Polk LSI15 Should I again?

geppy1

I have tried the Polk LSI 15 twice before and loved the looks and most of the sound except the bass. UIt seemed disconnected from the rest of the spectrum and may be a bit boomy. I have heard this from a number of other folks also. It is not the room. Before I even think of trying this again is there any way to correct this with the speaker?? thanks

jakeshields

Bass problem? Easy, run a 90Hz crossover a with a good sub

B Run

Have you tried the mod to replace the stock woofers?

geppy1

No to post 3. I have never heard of that mod. I am not a sub guy I do not and never did (even when i worked in the audio biz0 like the idea of big floorstanders with a sub. In most cases subs sound like well, subs. If I was to do that I would get samller speakers with a sub.

skrol

Mine also sound boomy even with the DB840. Pulling them out 2 feet from the back wall and side walls helps a lot. Unfortunately, they look too awkward setting out so far in my room. I moved them back to about 16" from the back wall and experimented with some sound absorption (sofa cushions) and it got positive results. Obviously, I can't leave the sofa cushions there so I am planning to make some bass traps.

The other thought that I was thinking of trying is to swap left and right so that the woofers are facing toward the center, however, this may really mess up the imaging. Anyone tried this?
Stan

tonyb

geppy1 wrote: »

I have tried the Polk LSI 15 twice before and loved the looks and most of the sound except the bass. UIt seemed disconnected from the rest of the spectrum and may be a bit boomy. I have heard this from a number of other folks also. It is not the room. Before I even think of trying this again is there any way to correct this with the speaker?? thanks

You've tried them twice before and they didn't float your boat, what do you think will change the third time ? Dude, time to move on to another speaker.

aboroth00

Maybe there's a problem with the room? Ever take measurements with the speaker in the room?

mantis

geppy1 wrote: »

No to post 3. I have never heard of that mod. I am not a sub guy I do not and never did (even when i worked in the audio biz0 like the idea of big floorstanders with a sub. In most cases subs sound like well, subs. If I was to do that I would get samller speakers with a sub.

I don't even know what that means. Whats "I am not a sub guy"? What I find funny about these types of statements are that if you had a understanding of audio, you would want a sub in every system.
I do understand there are plenty of terrible subs out there, even higher end subs can suck **** I get that but honestly not many speakers can reproduce low end very well or better put correctly.
Most speakers can benefit from a sub bass system. It's just a matter of completing the audio range no matter how you get it done.
Proper integration and calibration is the difference between sloppy crappy bass and true audio performance.

As far as these LSi 15's go, I hear you on the bass. I owned them and felt it was the worse part of the speaker. But some guys in here figured out a replacement woofer and crossover mod's that supposed to really turn around this speaker. I never had the chane to hear a modified pair. If it does exactly what they say it does, I'd own another pair of them as I liked the top and mid range.
I own a full 7 channel system LSI and I ran mine in small.

tonyb

mantis wrote: »

I don't even know what that means. Whats "I am not a sub guy"? What I find funny about these types of statements are that if you had a understanding of audio, you would want a sub in every system.
I do understand there are plenty of terrible subs out there, even higher end subs can suck **** I get that but honestly not many speakers can reproduce low end very well or better put correctly.
Most speakers can benefit from a sub bass system. It's just a matter of completing the audio range no matter how you get it done.
Proper integration and calibration is the difference between sloppy crappy bass and true audio performance.

As far as these LSi 15's go, I hear you on the bass. I owned them and felt it was the worse part of the speaker. But some guys in here figured out a replacement woofer and crossover mod's that supposed to really turn around this speaker. I never had the chane to hear a modified pair. If it does exactly what they say it does, I'd own another pair of them as I liked the top and mid range.
I own a full 7 channel system LSI and I ran mine in small.

Have to agree and disagree here Dan. While proper calibration is essential for a good low end, you first have to have a vehicle cable of such. Many floorstanders today can do low bass all on their own with out assistance. Sometimes the discussion of low bass comes down to many trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip. What they want to hear and what they are willing to pay for is miles apart in some cases.

Also, if you bought floorstanders such as the LSI15 or comparable/larger speakers and are setting them to small, I would suggest you bought the wrong speaker then for your application. I don't think I have ever heard a big speaker set to small that sounded good since that option became available.

hochpt21

IMO, the sub mod didn't increase the bass much, if at all (like I hoped it would). However, the MOST noticeable change to me was the blend with the rest of the speaker. If you really like the speaker and are willing to try it again, I would recommend the sub mod as a cheap, easy option.

