Morals

F1nut

An event here yesterday/last night got me thinking about morals. Granted there are varying degrees, but there is also a basic set that it seems most people process. So, what is it with folks that lack the basics? Is it their upbringing, perhaps education, lack of Good Orderly Direction in their lives or perhaps something simply wrong with the gray matter? Do you think anything can be done to help those lacking?

mrbiron

Lobotomy....

drumminman

I think people come into this world with a part of their personality hardwired, maybe partly genetic and partly who knows where it came from. The latter may be influenced by prenatal care or lack of, eg nutrition, smoking/drinking/drug using habits, etc.

The personality is also affected by the environment: home life, quality/style of parenting.

The relative effect each plays as a person develops into an adult varies from person to person and seems unpredictable. Look at Adam Lanza, the kid who perpetrated the Sandy Hook massacre. His dad recently gave his first interview and said he knew Adam would kill him if they continued to spend time together. Seems like that kid had some kind of neurological disturbance that came from who knows where. Was he dropped on his head when he was born? Did something happen during the gestational period? Faulty genes? Crappy parenting?

tonyb

Morals Jess ? Your starting to remind me of...me. Up all hours of the night pondering wtf is wrong with people.

If those you speak of are older and lacking morals, chances are they'll never acquire any their whole life. I think morals in general has been turned into a religious issue, and with a lot of people shunning religion these days, morals is simply a by-product also thrown to the curb in a "about me" generation.

You certainly don't need religion to have a good set of morals, our parents, peers, even society in general can set that tone. Add up bad parenting, lousy friends, and a society lacking in such.....where exactly are they suppose to get any morals ?

Given that last statement, and providing one has no guidance in their life, it is still possible to have a good sense of morals. That comes from within though. I think we all know, inherently so, the differences between right and wrong, compassion, and simply when we are being an a-hole. Unfortunately the "me first" mentality has swept the nation and everything I previously said has been tossed out the window.

How do they get some if they have none ? Change the people they hang with....expose them to others that have some. I have found in my lifetime that people are like chameleons, they adapt to their surroundings. If they hang with people that have no morals, eventually they won't either. The opposite is also true. It takes a strong person to remain solid in their convictions when being surrounded by the opposite of what they believe in. Not many can, they adapt to be accepted.

jaygax

it starts at home. family upbringing. education is a great factor too. but not all educated people have good morals.

Msabot1

Upbringing...most definately.....it always begins with upbringing....

badchad

One glaring problem might be that "morals" are largely, an arbitrary, man-made construct.

Why is it that some individuals think its "moral" to have 5 wives, while others think you should have 1? Hundreds of years ago, our "morals" were vastly different than they are now. I'd suggest many of our behaviors our innate, but others have clearly been shaped by society.

Now, what we do about it is the bigger question. I think we're all a bit lost on that front, but I would broadly suggest that if society helps us define our "morals", it can help us achieve them i.e., community support.

decal

Lack of childhood **** whippin' has a lot to do with the moral decay of America. Just my opinion,nothing more.

EndersShadow

Jesse:

Some folks are just plain bad/evil/manipulative, etc. Upbringing, society, friends, take your pick. You cant explain everything as if you could lots less stupid stuff would happen in this world.

This world has too many "gray" areas that are actually white and black but people don't want to be accountable for their actions so they seek a scapegoat.

tonyb

Society in general certainly plays a role in this. Remember though, years ago....many years ago, the definition of "society" was simply the town you grew up in. Now, cultures and societies have bridged with technology and that definition could be construed as the whole planet.

Still, every culture seeks to keep as best they can the morals associated with it. Morals that are engrained into the culture over generations. This is why some get rattled when they see our own culture being diluted to the point of no culture at all, no morals, no expectations. America has always been a melting pot of cultures, different ethnic standards and morals, but some basic morals I think Jess is talking about transcends all cultures. The basics so to speak, right and wrong, caring about others, social behavior.

To me anyway, the area most likely to shape these morals is that gray area between child and adult. This area in a persons life is the most influenced by outside sources. It's also the time education plays a deeper role in forming young minds as they become adults. Everything is relative to the final outcome, you can't simply say it's this one fault or another for the lack of morals in a society or single person.

pitdogg2

yep can't wait it is about time(in a few weeks) to go get me some...and if they are cooked right just scrumptious....

rpf65

I think there are 3 main reasons for lack of morals.

