Best speaker cables?

2»

Comments

  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,981
    edited May 2014
    daboyz wrote: »
    Sorry guys but I'm going to have to differ on the Canare. It's a decent cable but I'd spend a little more and go with Doug's cables. well worth the extra investment. Then you decide if jumping way up the cable chain is worth it.

    Eh...it's not so much that you have a difference of opinion, it's simply that different price structures offer different gains in SQ. Pretty much everything in audio is set up that way, and other products outside audio too. That is, until you hit that point of diminishing returns, which differs with each of us.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • czarodzi
    czarodzi Posts: 38
    edited May 2014
    tonyb wrote: »
    You know this for a fact do you ?
    Got any electrical models to differentiate one design from another?
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,981
    edited May 2014
    czarodzi wrote: »
    Got any electrical models to differentiate one design from another?

    Got any electrical models that will differentiate soundstage width-height ? Any that measure air around notes, placement of instruments on a stage ?

    Your trying to equate science with subjectivity.....hasn't work out so well with science and religion either.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited May 2014
    villian wrote: »
    You'd be surprised at the difference between "Cheap" and "Expensive" speaker wiring ;) Try a coat hanger yet?

    I agree.

    I was very surprised at the difference in sound and measurable noise and distortion between "cheap" Monster XP speaker wire and "expensive" Monster Cable Z2 Reference and AudioQuest Volcano speaker cables.

    In the report below, I heard and measured a difference between the cheap XP wire and both of the more expensive speaker cables. However, I did not hear a difference between the two expensive speaker cables. It was not until I upgraded my electronics that I heard a difference between Monster Z2 Reference and better quality (and more expensive) speaker cable in that application.

    Measurements below are from this thread:

    The-AI-1-Dreadnought-Project-Pt.1

    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    Quantitative Results

    DN-1kHz-FFT-s.jpg
    Figure 15. 1000 Hz tone measured at speaker's SDA inputs with the
    Dreadnought using Z2 cables.

    In figure 14 the RMS magnitude of the SDA signal using the strap is 445 mV and the average RMS magnitude of the noise is 0.57 mv. In figure 15 the RMS magnitude of the SDA signal using the Dreadnought is 417 mV and the average RMS magnitude of the noise is 0.4 mv. At 1000 Hz, the noise magnitude in the SDA signal was much lower with the Dreadnought. The noise density was about the same as with the strap.

    As expected, the signal to noise ratio was significantly better when the monoblock amps were isolated from each other.

    DNXP-Volc002.jpg
    Figure 16. Just for grins, the Dreadnought's Monster Z2 Reference cables were replaced with Audioquest Volcano and then Monster XP.

    Volc1khzFFT-s.jpg
    Figure 17. 1000 Hz tone measured at speaker's SDA inputs with
    Audioquest Volcano speaker cables on the Dreadnought.

    XP1khzFFT001-s.jpg
    Figure 18. 1000 Hz tone measured at speaker's SDA inputs with
    Monster XP speaker cables on the Dreadnought.

    It is easier to see the differences in the 1000 Hz FFT plots (figs. 14, 15, 17, 18) if you save them and then click through them. While it is easy to see the decrease in noise as you go from the strap to the Dreadnought/Z2 to the Dreadnought/Volcanoes, the Dreadnought/Z2 and Dreadnought/XP plots (figures 15 and 18) appear very similar at first glance. However, the signal's DC component was 6 dB higher with the XP cables. The XP cables also had significantly more noise in the 2 kHz - 6 kHz region.

    DN-61Hz-Sine-a-s.jpg
    Figure 19. 61 Hz tone measured at speaker's SDA inputs with Monster
    Z2 Reference speaker cables on the Dreadnought.

    Str-61Hz-Sine-s.jpg
    Figure 20. 61 Hz tone measured at speaker's SDA inputs with Monster
    Z2 Reference speaker cables in the strapped configuration.

    Volc60khzsineone-s.jpg
    Figure 21. 60 Hz tone measured at speaker's SDA inputs with Audioquest
    Volcano speaker cables on the Dreadnought.

