Does high quality digital cables matter?

Habanero Monk

DarqueKnight wrote: »

No, this is an example of your special kind of bias where you always want to put audiophiles on trial and evaluate them rather than evaluate gear.

Your mindset is bent on proving whether or not someone can hear what they say they hear, rather than whether one piece of gear outperforms another.

Ok, so lets use the trained listeners to evaluate Product X/Y/Z. We'll let everyone know what Make and Model X/Y/Z after the evaluation.

They don't need to know before. You've just established that the trained listener is the control and the product is the variable.

badchad

DarqueKnight wrote: »

The point you and others seem not to be able to grasp is that blinding adds an unnecessary layer of complexity. When misused, as it often is, it can lead to erroneous results, the nature of which I have discussed in the JOSS paper and in many discussions on this and other audio forums.

So this is primarily what I'm interested in. I'll try and withhold further comment until I read the paper.

DarqueKnight wrote: »

4. Why can't manufacturers do the blind testing and relieve the consumer of that responsibility? In medical trials, the results from a very small population can be extended to a very large population. This is because human beings have relatively few physiological differences. That is why the same medicine can be safely taken by millions and billions of people. You claim to be a pharmacist, so you understand this.

To be clear, this is what I had intended (manufacturer testing).

To expand briefly on the prior points you made, I completely agree that lab-based test may not be always be representative of actual, consumer behavior. For example, most of us don't drive our cars into concrete wall at high speed. I haven't gotten up and sat down on my Ikea chair 4,000 times a day, and I'd think its rare in medicine for someone to take a drug then close their eyes and stand on one foot, but we do these tests to provide us with different information.

In any event, I'll keep an eye out for some nice cables on my local CL.

WilliamM2

DarqueKnight wrote: »

The only difference that matters is the difference made in your own audio system. If someone is tone deaf and insensitive to the point that every cable, CD player, amp, etc. sounds the same to them, their hearing is not going to improve if everyone in the world proves that they can hear a difference, is it?

No, but if someone, anyone, would demonstrate the ability to hear the difference, we might believe that there really is a difference in silly things like fuses.

Most hobbies that people are serious about have a peripheral naysayer fringe element. The ones in photography are much worse. There is no amount of optical science that will convince them that their 99 cent lenses and $24.95 cameras don't take pictures every bit as good as pro quality glass and cameras. The debates between film enthusiasts and digital enthusiasts make audio cable "debates" look like a family picnic.

And many hobbies have a fringe element that imagine differences where none exist. And most are afraid to have their claims put to the test.

polrbehr

WilliamM2 wrote: »

No, but if someone, anyone, would demonstrate the ability to hear the difference, we might believe that there really is a difference in silly things like fuses.
And many hobbies have a fringe element that imagine differences where none exist. And most are afraid to have their claims put to the test.

Why is it silly? And if it were demonstrated to any degree, someone...ANYone would find a way to discredit the findings. Sound familiar yet?
And I have never found DK to be afraid of anything, nor do I believe that he advocates that everyone try, or accept, his findings or opinions on the many items/upgrades he's done. Rather, he just likes to offer his opinions on tests he's performed in his system, if for no other reason than to encourage people to think outside the box.
I can admit I've spent many eye-rubbing hours poring over his informative posts here, not because I feel I HAVE to try anything and everything new and different, but because it's pretty cool to see someone so committed to audio, video, testing, etc. who is willing to share what he's learned without wondering if it's simply marketing hype?
For myself, I do know that I've tried many different things in my own systems over the years, and found the journey to be most rewarding because of what I've discovered for myself; hobbies are supposed to be fun after all...

tonyb

polrbehr wrote: »

For myself, I do know that I've tried many different things in my own systems over the years, and found the journey to be most rewarding because of what I've discovered for myself; hobbies are supposed to be fun after all...

Bingo....give this man a cookie.

ZLTFUL

WilliamM2 wrote: »

No, but if someone, anyone, would demonstrate the ability to hear the difference, we might believe that there really is a difference in silly things like fuses.
And many hobbies have a fringe element that imagine differences where none exist. And most are afraid to have their claims put to the test.

I suppose you are also the sort that thinks that there is no differences to the electrical properties of various metals too? One who believes that either it passes a signal or it doesn't? That it has no effect one way or the other?
You should think long and hard about your answer because if you say yes, you discredit about 85% of all of your derisive and derogatory posts.

I don't understand why it is so hard for people to accept that some can do things better than others.
That they can be trained to be better.
Navy Sonar Techs are a prime example. They are quite literally trained to hear better than you or I.
Fighter pilots.
Football players (both real and fake Football...soccer :cheesygrin:).
Hops, Cacao or Coffee buyers.
Forensic artists.

