Decent Affordable Speaker Cable for Long Runs

skrol

There is probably a post somewhere around there to cover this but darn if I could find it.

I have about 25 feet from my amp to my speakers (LSi15) and would like to upgrade my speaker cables. Presently I have some rather generic looking 16 awg wire which is stamped "by Esoteric". Given the length and the impedance of the speakers, I was figuring on going with Bluejeans 10 awg but then I was reading about the benefits of bi-wiring and the downsides of larger diameter wire and blaa, blaa, blaa on the AudioQuest site and else where. There seems to be a lot of contradiction.

The info on the AQ site seems to make sense, at least as they explain, but does all the skin-effect, capacitance and inductance mitigation get overshadowed by the length of the cable and the impact on the damping factor?

Bottom line is I am trying to decide between:

1) Straight BJC Belden 10 awg (could probably do with 12 awg but if 10 would be better than why not)
2) a star-quad bi-wired (ie AQ Type 2 or Canare 4S11)
3) I happen to have a 100' spool of Monster XP-CI100 which is 16 awg that I could bi-wire?
4) any other suggestions

BTW, I am on a tight budget and could only go to about $100.

Thanks
Stan

PSOVLSK

I've used the BJC Ten White and think it's a great cable for the money. If you plan to us nanners, make sure you get some with a nice sized opening because this stuff is pretty thick and hard to work with.

Moose68Bash

Before I switched to the Morrow SP7 cables that I now use, I used a double run of 6-meter Canare 4S11, biwired.

My wife thought the highs were too bright, strident, sharp, and she preferred the Morrow SP7s.

An audiophile friend and I thought the Canare cables produced a more accurate and precise rendition of the music, including the highs.

Inspector 24

3) I happen to have a 100' spool of Monster XP-CI100 which is 16 awg that I could bi-wire?

I think this with some good termination will be your biggest bang for the buck. You're not running a whole bunch of power, you don't have incredibly high end gear so the differences in spending more money may not be very large…

I noticed slight differences in my setup with good termination and running bi-wired from the Parasound HCA-3500, but never did before I had that kind of power…

skrol

The Monster XP-CI100 would certainly be my biggest bang for the buck since I already have it and it cost me almost nothing. However, I am wondering about it only being 16 awg. If the distance from my amp to the speakers is 30' (more comfortable with 30 than 25), the round trip distance is 60'. According to most sources, for a 4 ohm speaker, the recommendation is and awg between 12 and 10. I believe that this is mainly considering the DC resistance and mainly focusing on damping factor.

Ref. http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-cable-gauge


Here is a little math exercise.

My Parasound HCA-800II spec shows a damping factor of "Over 100 at 20Hz" (hopefully this is much higher but for math sake...)
Damping Factor = ZLoad / Zsource
We will also stick to DC impedance (resistance)
To be conservative I'll assume that they used a load of 8 ohms, therefore, Zsource = 8/100 = 0.08


System level damping factor (amp + speaker cable)
Now we add the speaker cable resistance.
Belden 16 awg spec shows an ESR of 4.2 ohms / 1000'. I have 60' round trip, therefore 0.126 ohms for the speaker cable.
Add this to the source impedance = 0.08 + 0.126 = 0.332 ohms
Therefore the damping factor for the system for an 8 ohm load = 8 / 0.332 = 24.1, for 4 ohm = 4 / 0.332 = 12

If we do the same for Belden 10 awg...
ESR = 1.03 ohms / 1000' .... speaker cable resistance = 0.0618 ohms
Source impedance = 0.08 + 0.0618 = 0.142 ohms
Damping Factor = 8 / 0.142 = 56 for 8 ohm load and 4/.142 = 28 for 4 ohm.

Did I do all that right?

Therefore, in the case of and amplifier DF of 100, the system level DF is about half the value for the 16 awg vs the 10 awg.

This can greatly impact SQ. To test this, I compared my existing setup with the 16 awg Esoteric (about 30') and compared the same system with 14 awg 6' runs. I kept the speakers in the same position and moved the amp closer. The change in the bass is dramatic. So dramatic that I decided to keep the LSi15's. With the long runs of 16 awg the bass is muddy, placement helps but not enough. The mids and highs are also much better defined with better sound stage. This test is actually what got me started on the speaker cable quest.