    XP60hzsineone-s.jpg
    Figure 22. 60 Hz tone measured at speaker's SDA inputs with Monster
    XP speaker cables on the Dreadnought. Nasty. Sounded nasty too.

    I learned a while ago that the quality and gauge of the wire carrying the SDA signal makes a big difference in the overall sound quality of the speaker and not just in the imaging and sound staging. I replaced the Dreadnought's Monster Z2 Reference cables ($3.78/foot) with Audioquest Volcano speaker cables ($206.25/foot) and then with Monster XP speaker cables ($1.00/foot). The XP was unpleasant to listen to. It was as if a bed sheet had been draped over the speakers. The bass was muddied a bit and the sound stage shrank by about three feet all around. The sound volume was also apparently lower. In addition to being a lower grade of copper, the 16 gauge conductors in the XP had 5.3X the resistance of the effective 9 gauge conductors of the Volcano and Z2 Reference cables.

    I did not hear a difference between the Z2 Reference and Volcano cables, even though the Volcanoes had a lower average noise spectrum density and magnitude. This seems to indicate that either there is an upper bound on improvement in sound quality with improvement in SDA cable quality or my equipment could not convey the difference or that my ears could not discern the difference.

    While I did not hear a difference or improvement with the use of a pair of $3300 cables on the Dreadnought, I did hear a moderate improvement when the Dreadnought was placed in its $200 aluminium enclosure. This was a pleasant surprise.
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,981
    edited May 2014
    I was holding your science and charts in my back pocket pal, you let the cat out of the bag. LOL
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    edited May 2014
    villian was peeking, yet not a word. Anyone surprised?
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,496
    edited May 2014
    That's been the case in a couple threads Jesse.
    Relayer-Big-O-Poster.jpg
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\
    My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee
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  • deafbykhorns
    deafbykhorns Posts: 150
    edited May 2014
    The bigger the better! Its all about retaining the amps damping factor.
    8/4 SOJ with a high strand count using your favorite connectors
    Main System- Scratch built 2A3 , Lightspeed preamp, Technics SP15/Graham/XV1s,Klipschorns w/ALK xovers/Trachorns, Speakercraft MT8(4), Sonos ZP90, Yamaha Aventage for surround
    Office System- Adcom GTP500, Bedini 45/45,Lexicon RT-20,Enlightened Audio DAC, Polk SDA2.3TL, Northcreek Borealis
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  • villian
    villian Posts: 412
    edited May 2014
    F1nut wrote: »
    villian was peeking, yet not a word. Anyone surprised?

    Too busy to write a reply that none of you will accept and only debate further. I have no desire to waste my time trying to prove that 2+2=4. It's something that shouldn't even need to be proven. Go have fun with your Audioquest power cables and junk. Seriously. I'll stick with my coat hanger. Can't be beaten on a price/performance basis.
    Too many good quotes to list..waiting for some fresh ammo. :)
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  • ZLTFUL
    ZLTFUL Posts: 5,652
    edited May 2014
    villian wrote: »
    Too busy to write a reply that none of you will accept and only debate further. I have no desire to waste my time trying to prove that 2+2=4. It's something that shouldn't even need to be proven. Go have fun with your Audioquest power cables and junk. Seriously. I'll stick with my coat hanger. Can't be beaten on a price/performance basis.

    Then why do you keep coming back? Oh...wait...I know...

    troll-trollol.jpg
    "Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."

    "Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
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  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,496
    edited May 2014
    villian wrote: »
    Too busy to write a reply that none of you will accept and only debate further. I have no desire to waste my time trying to prove that 2+2=4. It's something that shouldn't even need to be proven. Go have fun with your Audioquest power cables and junk. Seriously. I'll stick with my coat hanger. Can't be beaten on a price/performance basis.