The list goes on and on with examples of people that are trained to be better at things than others.
A composer or conductor can hear when a cellist misses a note in an entire orchestra through training.
A photographer can be trained to not only watch the action shot they are about to take but also scan for other potential shots.
A programmer can be trained to see a single error in 10,000 lines of code.
An auto mechanic can hear something wrong with an engine where the lay-person hears nothing.
It all comes down to training.

And there are varying degrees of training.
Some people focus 100% on perfecting their craft or profession.
Some people treat the same craft or profession as a hobby and will only work on learning or training more on the weekends or in their free time.
And you are trying to tell me that the professional who spends their LIFE doing whatever this thing may be is no better than the hobbyist who just started learning about the subject?

Naive at best and just plain ignorant at worst.

tonyb

WilliamM2 wrote: »

No, but if someone, anyone, would demonstrate the ability to hear the difference, we might believe that there really is a difference in silly things like fuses.
And many hobbies have a fringe element that imagine differences where none exist. And most are afraid to have their claims put to the test.

Think about how utterly ridiculous this statement is.

You asking someone to prove to another what they hear, even though it has been established we all hear differently. Like snowflakes, no two sets of ears will be identical. To properly demonstrate you need 2 identical sets of ears, which is why the ONLY set of ears that matters is yours.

WilliamM2

tonyb wrote: »

Think about how utterly ridiculous this statement is.

You asking someone to prove to another what they hear, even though it has been established we all hear differently. Like snowflakes, no two sets of ears will be identical. To properly demonstrate you need 2 identical sets of ears, which is why the ONLY set of ears that matters is yours.

Think about how utterly ridiculous this statement is.

We all hear differently, some claim to be able to discern things in the sound of wire/fuses/outlets that others can't. But after decades of debate, none of them have demonstrated these claims.

txcoastal1

Music is like art "The beauty is in the eye of the beholder" in this case "the ear"

Same follows suit with trained wine tasters, to many it's just a glass of wine others can pick out every little nuance of the makers intentions.

WilliamM2

ZLTFUL wrote: »

I suppose you are also the sort that thinks that there is no differences to the electrical properties of various metals too? One who believes that either it passes a signal or it doesn't? That it has no effect one way or the other?
You should think long and hard about your answer because if you say yes, you discredit about 85% of all of your derisive and derogatory posts.

Of course there are different electrical properties. The question is, are they audible?

And you are trying to tell me that the professional who spends their LIFE doing whatever this thing may be is no better than the hobbyist who just started learning about the subject?

I have no doubt some people can do things better than other, they demonstrate it everyday.

txcoastal1

Music is like art "The beauty is in the eye of the beholder" in this case "the ear"

Same follows suit with trained wine tasters, to many it's just a glass of wine others can pick out every little nuance of the makers intentions.

As for your statement William I have seen examples of where people have picked up on subtle differences in music while swapping cables. Those differences were later revealed on spectra graphs...some heard it some didn't

WilliamM2

txcoastal1 wrote: »

Music is like art "The beauty is in the eye of the beholder" in this case "the ear"

Same follows suit with trained wine tasters, to many it's just a glass of wine others can pick out every little nuance of the makers intentions.

And the wine tasters can demonstrate this ability, even blind. Good point.

ZLTFUL

WilliamM2 wrote: »

Of course there are different electrical properties. The question is, are they audible?
I have no doubt some people can do things better than other, they demonstrate it everyday.

And yet you still hold to the mantra that because *you* can't hear a difference between 2 sets of cables, that someone else can't either? It is a very narrow minded attitude to have on one specific topic when you are willing to admit that it doesn't apply evenly across the spectrum...

WilliamM2

ZLTFUL wrote: »

And yet you still hold to the mantra that because *you* can't hear a difference between 2 sets of cables, that someone else can't either? It is a very narrow minded attitude to have on one specific topic when you are willing to admit that it doesn't apply evenly across the spectrum...

That's not even close to what I said. I hold the belief I do because NO ONE had been able to demonstrate THEY can hear it. I don't have to be able to run a 4 minute mile, to believe someone else can.

Your claims are about as credible as dowsing rods. And you will find plenty of people with experience and training who believe in those as well. It's still bunk.

ZLTFUL

So things like RTA plots and Oscilloscope plots that show definitive changes when the same passage of music is played via the same gear with only the cables changing are the equivalent of dowsing rods?

Now I am certain that you are nuttier than a pecan tree. Thank you for proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that your opinion on the matter holds exactly no weight whatsoever.