First being that people are convinced they are special, simply because they exist. Sorry, you want to be special prove you are. Do something ground breaking. Invent something really great.

The second being life is fair. It isn't. You may work as hard as anybody else, but if you don't have a special skill or knowledge, your just there to preform a task.

The third being that people not being held responsible for their actions. Sure accidents happen, but constantly having accidents is what 3 year olds use as an excuse for breaking things.

mhardy6647

Part nurture, part Nature.

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) - Romans 2:14-15, NIV [emphasis added]

hochpt21

hochpt21

Oh, morals, not morels....my bad.

mhardy6647

:-) nor morays nor mores.

helipilotdoug

So many good responses! Upbringing, parents that just don't have time for their kids or just don't care, the lack of a good **** whoop'n when kids do wrong, the feeling "I'm SPECIAL" so I should be able to get away with anything (perfect example = Justin Bieber), to name a few. Even though society has worked on changing it, some still have that animal instinct that we inherited from back in the beginnings of our human origins. I'm not a psychologist, so am just guessing at all this! I do find that most people try to be moral in their dealings with others, but there are those that will try to screw over anyone they can. Politicians come to mind! Say whatever it takes to get elected, sling the mud of half truths, and downright lies. But once elected, spend, spend, spend the taxpayers money and do whatever it takes to rake in all the money they can for themselves. I'd name a few, but I like being a Club Polk member in good standing

sucks2beme

Combo thing. You can have a family of 4 kids, and 3 of the 4 will be fine, one isn't.
So it's more than upbringing

marvda1

it went to hell when dr. spock (not the star trek one) started to tell us how to raise our kids and we listened, now go to your room for a timeout.

Tornado Red

In regards to kids today, I agree that its’ a combination of things. And they’re given too much power/control, or whatever you want to call it, at a young age. I believe peer pressure today is tremendous among kids. That’s always been there, but I don’t think to this extent. It’s a group thing, and so many groups of kids today thumb their noses at morality…and so if you want to fit in…Certainly the ‘family unit’ is not what it was 40 years ago, socially I don’t think that’s a good thing, IMO.

I’ll share something that caught me by surprise a few years back. I was married at the time to this wonderful woman from Oklahoma. We moved back to Canada and she taught here (science/math/computers) for several years. It’s a fairly large city, 800,000 or so, and she taught in a very affluent part of town. We were discussing the plight of some of the poorer areas of town, in regards to children with parent(s) gone, etc. She said, ”don’t think it’s just the poor kids lacking parents. I teach kids whose mother is a doctor, dad’s a lawyer working 16 hour days and they’re not home to raise their kids either.” She pointed to kids from well off families, left alone with phones, laptops and virtually a window to the world at 12 years of age. End of the innocence, eh?

I think we’re products of a changed world, a smaller one where we’ve become close knit because of the internet, and a part of the ‘world labour pool’, competing with 3rd world countries for work. The little hamlets and ways of life that were carved out of North America over the last couple of centuries, largely based on moralities taught via Christian beliefs, are slowly disappearing….I think I’m rambling now, lol. Just don’t take any of this too serious, just an opinion 

apphd

We learn more from watching our parents, than anything they try to teach us by telling us. Where/when it all started going south is anybody's guess.

NJPOLKER

I have met a few children/teenagers over the years who have loser parents and some how some way they seemed to have things together, good grades, respectful, caring and just real good kids!! The children I am referring to were competing in sports with or against my own children when I came to know them and their parent/s. How do I know they are loser parents? Small town life and everyone know everything.
I gotta say in my opinion upbringing is the most critical part of living a nice life but sooooo much else can come into play as stated previously in this thread.

cnh

There is no doubt that this is a complex issue involving a discussion of the "nature of human nature" as well as that nature and the particular sociocultural environment it finds itself in.

The world's great religions, almost without exception, contain some formulation of the Golden Rule so though morals may be culture specific, every culture has conceptions of what constitutes a transgression of what is deemed as acceptable behavior. Contrary to "relativist" notions not all cultures in history are equal because some existed under pressures that led to the deformation of the human condition so not "every" behavior" and value is the same.

