Polk LSI15 Should I again?

aboroth00

Erik Tracy wrote: »

I'm just trying to clarify exactly what you are claiming in regards to the use of subs....so don't take this as eye poking.

So...every single tower ever made will always benefit from a 'good quality' sub (whatever that means) and needs to be set to 'small' and crossed over to ensure better in room response (assuming no room treatments)..and we will ignore the possible/real detrimental effects of poorly executed bass management components and multiple domain conversions (such as an AVR).

Not to be combative, but that still seems to be a subjective guideline and it still comes down to the 'ear of the beholder'.

Hmm... to generalize all speakers... that's a tough one. I think you want to draw the line somewhere and that's a tough one as well. Usually for most rooms, a quality sub properly EQ-ed, positioned and calibrated will benefit in room response, extension, and headroom. I think you're looking at it from a different angle than I am. I'm thinking the room, which is the party which is primarily responsible for augmenting bass reproduction. If a sub isn't set to "small" or there isn't a HP along with the LP, you'd have overlapping of frequencies which would most likely cause cancellation issues.

In most cases, the possible/real detriments of bass management components and multiple domain conversions are outweighed by taming in-room response. Audible THD, distortion in the bass region is much less audible than non-linear bass response.

I don't meant to be combative either, but in-room response in most rooms is down to a science. We have simulators, in-room measurements, EQ, waterfalls, to predict what the room is doing. A sub is an easy way to locate bass reproduction in a more ideal location, and cross with the speakers to create a seemless experience. It's a tool in your arsenal, no more and no less. It's a very effective tool, IMO. You can see in my prior post of actual response, measurements and impressions. If you ever measured your setup, you might be pleasantly surprised by what you see/hear.

Erik Tracy

aboroth00 wrote: »

Hmm... to generalize all speakers... that's a tough one. I think you want to draw the line somewhere and that's a tough one as well. Usually for most rooms, a quality sub properly EQ-ed, positioned and calibrated will benefit in room response, extension, and headroom. I think you're looking at it from a different angle than I am. I'm thinking the room, which is the party which is primarily responsible for augmenting bass reproduction. If a sub isn't set to "small" or there isn't a HP along with the LP, you'd have overlapping of frequencies which would most likely cause cancellation issues.

In most cases, the possible/real detriments of bass management components and multiple domain conversions are outweighed by taming in-room response. Audible THD, distortion in the bass region is much less audible than non-linear bass response.

I don't meant to be combative either, but in-room response in most rooms is down to a science. We have simulators, in-room measurements, EQ, waterfalls, to predict what the room is doing. A sub is an easy way to locate bass reproduction in a more ideal location, and cross with the speakers to create a seemless experience. It's a tool in your arsenal, no more and no less. It's a very effective tool, IMO. You can see in my prior post of actual response, measurements and impressions. If you ever measured your setup, you might be pleasantly surprised by what you see/hear.

So - I'll admit to not actually measuring my system, but I have done some time involving listening tests.

I have a hybrid HT/music setup that uses both an AVR and an integrated amp with HT Direct (bypass) and I can actually have my sub hooked up using both the LFE input and Line Level, but not at the same time.

I have my bookshelves speaker set to small when run thru the avr and crossed over at 60hz (so the avr provides active high and low pass freqs to the speakers and sub).

When I use just the int amp in HT bypass, then obviously they are run full range and I manually set the sub crossover for low pass upper freq.

The thing is, when I tested what I hear for music via the AVR and the Int Amp, I prefer the overall presentation of just the Int Amp (which means the speakers are getting full range).

Maybe it is having more bass 'fill' being provided by my limited bookshelves to even out untreated room nodes.

What I'm suggesting is that everything matters for the in ear experience...there are just too many other variables aside from a flat freq response.

aboroth00

Erik Tracy wrote: »

So - I'll admit to not actually measuring my system, but I have done some time involving listening tests.

I have a hybrid HT/music setup that uses both an AVR and an integrated amp with HT Direct (bypass) and I can actually have my sub hooked up using both the LFE input and Line Level, but not at the same time.

I have my bookshelves speaker set to small when run thru the avr and crossed over at 60hz (so the avr provides active high and low pass freqs to the speakers and sub).

When I use just the int amp in HT bypass, then obviously they are run full range and I manually set the sub crossover for low pass upper freq.

The thing is, when I tested what I hear for music via the AVR and the Int Amp, I prefer the overall presentation of just the Int Amp (which means the speakers are getting full range).

Maybe it is having more bass 'fill' being provided by my limited bookshelves to even out untreated room nodes.

What I'm suggesting is that everything matters for the in ear experience...there are just too many other variables aside from a flat freq response.

I have a similar setup as well with bookshelves and a sub. My bookshelves can go down to F3 at 25hz but as you can see from the graph, I get a wicked dip even in my treated room. However, I must say because I can measure my setup, I ended up with a very odd HP and LP of 80 and 50hz, respectively, something I would've never done if I couldn't have seen.

I understand your suggestions that it's a preference of an in-ear experience, but I stress the criticality of good in-room response for the matters of the in-ear experience. A poor frequency response robs you of so much, the benefits of a good frequency response outweighs the detractors. In the bass region, the other variables do not outweigh good in-room response.


In your setup, for all we know, the sub might be doing something very funky. I had been using my ears, upgrading equipment, yadda yadda what we do, but my most valuable investment so far has been that darn 100$ mic.

skrol

I mentioned positioning already. I also have found (today) that the pre-amp, main amp and speaker cable matter. In my case I have a long run of speaker cable (25 feet) and presently it is only 14 awg. This length and gauge can add enough resistance to really reduce the damping factor of the system. I tried moving the amp closer with short runs of 12 awg and the bass was much cleaner. I wish I could keep it this way but logistics... I am planning to get some 10 awg Belden.

Also, while my old Denon receiver can drive these speakers all day and stay relatively cool, my refreshed Parasound C/PT600 and HCA-800II tightens up the bass quite nicely. However, using the Denon as a pre-amp feeding the HCA-800II did not sound as good as just using the Denon alone.

I am hoping that the Parasound pre and main amp along with 10 awg cable and possibly some bass traps will be golden. Then I'll think about XO upgrades.

Stan