(Reference any one of DK's plethora of cable threads along with any Stereophile article showing actual testing of cable comparisons to see why you are unequivocally wrong.)
Funny that there are countless simple noise floor comparisons between cables out there that show a noise floor difference in real, actual and measurable levels and yet you hold on to the belief. Sad really.

DarqueKnight

WilliamM2 wrote: »

That's not even close to what I said. I hold the belief I do because NO ONE had been able to demonstrate THEY can hear it. I don't have to be able to run a 4 minute mile, to believe someone else can.

More correctly, no one has been able to demonstrate they can hear it using a test methodology YOU believe in. The scientific literature is full of audiophiles demonstrating their ability to hear differences in audio gear and you have dismissed them all for one reason or another because, like most conspiracy theorists, you hold to your belief with religious fervor.

The following information was provided to you in 2010:

DarqueKnight wrote:

I will share with you one paper that I found fascinating. The title of the paper is "Psychoacoustic Detection Threshold of Transient Intermodulation Distortion, by M. Petri-Larmi, M. Otala and J. Lammasniemi. It was published in the March 1980 issue of the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society. The abstract is as follows:

"The audible threshold of transient intermodulation distortion (TIM) was determined for the six most sensitive subjects of the previously reported test series of 68 listeners. Improved equipment, carefully controlled listening environment, a digital TIM generator, and five recorded stereophonic music samples were used. The results show that in certain types of passages of music, a trained and sensitive listener can reliably detect extremely low values of distortion. Low distortion values were perceived only as changes in sound character, and not as distortion."


Some excerpts:

"The thresholds reported are for experienced, well-rehearsed subjects, and are therefore believed to be conservative. Further improvements in equipment and records may, however, yield lower thresholds in the future."

"The test records were selected on the basis of the experience gained from the previous investigation to represent technically excellent and audibly "clean" recordings."

"The subject was allowed to play the record for 15-30 minutes."

"Comprehensive auditory tests were performed for all the subjects."

"At the end of the learning period the subject was asked to indicate the distortion level he thought he could perceive in a blind A/B test."

Thread: Further-Thoughts-On-ABX-Testing-Of-Stereophonic-Audio-Systems

Discussed again in this thread from 2012: Dumb-things-you've-heard-from"audiophiles"

You have never offered any scientific justification for why people should use blind tests in stereophonic audio. Why should anyone believe anything you say?

You remind me of the conspiracy theorists who insist that NASA's claim of putting men on the moon's surface was a big Cold War propaganda hoax, yet they never provide any scientifically credible explanation and data to support their claims and accusations.

Habanero Monk

ZLTFUL wrote: »

So things like RTA plots and Oscilloscope plots that show definitive changes when the same passage of music is played via the same gear with only the cables changing are the equivalent of dowsing rods?

Now I am certain that you are nuttier than a pecan tree. Thank you for proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that your opinion on the matter holds exactly no weight whatsoever.

(Reference any one of DK's plethora of cable threads along with any Stereophile article showing actual testing of cable comparisons to see why you are unequivocally wrong.)
Funny that there are countless simple noise floor comparisons between cables out there that show a noise floor difference in real, actual and measurable levels and yet you hold on to the belief. Sad really.

Since the graphic didn't display:

Is that the scope measurement taken in dBv where it can't be converted to dBu?

Did the transfer function of this get shown on the output side of an amp?

And how many dBu down is even the worst noise floor?

Also why spend that kind of $$ on cables when you could get a fully balanced power supply +60/0/-60?

If you have jitter suppression that is -113dB down and another that is twice as good at -116dB down. Who cares? Measurable absolutely, meaningful? No. If you could spend just a few percentage points more to go -116dB down Sure? 300% more?

WilliamM2

ZLTFUL wrote: »

Now I am certain that you are nuttier than a pecan tree. Thank you for proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that your opinion on the matter holds exactly no weight whatsoever.

Yeah, I'm the nutty one imagining things that can't be demonstrated.

I'll just wait for you to prove us all wrong in your upcoming demonstration. That is, if you don't back out first...

BlueFox

I think a major reason why some people are reluctant to admit that power cables, interconnects, speaker cables, vibration isolation devices, and other audio related items actually work is because then they will have to admit they are wrong. While we all want to be right, for some people it is an obsession. They will go to the grave trying to justify and rationalize their stubbornness. On the other hand, more mentally stable individuals will consider the possibility their belief just might be flawed, and then take steps to prove to themselves they are correct. Then if they discover that they were wrong in their belief they will admit it, and move on.