A good example is the contrast that Turnbull gave between the Mbuti and the Ik. The Mbuti in their natural environment were egalitarian and concerned with the survival of the group. The Ik who had been forcibly displaced from the normal mode of subsistence and moved to a marginal area where starvation was the norm, turned against each other and did not cooperate or help one and other as they had done traditionally. Life became a daily life and death affair where everything depended on the survival of the self and no one else.

In this case the environment determined the disintegration of normal human compassion and concern to an extreme form of self concern and atomistic behavior.

In the West there has been a basic disagreement and debate about the nature of human nature that divides us into those who see life as a "war of all against all that requires the imposition of an absolute authority above the brutish individual" [Hobbes] and those, like Rousseau, who believe that man is born "good" but is corrupted by the superficial, vain and individualistic concerns of individuals in modern state societies. This division also describes some of our current political discourse and why some "distrust" others, gov't, etc. It really depends on which side you're on, you see!

Now, even the two antagonists above agree that socialization (education) is a factor. That the bad can be made good and the good bad.

Then there are also a FEW, very FEW who probably have some kind of neurological disorder that leads them to psychopathic and sociopathic behavior. Strangely, we do not find many such types in smaller scale societies and such behavior would not be tolerated at that level should it occur because the group cannot survive with such members in it.

The evolutionary pressures on small gathering and hunting groups seems to be more on "cooperative" behavior than competitive behavior. But there are some exceptions. So it would seem that humans are concerned with those who are "closest" to them by design and that it is a little more difficult for them to be concerned with those who are most "distant" from them in the large structures that we currently live in. And even be distrusting of those structures where they cannot have face-to-face interactions.

Perhaps all we can say is that there is a natural sequence that involves a number of phases. Certainly the early years of childhood cannot be so "disruptive" and "abusive" that no love has been experienced. It is necessary for children to have some relationships where they are valued and they value the elders who they live with and learn to share and cooperate and conform to some accepted norms. But that is NOT enough, at some point the individual must also experience some loss, frustration, pain, suffering or the like, that forces him/her to reflect upon himself as another and learn that "others" are also so afflicted and identify his/her suffering and the need to end it with others and the same desire.

That's partly what the Golden Rule is about, to see oneself as another and to accept a similar standard for both oneself and the other. Or "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you!".

We find this same idea in Confucianism in a negative form and I paraphrase. "Do NOT do unto others what you would NOT have them do to you!"

And you can find this same idea throughout history. There is an essential belief that we depend on and need others and they us and we should behave so that this defines who we are and interact with others through such values.

Of course, it goes without saying that such norms are transgressed daily by a "few" both in every day life by some of us and on the international economic community through greed, graft and corruption. What we learn from this is that degenerates are NOT limited to the lower classes but are also found in abundance at the highest level where people have had EVERY advantage. And this makes the nature vs. nurture argument a bit more complicated. And is one reason that though Freud has been endlessly criticized and left behind, that some of his insights regarding "early" childhood might just be needed to explain some of this High Level behavior.

As for me. I prefer to look at each man/woman I meet as potentially "good" until I am proven wrong. It seems the fair thing to do. But do not do it, naively.

It is a well know fact that positive reinforcement trumps negative reinforcement. Show concern, reward desired behavior and treat others as you would yourself and, in most cases, you WILL see a real human being blossom and contribute to their society. Do the opposite and...well we see a lot of that almost every day.

Even with all the words above. This is NOTHING but a preamble to a much longer discourse on humans, society and the state that never ends. Because each time a human is born, all of humanity returns in him, her.

My apologies for the length of this e-mail--an occupational hazard, I'm afraid! And ONE reason why my 16 year old NO longer asks me any important questions. lol

cnh

ZLTFUL

Well, when I was in the Army...er I mean the Air Force...or was it the Navy...stationed at Diego Garcia...er I mean maybe it was Ft. Mead...it could have been Offutt AFB...

Signed,
Ryan...I mean Ray...er maybe it was Arr. Maybe even just "R"...


(Jess will get it...and will find the humor)

tonyb

I think we are all pretty much in agreement here. Lack of education, peers/friends, upbringing or lack there of, etc. Personally, I try to be around those of a higher moral standing and don't associate much with the idiots. I said "try".....some can be family members where you have no choice. I just keep those at arms length as best I can. Life's too short to waste my time on boneheads.