    Could it also be that 1+1+1+1=4? Maybe it's more complex and takes more training than you realise?
    Relayer-Big-O-Poster.jpg
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\
    My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee
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  • villian
    villian Posts: 412
    edited May 2014
    ZLTFUL wrote: »
    Then why do you keep coming back? Oh...wait...I know...

    troll-trollol.jpg

    For the LULZ from ignorant comments like that. Keep em' coming. Better yet, go debate digital cables (Audioquest USB's, etc) some more while ignoring the root problem of all that madness.
    Too many good quotes to list..waiting for some fresh ammo. :)
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    edited May 2014
    The root problem...yeah, you. Thankfully, I have a solution as life is too short to be wasting time reading your nonsense. Welcome to my BOZO list.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • ZLTFUL
    ZLTFUL Posts: 5,652
    edited May 2014
    Those who can, do. Those who can't, troll. Village Idiot can't put his money where his mouth is so he tries to throw insults to try and deflect from his own inadequacies. Sad...pathetic really.
    "Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."

    "Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
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  • villian
    villian Posts: 412
    edited May 2014
    ZLTFUL wrote: »
    Those who can, do. Those who can't, troll. Village Idiot can't put his money where his mouth is so he tries to throw insults to try and deflect from his own inadequacies. Sad...pathetic really.

    Right, because you really know what all my listening rig consists of (More like you've never asked, and only insinuated that I have some prehistoric gradeschool like setup). It's not like I'm running Monster Z Series as well. I've fooled around with some other wire, but much like DQ have come to the conclusion that the Z's sound quite good and just as good as many other, higher priced cables.
    Too many good quotes to list..waiting for some fresh ammo. :)
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  • ZLTFUL
    ZLTFUL Posts: 5,652
    edited May 2014
    Nice try. You put words in my mouth...but that never works. Just makes you look like a bigger fool when people read back through the thread and see that I never said or insinuated anything of the sort. Just your own delusional projections taking shape again.
    "Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."

    "Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
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  • ken brydson
    ken brydson Posts: 8,772
    edited May 2014
    ZLTFUL wrote: »
    Nice try. You put words in my mouth...but that never works. Just makes you look like a bigger fool when people read back through the thread and see that I never said or insinuated anything of the sort. Just your own delusional projections taking shape again.

    Put on "ignore". Nuff said, don't waste the bandwidth...
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    edited May 2014
    ken brydson wrote: »
    Put on "ignore". Nuff said, don't waste the bandwidth...

    But that takes all the fun out of online forums. :smile:
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • ZLTFUL
    ZLTFUL Posts: 5,652
    edited May 2014
    BlueFox, ZLTFUL has "liked" your post.

    :loneranger:
    "Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."

    "Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,981
    edited May 2014
    BlueFox wrote: »
    But that takes all the fun out of online forums. :smile:

    Yep....the entertainment factor can be off the charts.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • ROHfan
    ROHfan Posts: 1,014
    edited May 2014
    I heart cable threads.

    But seriously, I was in the "cables don't matter" camp a few years ago. Since then I've added $2k fronts, a $700 sub and am most likely adding a tube pre to the mix very soon. I sure as **** ain't using any Home Depot zip wire to deliver the signal like I used to.
    TV: 65" Samsung QLED 4K
    Fronts: Energy RC70 --- Center: Energy RC-LCR
    Front Heights: Polk RC65i --- Rears: Polk RC85i --- Sub: Power Sound Audio XS15
    Pioneer VSX-1120K --- Parasound HCA-1000A --- Oppo BDP-103
    Vincent Audio SA31 preamp --- Teac UD301 DAC
    AIYIMA Tube T7 preamp --- Nobsound 12AX7 tube preamplifier
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  • villian
    villian Posts: 412
    edited May 2014
    ROHfan wrote: »
    I heart cable threads.

    But seriously, I was in the "cables don't matter" camp a few years ago. Since then I've added $2k fronts, a $700 sub and am most likely adding a tube pre to the mix very soon. I sure as **** ain't using any Home Depot zip wire to deliver the signal like I used to.

    You won't know if you won't try. Seriously, don't get all wrapped up in the price tags.
    Too many good quotes to list..waiting for some fresh ammo. :)
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  • ROHfan
    ROHfan Posts: 1,014
    edited May 2014
    villian wrote: »
    You won't know if you won't try. Seriously, don't get all wrapped up in the price tags.