EDIT...I also dynamatted the port tube so that may have had an effect as well.

tonyb

Lots of speakers out there to satisfy every mans tastes guys. Trying them a third time is a waste IMHO. Get out there and go listen to some others more in line to your preferences.

hochpt21

tonyb wrote: »

Lots of speakers out there to satisfy every mans tastes guys. Trying them a third time is a waste IMHO. Get out there and go listen to some others more in line to your preferences.

I agree with you, Tony. However, if he likes the sound enough to even consider trying them again, than that may be the speaker for him. And if he hasn't heard them with the sub mod, he hasn't really heard that 'version' of that speaker.

Erik Tracy

tonyb wrote: »

Lots of speakers out there to satisfy every mans tastes guys. Trying them a third time is a waste IMHO. Get out there and go listen to some others more in line to your preferences.

Was going to say the same thing with an analogy of eating food you don't like - eating it again just reminds you of why you don't like it! :cheesygrin:

pearsall001

I also had the LSi15's & experienced pretty much what everyone has said before that they lacked in quality bass reproduction. On the upside the mid's & top end were excellent. With that being said I did a lot of experimenting to really see what they could do. On their own running full range they simply fell short of my expectations. They did however sound very, very good & I'm sure a lot of folk's would have been more than happy with them as is. However since I do have at my disposable a twin pair of superb Velo subs I of course put them to good use. Now setting the LSi15's to small & setting the XO at 80hz & spending the time to integrate them properly the LSi15's were literally transformed right before my listening ears.

I know a lot of guys downplay adding a sub/subs to their system & are quite happy without them & I truly understand their point of view. I was in that same camp for years & thumbed my nose at even the mention of a sub for my 2 channel pleasure. Fast forward a few years & after a ton of research & listening to systems with subs, I started to see the light & my thinking started to slowly change. The hardest part was letting go of my manhood & the notion that my speakers were quite capable of producing very respectable low end, which they were spec wise but that simply doesn't tell the whole story. What throws a lot of folk's off is that they think that adding a sub is simply to dig down to the lowest of the low bass notes. Man oh man that couldn't be farther from the truth and there's a whole host of musical reasons & attributes that a sub brings to the table.

As far as the OP's thinking that the 3rd time is the charm with the LSi15's he's better think again. If he's not willing to shake things up a bit then it's time to move on to something else. There's so much out there to listen too & I'm sure he will find a pair of speakers that has his name written all over them.

stretchl

C,mon fellas. Who really, truly LIKED their first beer? Some things are high e nough on the "quality of life" scale that they merit further investigation.

geppy1

Gotta love it. I have always loved how people can throw out an idea and get some abuse for it. I do not think I have ever done that ,anywhere on a site.
1) "An understanding of audio"" FYI I worked in the biz back in the day and trained people in technical and product so I am, pretty sure I 'understand it"
2)For the "dude". What will change?? Well, there appears to be the woofer change out mod which seems to address the situation.

I have had Advents, Avids, Vandersteens, VR2, Infinitys, Monitor 10s ,RTA 12b and C, RTA 15,LS 90s, LSI 15s, SDA1, SDA2, SDA1C, SDA2B and I swear one of the more musical and well balanced speakers is the the RTA 12B and C

I will have to think about it

Thanks for the responses.

tonyb

Phil, we all have our preferences but setting them to small/crossed at 80, your taking some mid bass away and putting them onto the subs. Which btw are excellent subs for musical reproduction. So in transforming your speakers, as you say, I would suggest the sound overall was transformed, not the speakers themselves. Could not the same results been had with LSI9's and those 2 subs ?

mantis

tonyb wrote: »

Have to agree and disagree here Dan. While proper calibration is essential for a good low end, you first have to have a vehicle cable of such. Many floorstanders today can do low bass all on their own with out assistance. Sometimes the discussion of low bass comes down to many trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip. What they want to hear and what they are willing to pay for is miles apart in some cases.

Also, if you bought floorstanders such as the LSI15 or comparable/larger speakers and are setting them to small, I would suggest you bought the wrong speaker then for your application. I don't think I have ever heard a big speaker set to small that sounded good since that option became available.