F1nut

ZLTFUL wrote: »

Well, when I was in the Army...er I mean the Air Force...or was it the Navy...stationed at Diego Garcia...er I mean maybe it was Ft. Mead...it could have been Offutt AFB...

Signed,
Ryan...I mean Ray...er maybe it was Arr. Maybe even just "R"...


(Jess will get it...and will find the humor)

Witty and clever.......LOL

Face

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-25156510

My signature may also have some relevance.

Jayce1971

Some people are capable of empathy. Others, simply are not. Whether or not you choose to judge them, keep in mind that life would really suck if you had to walk in their shoes. So many illnesses today, OCB, Manic, Bipolar, etc. I can't imagine dealing with ANY of these let alone any one. My step son is Bipolar, and to be honest, it's a real **** to deal with. It's very hard to teach someone empathy if they cannot understand the concept. Refusal to take meds, VERY serious meds, lithium, etc... has left his mom and I to have to try to deal with whatever happens. Not an evil guy. He just cannot put himself into other's shoe's. You hope for the best, and there isn't much else you can do. It's the world we live in.

cnh

Jayce1971 wrote: »

Some people are capable of empathy. Others, simply are not. Whether or not you choose to judge them, keep in mind that life would really suck if you had to walk in their shoes. So many illnesses today, OCB, Manic, Bipolar, etc. I can't imagine dealing with ANY of these let alone any one. My step son is Bipolar, and to be honest, it's a real **** to deal with. It's very hard to teach someone empathy if they cannot understand the concept. Refusal to take meds, VERY serious meds, lithium, etc... has left his mom and I to have to try to deal with whatever happens. Not an evil guy. He just cannot put himself into other's shoe's. You hope for the best, and there isn't much else you can do. It's the world we live in.

In my opinion if you've "never" been depressed I really wonder how "human" you really are! Your point is well taken. But there is also the problem of biology vs. experience here. Current research is very much centered on neurological problems and supports an ever growing pharmaceutical industry like a positive feedback loop. So much so that the mere suggestion that we cannot cure all neuroses/psychoses through medication, etc. is seen as absurd. Yet one does have to ask what is it that has led to such a spike in such diseases in, mostly modern industrialized societies? And are such so-called neuro-chemical imbalances normally distributed in all human societies? And if not, why not? And so on. This is in no way to diminish the sufferings of those so afflicted.

Like Mike's example above about traumatic experiences being passed down in LAB MICE through DNA damage. But what a great leap it is from DNA--Trauma [Human being Black box] to human behavior. Most of the scientists doing this kind of research have very little background on "actual human beings and cultures" and are too quick to LEAP from animal data to human conclusions [in most social science disciplines there would be a phenomenal period of discussion and debate about this before "anyone" was allowed to report what has been reported here as though it has an aura of scientific credibility]. I have some colleagues in neuroscience who do such research and they are always at their wits end when we begin to debate their scientific extrapolations and inferences concerning human behavior. To put it simply, they don't LIKE our questions because they can't answer them outside their discipline specific set of "assumptions" and evince a fantastic ignorance regarding real humans and their cultural behaviors in time and space. And we end up exposing serious flaws in the operational parameters of their experiments. They know mice well enough, but, unfortunately, that's not good enough!

cnh

tonyb

Very good observation there pal, I'm totally down with your conclusions on that. I've know a few so called scientist in my day, none like questions outside their scope of research or expertise. Throws them threw a loop actually, and when you draw the parallels to their studies....there head explodes. Kinda fun to watch really...lol

boston1450

Jayce1971 wrote: »

Some people are capable of empathy. Others, simply are not. Whether or not you choose to judge them, keep in mind that life would really suck if you had to walk in their shoes. So many illnesses today, OCB, Manic, Bipolar, etc. I can't imagine dealing with ANY of these let alone any one. My step son is Bipolar, and to be honest, it's a real **** to deal with. It's very hard to teach someone empathy if they cannot understand the concept. Refusal to take meds, VERY serious meds, lithium, etc... has left his mom and I to have to try to deal with whatever happens. Not an evil guy. He just cannot put himself into other's shoe's. You hope for the best, and there isn't much else you can do. It's the world we live in.

Living with these illnesses isnt easy either