Five Speaker Jumper Comparisons For The SDA SRS 1.2TL

DarqueKnight

Mr. Bubbles wrote: »

Now back to the original thoughts on the thread; DK have you ever tried moving the lows/mids and highs internakl wiring to the same binding posts.

Yes I have. I discussed this in post number 23 and beginning near the middle of post number 40 of this thread.

Mr. Bubbles wrote: »

Also from an engineering perspective can you give more info on why silver wire may sound different than copper.

Silver sounds different from copper for the same reason that copper sounds different from brass, steel, aluminum or any other electrically conductive metal. They all have different electrical noise characteristics due to their grain and crystal structures and they all have different effects on the electrical energy moving through them. That is why different types of copper have different sound characteristics. Imagine a person swimming through different rivers that have increasing amounts of obstructions of different sizes and shapes.

Mr. Bubbles

Thanks. As soon as I got to grain and crystal structure it made a lot of sense. The analogy in my mind is water flowing around a cylinder is much easier than around a rectangle.

nspindel

villian made it to my bozo list from another thread. glad to see i'm not the only one who finds him more annoying than stepping in dog droppings.

Ray, always a pleasure reading your write ups. This is a problem I don't need to solve since I run 4.1TL's, but I never get tired of your posts.

BlueFox

villian wrote: »

For what it's worth I know of a guy running Infinity IRS V ($100,000 stereophonic speaker set) on some bargain bin no-name type wiring. Sounds absolutely amazing and he says he wouldn't change a thing about it. Working on room treatments instead.

Over the years, it seems every no experience scoffer who tries to claim supreme knowledge about cables always knows somebody with a 6 figure stereo that uses cheapo generic wire. The 6 figure stereo owner never comments on these threads (and this applies to other forums where 6 figure stereos are commen). Rather, it is always a third hand story.

For what it's worth...

Apparently, it isn't worth anything.

BlueFox

Since the placebo effect keeps getting thrown out as an explanation for why a stereo sounds better with a cable upgrade, I decided to try and find some evidence for it. Granted, I just did a quick Google search, but all I found were studies in the traditional definition of the placebo effect. That is with individuals in drug studies showing medical improvement while being in the control group taking the placebo. So far, I haven't seen anything saying some people hear differently when no difference exists.

What appears to be happening is some people do not understand what is occurring with medical studies involving drug placebos, and are taking that phenomena and misapplying it to other situations that are irrelevant from the placebo perspective.

I suppose it is possible that one could imagine a different sound from a stereo when it doesn't exist. After all, some people hear voices in their head, but they appear to be a very small minority part of the population. On the other hand, a more rational explanation for hearing a difference in a stereo after a change it because there is a difference.

OldmanSRS

The post that keeps on giving

F1nut

villian wrote: »

I bet you have some Kimbal Kable wire too?

It's Kimber Kable and you would lose that bet.

Glad to see that this thread has totally turned into a money pissing contest while I've been gone.

It's sad that is what you think this thread turned into, but speaks volumes as to your mind set.

At least Dark Knight had a valid argument in that the most expensive wires aren't automatically the best, nor are they worth gloating about.

Talk about twisting words. :rolleyes:

nspindel

Jessie this one ain't worth your time. Put him on your bozo list where he belongs.

DarqueKnight

BlueFox wrote: »

What appears to be happening is some people do not understand what is occurring with medical studies involving drug placebos, and are taking that phenomena and misapplying it to other situations that are irrelevant from the placebo perspective.

Quoted for truth and emphasis!

F1nut wrote: »

It's sad that is what you think this thread turned into, but speaks volumes as to your mind set.

I can't imagine that a simple mention of comparably priced and higher priced items would amount to a pissing contest. I shouldn't be surprised though. This is the same person that assumed that the purpose of this thread was to promote the highest priced alternative, when anyone who has been reading me for a while knows that I do cartwheels at the prospect of saving money.

F1nut wrote: »

Talk about twisting words. :rolleyes:

Is it that cable threads bring out the worst in people, the worst people, or both?

DarqueKnight

BlueFox wrote: »

Over the years, it seems every no experience scoffer who tries to claim supreme knowledge about cables always knows somebody with a 6 figure stereo that uses cheapo generic wire. The 6 figure stereo owner never comments on these threads (and this applies to other forums where 6 figure stereos are commen). Rather, it is always a third hand story.

Even if the six figure stereo owner provided his name and address, it wouldn't be an indictment of high performance cables. Most people are not interested in optimizing performance. I can understand why someone with a six figure equipment investment would balk at the idea of doing "upgrades". After spending 100 grand or more, would probably think that the thing should be 99.9999999% perfect.

pitdogg2

DarqueKnight wrote: »

After spending 100 grand or more, would probably think that the thing should be 99.9999999% perfect.

