004
    Oh, yeah?? My microphones ARE my ears:

    hms31.jpg
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • PolkWannabie
    PolkWannabie Posts: 2,763
    edited February 2004
    Although I tend to lean to the analytical/scientific side of doing things, I certainly qualify as one of the ones who wonders if our collective test equipment is measuring the same things as we are hearing. This seems to be most pronounced lately in topics relating to Pro type amplifiers especially the ones based on tripath technology. The measurers say, can't be, but the listeners have a whole different perspective. This even seems to be true when the the measurers and the listeners are the same people. Makes you wonder.

    I'd be happy to get behind the proponents of biwiring if their preference after their listening was based on listening alone with no advance knowledge of what they were listening to. Short of those types of conditions I can't say I have a whole lot of confidence in the reported results.
    Rick
    HT+ Sunfire TG IV, Dual CG Sig II's, CinePro 1K2, Oppo 981, Audio Technica PL120, Polk SRT's & F/X1000's, Samsung 71" DLP
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited February 2004
    Originally posted by PolkWannabie
    I'd be happy to get behind the proponents of biwiring if their preference after their listening was based on listening alone with no advance knowledge of what they were listening to. Short of those types of conditions I can't say I have a whole lot of confidence in the reported results.

    My fiance is one of these people. I'm trying to measure what she hears. I don't know if I really can hear a difference myself, because I always know how my speakers are wired (placebo effect).
    Never Forget
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,200
    edited February 2004
    Look,
    eff the test,eff the spec's eff all the stupid crap you read online.Eff the articles that say our wire is better then there because...................

    Bottom line is this,I'll back this up as I was about to explode....

    Bottom line is it's about sound quality.It doesn't matter what Mr.Effin Smith did to create the ultimate wire,it matter what YOU the LISTENER hear in the end result.I don't care who made the wires,I want to hear results not read what a computer and mic has to say.
    Ask yourself this,can a computer program hear the richer tone of a guitar?How about the crisp sound of a Picalo snare drum?The emotional melody of a female voice......these things I feel can't be measured other then your own.........

    Bi wiring bi wirinng.does it make a difference or not?Is wire worth the extra cost?

    Ask me my opnion and I'll tell you how I feel about it.

    Mantis
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • PolkWannabie
    PolkWannabie Posts: 2,763
    edited February 2004
    So ? ...
    Rick
    HT+ Sunfire TG IV, Dual CG Sig II's, CinePro 1K2, Oppo 981, Audio Technica PL120, Polk SRT's & F/X1000's, Samsung 71" DLP
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited February 2004
    Originally posted by mantis
    Look,
    ...eff the test
    ...as I was about to explode....
    ...I want to hear results not read what a computer and mic has to say.

    :confused:

    If people can hear differences in sound, don't you think there is just maybe a slim chance that these differences in sound can be measured? And I'm not saying that my equipment can accomplish this, I'm just having fun. Its MY test.

    Don't explode over something I'm doing in my basement. ;)

    Regards,
    PolkThug
    Never Forget
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • gidrah
    gidrah Posts: 3,049
    edited February 2004
    I love it. Depending on the conclusivity of your results I would be really pleased if you signed up for the cable swap program.


    BTW - As soon as somebody comes up with a microphone (and matching hard/software) that can match the human ear within the audible range, that thing will be in high demand.
    Make it Funky! :)
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited February 2004
    Don't they use microphones to record music???
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited February 2004
    Originally posted by Tour2ma
    Don't they use microphones to record music???

    Bingo!
    Never Forget
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited February 2004
    The science guys also can tell you that humans are at their peak hearing around the age of fourteen after that its all down hill.
    Maybe that is why the younger ones like stacking speakers but thats another thread.

    So the sound wave hits the eardrum (a variable dependent upon on age and use) vibrates three small bones which are about the same size as when we were born ( another variable) these bones activate very small hairs of which thousands of them would still not make up the diameter of one hair on your head. These little hairs do not grow or replace themselves they simply die off and cannot be replaced. They are so small that the vibrations from the bones make them stretch one way or another dependent upon the frequency. Our brains are able to interpret these little movements as sound. Depending on how they move determines whether you hear an explosion or a perfect C note ot some other sound. These little hairs apparently are the biggest variable of all within each of our ears.

    So if we each hear sounds just a little bit differently because of our own internal "equipment" then it just seems to follow that some people would like the sounds of biwirng some might not.
    If you want to use scopes to determine biwire differences, cool have at it, post up your findings.

    Next, How does ear wax effect stereo dimensional array?:D

    BTW I always like the wire threads, one got me hooked on this forum, lots of passion in both camps.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • PhantomOG
    PhantomOG Posts: 2,409
    edited February 2004
    Originally posted by mantis
    Look,
    eff the test,eff the spec's eff all the stupid crap you read online.Eff the articles that say our wire is better then there because...................