I also agree and disagree with you on this.
Knowing what you own and expecting more will never happen.
Setting the LSi15's to small actually cleaned them up considerably. As pearsall001 mentioned how his sounded, mine did the same exact thing.
I also had the LSi9's and they did not sound as good as the Lsi15's. I felt the LSi9's where the red headed step child out of the LSi line. I owned them all. The Lsi15 sounded much more clear and clean even when ran in large. The LSI9 is a muddy sounding poorly designed speaker IMO. I thought the crossover settings, the cabinet or something went wrong when they designed them. However the Lsi7's sounded amazing compared.
I looked at it like this, if the speaker is getting low and and doing it poorly, I'll take it away and let what it does great shine through. They where so much clearer and nice to enjoy in Small 80hz. I tried going 60 but they started to get funny so 80hz was the magic number for them and I never felt like I was slighting myself LOL.

mantis

pearsall001 wrote: »

I also had the LSi15's & experienced pretty much what everyone has said before that they lacked in quality bass reproduction. On the upside the mid's & top end were excellent. With that being said I did a lot of experimenting to really see what they could do. On their own running full range they simply fell short of my expectations. They did however sound very, very good & I'm sure a lot of folk's would have been more than happy with them as is. However since I do have at my disposable a twin pair of superb Velo subs I of course put them to good use. Now setting the LSi15's to small & setting the XO at 80hz & spending the time to integrate them properly the LSi15's were literally transformed right before my listening ears.

I know a lot of guys downplay adding a sub/subs to their system & are quite happy without them & I truly understand their point of view. I was in that same camp for years & thumbed my nose at even the mention of a sub for my 2 channel pleasure. Fast forward a few years & after a ton of research & listening to systems with subs, I started to see the light & my thinking started to slowly change. The hardest part was letting go of my manhood & the notion that my speakers were quite capable of producing very respectable low end, which they were spec wise but that simply doesn't tell the whole story. What throws a lot of folk's off is that they think that adding a sub is simply to dig down to the lowest of the low bass notes. Man oh man that couldn't be farther from the truth and there's a whole host of musical reasons & attributes that a sub brings to the table.

As far as the OP's thinking that the 3rd time is the charm with the LSi15's he's better think again. If he's not willing to shake things up a bit then it's time to move on to something else. There's so much out there to listen too & I'm sure he will find a pair of speakers that has his name written all over them.

Ditto

pearsall001

tonyb wrote: »

Phil, we all have our preferences but setting them to small/crossed at 80, your taking some mid bass away and putting them onto the subs. Which btw are excellent subs for musical reproduction. So in transforming your speakers, as you say, I would suggest the sound overall was transformed, not the speakers themselves. Could not the same results been had with LSI9's and those 2 subs ?

Tony, let's not forget that those XO setting are by no means a brick wall. There's bleed thru both +/- of the desired setting. A XO setting at 80hz is great for speakers that can hit 40hz (+/-) with authority & without the least bit of distortion (my Q900's have even better spec's than this). Now let's not scoff here because most really good speakers are fine at performing to 40hz without a hiccup. However remember when I said that I needed to let go of my manhood when it comes to this! LOL!. Now the LSi15's midrange actually really blossomed with the 80hz XO setting. They weren't competing with the bass drivers & vise versa. The LSi9's would be great paired with my Velo's, I only wish I had the opportunity to own a pair.

Here's a very informative chart showing instrument & vocal frequencies in pretty good detail. Take note of the mid-range and piano. Man when get the piano notes singing you're on your way to some awesome tunes.http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/images/main_chart.jpg

aboroth00

tonyb wrote: »

Have to agree and disagree here Dan. While proper calibration is essential for a good low end, you first have to have a vehicle cable of such. Many floorstanders today can do low bass all on their own with out assistance. Sometimes the discussion of low bass comes down to many trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip. What they want to hear and what they are willing to pay for is miles apart in some cases.

Also, if you bought floorstanders such as the LSI15 or comparable/larger speakers and are setting them to small, I would suggest you bought the wrong speaker then for your application. I don't think I have ever heard a big speaker set to small that sounded good since that option became available.

Again, I have to disagree with you again about subs. A lot of speakers can do low bass WELL all on their own in an anechoic chamber but in room is a different issue. The room is the issue and plays havoc with bass in room. It's simply, in a bad room (most untreated rooms) makes a good speaker sound bad but put a bad speaker in a good room and you'd still get a bad speaker.