Dealing strictly with the DC resistance makes it all make sense and may be the overriding factor. The more exotic cables focus on the reactive impedance (AC). This is where I am at a cross roads as I am not sure how to factor in the AC component. Belden is nice in that they give the inductive and capacitive specs. The exotics don't give such numbers. They would likely be useless anyway as I don't really know the reactive impedance of the LSi15. I think I read that at certain frequencies they can get down to 2 ohms. I also don't know how the amplifier DF changes over the frequency range.

Bi-wire also seems to make good sense especially over a long run of cable. The speaker cable essentially becomes part of the cross-over network. In Bi-wire, the interaction of reactive impedances for the high and low frequencies are reduced.

Life was much simpler when a wire was just a wire.
Stan

pitdogg2

double the 16 you have it use it. I believe you may end up spending more than 100 frogskins for new. I have used both Belden and Canare and I like both but give the nod to Canare.

best price out there
http://store.haveinc.com/p-49380-canare-4s11-starquad-speaker-cable-14-awg-cut.aspx

tonyb

Life was simpler too when we were crapping in the woods....wouldn't want to go back to that though.

The Canare is the best budget wire out there imho.

EndersShadow

Check out the cost for some Douglas Connection 14/4 or 12/4 bare Furez wire. You run it with 2 strands connected on the amp end, and each strand as its own cable on the speaker end.

Terminate it yourself and I think your under your 100 clams for the whole shebang (85 bucks for 50 feet of 12/4 wire w/o discount) (CP members get 10% off if you contact Doug).

Hofy

Grab the Canare 4S11 and terminate it yourself and enjoy.

Hofy

This is a thread over at AudioKarma that is a great instuction on how to terminate Canare4S11 and dress it up all pretty like.

F1nut

tonyb wrote: »

Life was simpler too when we were crapping in the woods....wouldn't want to go back to that though.

I still crap in the woods.

skrol

Thanks for the link. I did some measuring last night and my longest run is more like 35' to give adequate slack for dressing the cable down nicely. Of course I'll do equal lengths for both channels.

The Canare 4S11 seems to get mixed reviews. Some love it while some complain about the highs. Any insight as to why?

Thanks
Stan

Inspector 24

Certainly it's not because all the reviews used the same equipment in the same room with the same ears. :razz:

tonyb

skrol wrote: »

Thanks for the link. I did some measuring last night and my longest run is more like 35' to give adequate slack for dressing the cable down nicely. Of course I'll do equal lengths for both channels.

The Canare 4S11 seems to get mixed reviews. Some love it while some complain about the highs. Any insight as to why?

Thanks
Stan

It's a budget wire....it's not going to sound like a MIT cable for rock bottom prices.

As for the highs ......maybe the cable was new out of the box and didn't have a chance to break in, maybe it was associated gear or source material.....don't know for sure. In that price range though, the Canare is about as good as it gets.

seabeerob213

Im pushing RTis with a yamaha AVR and canare wire, and i dont hear anything overly bright. i have been told that these shouldnt be paired together for the brightness reason, but you have to take what you can get and be happy with it, which i certainly am

CoolJazz

Another option not yet mentioned here is the possibility of giving yourself a free upgrade by moving the amp WAY closer to the speakers.

DC resistance has nothing to do with nothing with regards to delivering sound to the speakers. No DC is involved. Use great care in believing anything from any holic site. The path to better quality and enjoyable audio does not involve the low fi ideas.

CJ

skrol

I certainly would like to move the amp closer to the speakers. I would also like to move the speakers in away from the walls. However, it becomes a compromise between what sounds good am what my wife will tolerate. I am happy she lets me keep floor standers.

I think I'll punt and try either the Belden or the Canare 4S11.

On to 'naners... Are the BJC banana plugs good?

mantis

Audioquest SLP 14-4 or FLX 14-4 done.

leftwinger57

I went from generic 12 gu zip which is thicker than a lot of the newer people use here. I can't afford boutique branded cable at my spred even at 10' for the longest and 7' for the near run would be a small fortune. Last week I got 20' of 10 gauge Belden White from BJC @ about a $1 a foot w/ no terminations. Again for me even going straight into the amp and bypassing my spkr selector the sound was perceptionaly better. Another reason for a nod to BJC was once ordered it came like they parachuted it overnight. Much faster than P/E, MonoPrice or other companies I've dealt w/ getting things delivered. I also went w/ their 1mt i/c last month w/ the same swift delivery times. ( no affiliation ,just happy customer).

skrol

Thanks for the scoop on BJC.