You are so right Ray. I do not know how many times I have had conversations with people that relay that very sentence. The other is " I've paid very good money so I didn't have to invest more" Only we have the sickness

DarqueKnight

pitdogg2 wrote: »

The other is " I've paid very good money so I didn't have to invest more"

Yet, they will buy a "goddess" trophy wife and spend a fortune on face, butt, and boob "optimization".:razz:

pitdogg2

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Yet, they will buy a "goddess" trophy wife and spend a fortune on face, butt, and boob "optimization".:razz:

Well YEA!!! Then several years down the road "invest" more to ship her down the road....Talk about return on investment...NOW that is a "rabbit hole"

DarqueKnight

nbrowser wrote: »

Yeah, good way to have a "natural presentation" with "lifelike imaging"

The basis of stereo system optimization is the removal of electrical and mechanical noise that diminishes signal quality. If done right, the modifications work in harmony with the design of the equipment and this does result in a more "natural" and "lifelike" sonic presentation.

Plastic surgery results are often unnatural looking, deteriorate over time, and often work against the body's natural functions.

BlueFox

DSkip wrote: »

...and I'd suggest that those who spend $100k on speakers and spend "nothing" on other components are grandstanding. Those who wish to get the most out of their system buy it for the intended purpose. Those who just flop down that kind of money without a care for optimization buy them as a status symbol.

I have to agree with this. I would hope that anyone who spends that kind of money on an entire stereo, let alone speakers, loves music, and would want it to sound its best. However, I can imagine there are people who just give a blank check to a decorator, and tell them to put a good system in a room.

nspindel

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Yet, they will buy a "goddess" trophy wife and spend a fortune on face, butt, and boob "optimization".:razz:

No placebo effect there!

nspindel

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Well YEA!!! Then several years down the road "invest" more to ship her down the road....Talk about return on investment...NOW that is a "rabbit hole"

Right! Can't just replace the caps.....

cnh

Excuse the digression. But the Placebo effect in Medicine does NOT mean that the "effect" is imaginary or did NOT happen. The problem Medical Science has is to explain just HOW the MIND is affecting the BODY in a VERY VERY tangible and REAL way. It is producing an effect that actually heals the body in many cases.

Otherwise an interesting discussion.

cnh

motorstereo

This is the most entertaining thread I've read on here in quite some time. Nothing to add here other than I do hope it continues.

DarqueKnight

nspindel wrote: »

No placebo effect there!

A placebo is something that seems to be real, but it isn't. I think a store bought face and body could be considered a placebo in a relationship, just like a store bought sugar pill is a placebo in a medical trial.

DarqueKnight

cnh wrote: »

Excuse the digression. But the Placebo effect in Medicine does NOT mean that the "effect" is imaginary or did NOT happen. The problem Medical Science has is to explain just HOW the MIND is affecting the BODY in a VERY VERY tangible and REAL way. It is producing an effect that actually heals the body in many cases.

Otherwise an interesting discussion.

cnh

I don't find it surprising that placebos "work" in some medical trials. Doctors and medicine don't heal the body, they only assist the body in healing itself. Stress is both a cause and an aggravating factor in many diseases. If a placebo calms a person's mind to where the brain can focus on fighting a disease and healing, rather than worrying, then the placebo is just as valid a medicine as one with an active ingredient.

This highlights how the "placebo effect" is misapplied in audio trials. In medical trials, performance is measured by whether or not a placebo had an effect on a specific medical condition. Blind audio trials are about perceiving some nebulous, ill-defined or undefined sonic "difference" between two pieces of audio equipment, rather than measuring a specific performance attribute.

BlueFox

kevintomb wrote: »

Not true.

A Placebo LIKE effect in audio, is meant to describe a similar situation to the medical scenario of, when someone knows something has been altered, changed, improved, or adjusted, they hear a difference. Often even when removing the difference or adjustment, and the person is not aware of the change back, they still perceive a difference.

It is a very well known effect. Same as how mood affects how a system can sound at times, or when one is tired it sounds more strident etc.

Our brain is in control, not the ears.

Often spending a large sum of money on something, will release chemicals in the brain, and create a mood that facilitates one almost "Hearing what they expect or hope to hear", whether true or not.

Kinda like how when you first drive off the lot with a new car. The car seems so fantastic, but a few weeks or months later.....kinda just normal.

Sorry. This is just psuedo-science. While it sounds nice, and makes skeptics feel good, it has no relvance to the real world.

DarqueKnight

kevintomb wrote: »

A Placebo LIKE effect in audio, is meant to describe a similar situation to the medical scenario of, when someone knows something has been altered, changed, improved, or adjusted, they hear a difference.

Often even when removing the difference or adjustment, and the person is not aware of the change back, they still perceive a difference.

When "they" were asked to describe the imaginary difference, how did they describe it?

kevintomb wrote: »

It is a very well known effect. Same as how mood affects how a system can sound at times, or when one is tired it sounds more strident etc.

Our brain is in control, not the ears.

If bias is such an insurmountable attribute of the brain, why is there a field of economic research which concerns successful methods of "debiasing" consumers"? I asked this question back in post #41 and cited credible research references on the topic. The question was ignored then. Do you have a credible answer?