Since the hard-core close minded individuals will never change, and cling to their belief until they die, it is a waste of time trying to engage in a rationale discussion with them. The benefit of threads along this line is that the lurkers who are reading this might start thinking, and then try something for themselves.

For example, I used to think that the idea of a power cord making a difference was ridiculous. If 120V came out of the cord then how could one be different from the other? But after reading so many of these threads, I started to think about it, and decided to try it. I was fortunate because by that point I had built a nice entry level system, and even my first Pangea power cord was able to demonstrate to me that a power cord can improve the sound. After I added two Shunyata entry level cords to my amps, the debate was over. Power cords matter. End of story. However, if it had not been for threads like this I would still be in a state of ignorance. While I would be enjoying my stereo, I would not be enjoying it at its max potential. Ignorance is bliss, as the saying goes.

ZLTFUL

My biggest concern in all of this, Monk is that you aren't being even remotely open minded. You have this preconceived notion that seems to be insurmountable and no amount of evidence or proof is going to sway you in any way.

What's to say you show up, I meet or exceed the criteria of your challenge and you dismiss it as simply extraordinary luck?

I will be the first person in the world to admit that there are things I can't do. Even within my own profession, I will be the first to admit when I don't know something or can't explain it. But I am also the first person to step up with an open mind and admit that there are things that go beyond my realm of experiences.

I am also in IT. I have held many titles over the last 20 or so years I have been doing this. And while I too know how networking works, I can't dismiss things simply because they may not mesh with what I know 100%.
By "their" logic (and the thread that Villain and William seem to have the most derision towards lately is DK's jumper thread), the brass jumper plates that shipped with my LSis should work the exact same way as the 12awg silver coated copper Mil Spec wire I made my jumpers out of. There should be no auditory difference in them at all.
And yet, my wife, who has quite literally said, "I don't care" more times than I can conveniently count when I bring up an audio topic, made specific mention of a difference in sound.
One weekend, while she was gone shopping, I threw together the jumpers and installed them. She got home from shopping and later that evening, we decided to watch one of her favorite movies. About 20 minutes in, she asked me why I had it turned up louder than normal. But I didn't.
I noticed the difference too but by "their" accounts, it shouldn't have made a difference.

I know I am getting a bit afield from the topic of the thread but it seems that it all runs hand in hand. Someone claims a difference (some, like DK will actually show scientific proof to back up their claims) and suddenly, they are kooks or snake oil believers or what have you.
Frankly, it is annoying to hear the same sad record played over and over on repeat.

I am a frugal person. I tend to scour for deals and I bargain all the time. But I know that there are times when the additional investment is worth it. Case in point, going from Audioquest FLX 12/2 with cheap brass plated bananas to factory terminated MIT Terminator SCs was a cosmic leap forward. No placebo effect and no need for some double or single blind study to tell me that I was hearing differences.

The same goes for my network cables. The old cables met spec. They did their job. But when upgrading (want to know what's silly...I bought the new network cables primarily because of their appearance since they would be more visible on my rack and I wanted them to match.) from CAT5E to CAT6 cables, the new cables not only made a marginal difference in performance (two way traffic from my NAS to my computer improved noticeably) but music played from the NAS to the BDP was noticeably improved. Airier highs and a more defined midrange were 2 things I noticed right away.

ZLTFUL

WilliamM2 wrote: »

Yeah, I'm the nutty one imagining things that can't be demonstrated.

I'll just wait for you to prove us all wrong in your upcoming demonstration. That is, if you don't back out first...

At least I am willing to put up or shut up...can't say the same thing for you there cupcake. But you keep on not contributing in any way shape or form.
What a waste of bandwidth.

WilliamM2

ZLTFUL wrote: »

At least I am willing to put up or shut up...can't say the same thing for you there cupcake. But you keep on not contributing in any way shape or form.
What a waste of bandwidth.

I already participated in blind testing, many years ago. Your a little late.

And where have I commented on DK's jumper thread?

ZLTFUL

And you have bad grammar. See, I can have absolutely no point whatsoever too. :rolleyes:

Tell you what, you are welcome to join in this little party. I will be happy to see the dumb expression on your face when I prove you wrong as well.

Habanero Monk

ZLTFUL wrote: »

My biggest concern in all of this, Monk is that you aren't being even remotely open minded. You have this preconceived notion that seems to be insurmountable and no amount of evidence or proof is going to sway you in any way.

What's to say you show up, I meet or exceed the criteria of your challenge and you dismiss it as simply extraordinary luck?

I'm taking an adequate amount of care and due diligence to make sure the testing setup is transparent in it's approach. Level playing field for you and I so the data can speak for itself.

What are you going to say if you can't hit 26 out of 30? What happens if you simply hit the coin flip medium?