    I DO know because I DID try. Are you done annoying people yet?
    TV: 65" Samsung QLED 4K
    Fronts: Energy RC70 --- Center: Energy RC-LCR
    Front Heights: Polk RC65i --- Rears: Polk RC85i --- Sub: Power Sound Audio XS15
    Pioneer VSX-1120K --- Parasound HCA-1000A --- Oppo BDP-103
    Vincent Audio SA31 preamp --- Teac UD301 DAC
    AIYIMA Tube T7 preamp --- Nobsound 12AX7 tube preamplifier
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  • villian
    villian Posts: 412
    edited May 2014
    Nice way to get all crazy for no reason. Welcome to the Polk Forums. Insane.
    Too many good quotes to list..waiting for some fresh ammo. :)
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  • ROHfan
    ROHfan Posts: 1,014
    edited May 2014
    villian wrote: »
    Nice way to get all crazy for no reason. Welcome to the Polk Forums. Insane.

    I wasn't getting crazy at all. I was just pointing out that I had learned to try things before judging thanks to the people on this forum. And I suggest you do the same. Your comments would then hold much more weight...otherwise its just words, and words tend to get annoying without anything backing them up. In fact, they can appear troll-like.
    TV: 65" Samsung QLED 4K
    Fronts: Energy RC70 --- Center: Energy RC-LCR
    Front Heights: Polk RC65i --- Rears: Polk RC85i --- Sub: Power Sound Audio XS15
    Pioneer VSX-1120K --- Parasound HCA-1000A --- Oppo BDP-103
    Vincent Audio SA31 preamp --- Teac UD301 DAC
    AIYIMA Tube T7 preamp --- Nobsound 12AX7 tube preamplifier
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  • villian
    villian Posts: 412
    edited June 2014
    ROHfan wrote: »
    I wasn't getting crazy at all. I was just pointing out that I had learned to try things before judging thanks to the people on this forum. And I suggest you do the same. Your comments would then hold much more weight...otherwise its just words, and words tend to get annoying without anything backing them up. In fact, they can appear troll-like.

    I have tried things, and have come to the conclusions I have come to. Hence the reason I post what I do. Been there, done that. What makes you think otherwise? Just a wild guess here but maybe the reason I catch so much flak is for trying things expensive, AND cheap. Yes, I don't mind giving up my AQ Carbon for a $9 25ft HDMI cord straight from China off Ebay to see what the differences are. Guess what? I've been so impressed I've been using that insanely "Cheap" cable for about 10 days now on my BenQ W1070. You never know if you don't try! Exactly what I posted the first time around.

    I've only seen one other person put their money where their mouth is, and he got ridiculed or ignored much like myself.


    As for words...this is a fricking internet forum. There's only so much you can do to prove a point or show what you've done yourself to someone who's unwilling to listen! What is this I'm doing? Oh yeah that's right...TYPING. WORDS.
    Too many good quotes to list..waiting for some fresh ammo. :)
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    edited June 2014
    villian wrote: »
    Just a wild guess here but maybe the reason I catch so much flak is for trying things expensive, AND cheap. Yes, I don't mind giving up my AQ Carbon for a $9 25ft HDMI cord straight from China off Ebay to see what the differences are. Guess what? I've been so impressed I've been using that insanely "Cheap" cable for about 10 days now on my BenQ W1070.

    What does that have to do with speaker cables?
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • villian
    villian Posts: 412
    edited June 2014
    BlueFox wrote: »
    What does that have to do with speaker cables?

    Not to get all wrapped up in price tags. Exactly what I said.
    Too many good quotes to list..waiting for some fresh ammo. :)
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  • PolkieMan
    PolkieMan Posts: 2,446
    edited June 2014
    I think better cables would be more noticeable if I could hear better. They make us do a OSHA test at work every two years my results were not to good.
    POLK SDA 2.3 TLS BOUGHT NEW IN 1990, Gimpod/Sonic Caps/Mills RDO-198
    POLK CSI-A6 POLK MONITOR 70'S ONKYO TX NR-808 SONY CDP-333ES
    PIONEER PL-510A SONY BDP S5100
    POLK SDA 1C BOUGHT USED 2011,Gimpod/Sonic Caps/Mills RDO-194
    ONKYO HT RC-360 SONY BDP S590 TECHNICS SL BD-1
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