There is nothing wrong with crossing a large floorstander with a sub. I have gone this over and over with you and I thought you would learn something about the science of bass reproduction. If you never heard a big speaker sound good with a sub, I'd recommend visiting audio trade shows or someone with a subwoofer in their system. There are plenty out there. A subwoofer simply is a source that reproduces the last 1-2 octaves of sound and can do it more ideally if integrated properly. There's no magic behind a subwoofer. You can even think of it as a bass module to your speakers, such as some speakers with separated hi-mid cabinets from the bass cabinets.

We have to look at this in a realistic perspective. A sub cannot help a bad speaker sound good, but it can alleviate room interaction problems. Whether what you're hearing is a room interaction or not, you have to figure out yourself though and your ear probably can't discern a bad bass from a speaker or a bad bass from the room because they're one in the same.

aboroth00

Settings: High pass: 80hz, Low pass: 50hz, (both at 12db/octave) no smoothing, no EQ

Since I have recently changed out gear and moved the speakers around, I re-ran some comparison tests to see what I'm doing with the movements and gear changes. My speakers are flatish to 30hz and have usable output to ~28hz. Pretty much full range to most people but there's a huge dip in the midbass region. Is it audible? Yes, I lose some of the kick drum slam and sense of heft in the region.

Here comes in the sub to compensate. Even though the sub is set well below the 90hz dip (sub comes in at 50hz @ 12db/octave), it alleviates the dip there. Did the sub help? Sure thing. The sub also blends seemlessly into the speaker with a slight bump in the 50hz and 80hz region which is ~+/-5db which isn't very conspicuous to my ear.

However the sub doesn't really affect much above 100-200hz where the speaker's woofers take over. So the can't really help in this department. FYI, the sub also helps resonances from the speakers and the waterfalls look much cleaner and there is less audible overhang so bass sounds much quicker on drums.

nooshinjohn

The simple answer to your question would be a resounding no. I would recommend going after the LSi/M 703's before going back to the -15's. I had them as mains in my rig for a week or two before I moved them to rear surrounds.

Erik Tracy

aboroth00 wrote: »

Again, I have to disagree with you again about subs. A lot of speakers can do low bass WELL all on their own in an anechoic chamber but in room is a different issue. The room is the issue and plays havoc with bass in room. It's simply, in a bad room (most untreated rooms) makes a good speaker sound bad but put a bad speaker in a good room and you'd still get a bad speaker.

There is nothing wrong with crossing a large floorstander with a sub. I have gone this over and over with you and I thought you would learn something about the science of bass reproduction. If you never heard a big speaker sound good with a sub, I'd recommend visiting audio trade shows or someone with a subwoofer in their system. There are plenty out there. A subwoofer simply is a source that reproduces the last 1-2 octaves of sound and can do it more ideally if integrated properly. There's no magic behind a subwoofer. You can even think of it as a bass module to your speakers, such as some speakers with separated hi-mid cabinets from the bass cabinets.

We have to look at this in a realistic perspective. A sub cannot help a bad speaker sound good, but it can alleviate room interaction problems. Whether what you're hearing is a room interaction or not, you have to figure out yourself though and your ear probably can't discern a bad bass from a speaker or a bad bass from the room because they're one in the same.

This is all relative though and one must consider the specific components in question....not just 'science'.

Just because one has a sub does not guarantee the best sound - there are cheap and crappy subs which may be sonically inferior to LF drivers in tower enclosures.

Therein lies the 'rule' that I subscribe to in that you let your ears decide what is better.

pearsall001

DSkip wrote: »

Setting mine to 80 would be an atrocity. At the get-together, someone brought over a bass sweep CD and tested on my 6311's. They hit 30 hz superbly and hit 20 hz with authority, though it was evident the drop-off had started occurring. I think too many people get caught up on the 80 hz setting and forget that, with some speakers, you can truly run them full-range and get excellent quality.

Dang...20Hz from a single 7" driver with authority no less. Interesting to say the least.

aboroth00

Erik Tracy wrote: »

This is all relative though and one must consider the specific components in question....not just 'science'.

Just because one has a sub does not guarantee the best sound - there are cheap and crappy subs which may be sonically inferior to LF drivers in tower enclosures.