I'm not being open or closed minded. If I was I wouldn't be coming out. I have a few more items yet to come in. Getting a mainboard with enough PCIe slots is next because the one I had needed one of the three for a video card.

Habanero Monk

ZLTFUL wrote: »

Case in point, going from Audioquest FLX 12/2 with cheap brass plated bananas to factory terminated MIT Terminator SCs was a cosmic leap forward. No placebo effect and no need for some double or single blind study to tell me that I was hearing differences.

The same goes for my network cables. The old cables met spec. They did their job. But when upgrading (want to know what's silly...I bought the new network cables primarily because of their appearance since they would be more visible on my rack and I wanted them to match.) from CAT5E to CAT6 cables, the new cables not only made a marginal difference in performance (two way traffic from my NAS to my computer improved noticeably) but music played from the NAS to the BDP was noticeably improved. Airier highs and a more defined midrange were 2 things I noticed right away.

I would like to hear your MIT/AQ FLX.

On the CAT5E to CAT6. They should both behave optimally for a GB network since both standards are meant for it.

Again the cables need to be certified. I am going to order a ~12ft BJC CAT6. Let me know if you want me to also get a CAT5e cable from them.

Habanero Monk

What length is your premium cable? If the entire setup is going to be on a wall with line level cables from the DAC passing through.

Just trying to visualize the space for the ergonomics of it all.

That is:

Can I have a computer with the three NIC's, switch next to it, server appliance, DAC all situated on one side together and feeding your system through wall?

Or would the DAC be on the other side and the USB cable pass through?

BlueFox

For this test to be valid it has to be performed with ZLTFUL's old and new cables. Adding unknown cables into the mix can result in different results. First do the test with his old cables and establish a baseline, then try new cables and note the deviation.

F1nut

BlueFox wrote: »

I think a major reason why some people are reluctant to admit that power cables, interconnects, speaker cables, vibration isolation devices, and other audio related items actually work is because then they will have to admit they are wrong. While we all want to be right, for some people it is an obsession. They will go to the grave trying to justify and rationalize their stubbornness. On the other hand, more mentally stable individuals will consider the possibility their belief just might be flawed, and then take steps to prove to themselves they are correct. Then if they discover that they were wrong in their belief they will admit it, and move on.

Since the hard-core close minded individuals will never change, and cling to their belief until they die, it is a waste of time trying to engage in a rationale discussion with them. The benefit of threads along this line is that the lurkers who are reading this might start thinking, and then try something for themselves.

For example, I used to think that the idea of a power cord making a difference was ridiculous. If 120V came out of the cord then how could one be different from the other? But after reading so many of these threads, I started to think about it, and decided to try it. I was fortunate because by that point I had built a nice entry level system, and even my first Pangea power cord was able to demonstrate to me that a power cord can improve the sound. After I added two Shunyata entry level cords to my amps, the debate was over. Power cords matter. End of story. However, if it had not been for threads like this I would still be in a state of ignorance. While I would be enjoying my stereo, I would not be enjoying it at its max potential. Ignorance is bliss, as the saying goes.

Yep, yep and yep.

ZLTFUL

Habanero Monk wrote: »

What are you going to say if you can't hit 26 out of 30? What happens if you simply hit the coin flip medium?

If that were to occur, I am more than willing to admit being wrong. But until that happens, I still maintain that I can't know or explain everything.

So, to that end, let's say you "win", does this one contrived experiment make any difference in the grand scheme of things?
It still doesn't answer any questions to "blind" testing being viable or not.
It doesn't convince anyone but you or I of the other's opinion...and even then, I doubt that you would be able to sway anyone with results either way.
William will still maintain his flat earth mentality.
DK will still stand by blinds being overly complicated and not at all conducive with objective auditory evaluation.

To your second post above, how they *should* behave and how they *do* behave are subjectively different.
Once we have a date/time set, I will send out my 5e and one of my 6s to Kurt. I will also ask that he snap a photo of the sealed package before shipping them back and will not open the package until the set date/time and in your presence so that there is no suspicions of tampering with the cables before the test.

ZLTFUL

Habanero Monk wrote: »

What length is your premium cable? If the entire setup is going to be on a wall with line level cables from the DAC passing through.

Just trying to visualize the space for the ergonomics of it all.

That is:

Can I have a computer with the three NIC's, switch next to it, server appliance, DAC all situated on one side together and feeding your system through wall?

Or would the DAC be on the other side and the USB cable pass through?

DAC is on the rack side of the wall. Network gear is on the other. USB cable would be the only thing to need to pass through.
Computer, network gear, NAS all on the same side.