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Another example from the field of economics is "Shrouded Attributes, Consumer Myopia, and Information Suppression in Competitive Markets", Gabaix, X., and D. Laibson, Quarterly Journal of Economics, 121(2), 505-540, (2006) (link):

"Firms often shroud the negative attributes of their products, particularly high prices for complementary add-ons.

A "curse of debiasing" suppresses unshrouding. Debiasing a consumer improves consumer welfare, but no firm can capture or even partially share these benefits. Firms receive lower profits when they interact with debiased consumers. Debiased consumers know how to avoid high-priced items. Moreover, firms cannot drive away such debiased consumers without losing (profitable) myopic consumers as well. Debiased consumers can pretend to be myopes, enabling the debiased consumers to take advantage of the traps that firms set for myopes." (p. 531)

kevintomb wrote: »

Often spending a large sum of money on something, will release chemicals in the brain, and create a mood that facilitates one almost "Hearing what they expect or hope to hear", whether true or not.

What accounts for our wives, girlfriends, (and sometimes sisters) being able to perceive small performance improvements in our audio systems, yet they have no interest whatsoever in audio, and often have a strong bias against it ... particularly with regard to huge speakers in "their" living rooms?

On3s&Z3r0s

cnh wrote: »

Excuse the digression. But the Placebo effect in Medicine does NOT mean that the "effect" is imaginary or did NOT happen. The problem Medical Science has is to explain just HOW the MIND is affecting the BODY in a VERY VERY tangible and REAL way. It is producing an effect that actually heals the body in many cases.

Otherwise an interesting discussion.

cnh

So, you're saying the placebo effect means that if I believe my system sounds better, it actually will in reality sound better. This sounds like a sweet career opportunity to me! I go to somebody's house, they give me $429 and I believe their system sounds way better than before they gave me the $429. I am perfectly suited for this job, because I will believe anything for $429.

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

cnh

On3s&Z3r0s wrote: »

So, you're saying the placebo effect means that if I believe my system sounds better, it actually will in reality sound better. This sounds like a sweet career opportunity to me! I go to somebody's house, they give me $429 and I believe their system sounds way better than before they gave me the $429. I am perfectly suited for this job, because I will believe anything for $429.

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

I'm not saying that at all. That's why I prefaced my comments as a "digression". In the medical situation the Mind and the Body are ONE unit that affect each other.

Raife understood the difference in his response. The Mind can heal the body in certain instances but it cannot "magically" transform the "external" world--the world that is not the body. We're not talking about magic, after all. lol

cnh

On3s&Z3r0s

cnh wrote: »

I'm not saying that at all. That's why I prefaced my comments as a "digression". In the medical situation the Mind and the Body are ONE unit that affect each other.

Raife understood the difference in his response. The Mind can heal the body in certain instances but it cannot "magically" transform the "external" world--the world that is not the body. We're not talking about magic, after all. lol

cnh

For the record, I got that... just couldn't resist the opportunity to pick up a little extra scratch. :biggrin:

For some reason this reminds me a little bit of George Costanza's position on reality... "It's not a lie if you believe it."

F1nut

Kinda like how when you first drive off the lot with a new car. The car seems so fantastic, but a few weeks or months later.....kinda just normal.

My now one year old car is just as fantastic as the day I bought it.

tonyb

kevintomb wrote: »

Not true.

A Placebo LIKE effect in audio, is meant to describe a similar situation to the medical scenario of, when someone knows something has been altered, changed, improved, or adjusted, they hear a difference.
Often even when removing the difference or adjustment, and the person is not aware of the change back, they still perceive a difference.

It is a very well known effect. Same as how mood affects how a system can sound at times, or when one is tired it sounds more strident etc.

Our brain is in control, not the ears.

Often spending a large sum of money on something, will release chemicals in the brain, and create a mood that facilitates one almost "Hearing what they expect or hope to hear", whether true or not.

Kinda like how when you first drive off the lot with a new car. The car seems so fantastic, but a few weeks or months later.....kinda just normal.

This is the same logic spewed out on many audio forums from those not willing for one reason or another to further their audio journey. If you don't care to go any further, cool, stay where you are and rock on....just don't pretend we all should stop our journey because you care not to further your own.

While your comments hold some merit, if your 17 years old, those of us into audio for any length of time are well aware of such and have moved past that eons ago.

I just love cable threads....

On3s&Z3r0s

tonyb wrote: »

I just love cable threads....

Because they are never about cables. They are all about belief, and philosophy, and the nature of science, and economics, and the human condition. This stuff is better than Shakespeare!

gudnoyez

So the difference I notice after adding Mit Speaker Cables and interconnects, Signal Speaker Cables and interconnects, and Audioquest, interconnects and cables means me and my wallet experienced the PLACEBO effect on 3 different occasions, but I did notice a difference after the first purchase, that's why I made 2 other purchases. So perhaps it was not said PLACEBO effect but the difference good cables do make.