Therein lies the 'rule' that I subscribe to in that you let your ears decide what is better.

Well there's no point in talking about subs if we're talking about crappy subs. Bad speakers sound bad. But I'm talking about decent quality subs. One sub does not guarantee the best sound, but in most cases it will be an improvement especially with EQ, if the room is lacking. Your ears can decide what is better, but your ears are pretty bad setup devices for bass (low sensitivity in the bass region). That's where the "science" and measurements come into play. This is why professional installers, recording engineers, acousticians treat and measure rooms.

aboroth00

pearsall001 wrote: »

Dang...20Hz from a single 7" driver with authority no less. Interesting to say the least.

I can barely hear 20hz... You might have been hearing a harmonic. 20hz with authority, you're looking at 100db+ to make that audible with authority which I sort of doubt with the speaker...

Erik Tracy

aboroth00 wrote: »

Well there's no point in talking about subs if we're talking about crappy subs. Bad speakers sound bad. But I'm talking about decent quality subs. One sub does not guarantee the best sound, but in most cases it will be an improvement especially with EQ, if the room is lacking. Your ears can decide what is better, but your ears are pretty bad setup devices for bass (low sensitivity in the bass region). That's where the "science" and measurements come into play. This is why professional installers, recording engineers, acousticians treat and measure rooms.

And, is there some sort of empirical database that shows that ALL tower speaker models and brands do poorer with bass response and will ALWAYS benefit from subs?

The whitewash seems to be splashing about with all this talk of 'science' that in room freq response with towers (or even bookshelves) will always benefit from being crossed over in conjunction with a sub.

Or..[doing my Pirates of the Caribbean impersonation]... are these just 'guidelines'...arrrr.... :cheesygrin:

lanchile

geppy1 wrote: »

I have tried the Polk LSI 15 twice before and loved the looks and most of the sound except the bass. UIt seemed disconnected from the rest of the spectrum and may be a bit boomy. I have heard this from a number of other folks also. It is not the room. Before I even think of trying this again is there any way to correct this with the speaker?? thanks

if you want to improve the bass and make it tighter just use a bag of this in each speaker http://www.parts-express.com/acousta-stuf-polyfill-speaker-cabinet-sound-damping-material-1-lb-bag--260-317

aboroth00

Erik Tracy wrote: »

And, is there some sort of empirical database that shows that ALL tower speaker models and brands do poorer with bass response and will ALWAYS benefit from subs?

The whitewash seems to be splashing about with all this talk of 'science' that in room freq response with towers (or even bookshelves) will always benefit from being crossed over in conjunction with a sub.

Or..[doing my Pirates of the Caribbean impersonation]... are these just 'guidelines'...arrrr.... :cheesygrin:

Sure. Just use a room simulator available on the internet in REW, plug in your room dimensions and it'll show you the peaks and nulls you'll get with your room's dimensions. Use a sub or speaker with EQ, if you want to EQ your speaker instead of use a sub with EQ, you can usually alleviate those peaks and nulls. The room usually dominates in the first two octaves, so it's applicable for all speakers of all models, etc. Of course you can always build a speaker to handle room interactions which would be pretty kickin'.

ARGHH... guidelines yes. But it's pretty much applicable for most untreated rooms and setups.

Erik Tracy

aboroth00 wrote: »

Sure. Just use a room simulator available on the internet in REW, plug in your room dimensions and it'll show you the peaks and nulls you'll get with your room's dimensions. Use a sub or speaker with EQ, if you want to EQ your speaker instead of use a sub with EQ, you can usually alleviate those peaks and nulls. The room usually dominates in the first two octaves, so it's applicable for all speakers of all models, etc. Of course you can always build a speaker to handle room interactions which would be pretty kickin'.

ARGHH... guidelines yes. But it's pretty much applicable for most untreated rooms and setups.

I'm just trying to clarify exactly what you are claiming in regards to the use of subs....so don't take this as eye poking.

So...every single tower ever made will always benefit from a 'good quality' sub (whatever that means) and needs to be set to 'small' and crossed over to ensure better in room response (assuming no room treatments)..and we will ignore the possible/real detrimental effects of poorly executed bass management components and multiple domain conversions (such as an AVR).

Not to be combative, but that still seems to be a subjective guideline and it still comes down to the 'ear of the beholder'.