    Bottom line is this,I'll back this up as I was about to explode....

    Bottom line is it's about sound quality.It doesn't matter what Mr.Effin Smith did to create the ultimate wire,it matter what YOU the LISTENER hear in the end result.I don't care who made the wires,I want to hear results not read what a computer and mic has to say.
    Ask yourself this,can a computer program hear the richer tone of a guitar?How about the crisp sound of a Picalo snare drum?The emotional melody of a female voice......these things I feel can't be measured other then your own.........

    Bi wiring bi wirinng.does it make a difference or not?Is wire worth the extra cost?

    Ask me my opnion and I'll tell you how I feel about it.

    Mantis

    wow... who pissed in your wheaties?

    tell us what you find PolkThug, i'd be interested in reading it.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • gidrah
    gidrah Posts: 3,049
    edited February 2004
    Originally posted by Tour2ma
    Don't they use microphones to record music???

    Yes they do. I guess I need to work with the local med school for some NOS ears. See ya in Forbes.
    Make it Funky! :)
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • wallstreet
    wallstreet Posts: 1,405
    edited February 2004
    Damn, I guess I'll need to start trimming those new hairs coming out of my ears. Damn stuff shows up in the most awkward places.:(
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited February 2004
    :D:D:D Hair falling out of my head but growing everywhere else!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • wlrandall
    wlrandall Posts: 440
    edited February 2004
    Originally posted by mantis
    Ask yourself this,can a computer program hear the richer tone of a guitar?How about the crisp sound of a Picalo snare drum?The emotional melody of a female voice......these things I feel can't be measured other then your own.........

    Mantis

    As a matter of fact, it can. That "tone" is simply a particular frequency or bandwidth of a certain magnitude that will show up in plots like this:

    acholo.jpg

    Using plots like that one in conjunction with X-Y FFT plots allows us to determine the exact frequency and magnitude of any sound-pleasing or otherwise. Only problem for Joe Tweaker is that the system will set you back about $200K and you have to be an audio engineer to use it.

    Bottom line is as you said...whatever sounds the best to your own ears is what really matters. I just wanted to point out that there are tools that CAN measure a difference.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • kvm
    kvm Posts: 10
    edited February 2004
    There are actually two questions at hand here.

    1. Does bi-wiring make a difference?

    2. Is it worth it?

    This scientific approach is the only way to determine it but I'm not sure if it can be done.

    If I record a singer in any given room using a given set of equipment.

    Can I find a combination of equipment and wiring that I can use to replace the singer and get that exact same recording?

    That answers the ? of does it make a difference.

    Because it is not how good it sounds to you. It is does it sound exactly like the original. Is it worth it? depends on what it costs you to do it and can you hear the difference.
    Front RTI70's
    Center CSI40
    Bi-amped with a Marantz SR7300OSE and Marantz MM9000
    Rear FXI50's
    Sub PSW404
    HDTV Hitachi 57S500
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • PhantomOG
    PhantomOG Posts: 2,409
    edited February 2004
    Originally posted by kvm
    Because it is not how good it sounds to you. It is does it sound exactly like the original. Is it worth it? depends on what it costs you to do it and can you hear the difference.

    actually, i think you'll find the a lot of the bi-wire/boutique cable defenders *don't care* if it accurately reproduces the original recording, only that it "sounds better" to their golden ears.

    and you can't really argue with that now can you?? :confused:
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,645
    edited February 2004
    Originally posted by PhantomOG
    wow... who pissed in your wheaties?


    Gold Jerry, Pure Gold!!!
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,200
    edited February 2004
    Ok.......

    I got a question......What are you going to do with your findings when he smoke clears?
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • PolkWannabie
    PolkWannabie Posts: 2,763
    edited February 2004
    Posting them would be good along with hopefully some objective interpretation of them ...

    To illustrate my point before about diminishing returns and weakest link see this ... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14966&item=3078352230

    You don't want to be using these to drive speakers from your typical $1k receiver as for this kind of dollar$ you'll be much better served by getting a decent amp and possibly a pre-amp as well.
    Rick
    HT+ Sunfire TG IV, Dual CG Sig II's, CinePro 1K2, Oppo 981, Audio Technica PL120, Polk SRT's & F/X1000's, Samsung 71" DLP
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited February 2004
    I think the idea and tests are certainly worth doing, it sounds like a neat project. Is it going to prove anything definitively? No, but who cares, sheesh let the man experiment, he's not trying to cure cancer for gosh sakes.

    I would be interested in reading what comes out of the testing.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited February 2004
    Spectrum Analysis:
    Never Forget
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited February 2004
    grrr.. Nothing like shrinking a few MB down to 100k. The darkest blue is not showing up very well.
    Never Forget
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter