Advice on RTiA9 Set-up with Pioneer SC-68?

Brithon

Recently purchased a set of RtiA9's and looking for advice on hook-up and recommendations on amp.
My current amp is a Pioneer Elite SC-68 at 140 W/channel running in 7.1.
Surrounds are polk F/x's, with rears being R50's.

Presently I have the A9's biamped from two of the spare channels offered on the SC-68 (SC-68 can do up to 11.1).
Reading through some of the forums here, and elsewhere, there is conflicting opinion on the topic of the A9's requiring more power than 140W to really shine. The Elite series excels at delivering actual rated power to all channels but I have read that you should drive them with at least 200+W (i.e. Emotiva power amp, etc).

The SC-68 is a beefy amp being Pioneer's flagship model, but is there much added benefit to investing another $1000 in the poweramp or is it simply diminishing returns at this point? At the moment they seem to sound great but I am curious what the difference, if any, when driving them at 200W vs 140W. They are already ridiculously loud from the SC-68 without any distortion as it is.

Anyone here have any experience running the A9's off the Elite series amps?

Secondly I was wondering if biamping them from the SC-68 had any real benefit or not. I have tried them both biamped and not and did not notice much of a difference sound wise, in either clarity or power. Any real benefit to wiring this way versus not (i.e. speaker longevity, damage, etc)? I have read that biamping is not really biamping unless you willing to bypass the internal crossover in the speaker by wiring it direct via an external crossover. Any thoughts, advice?

Thanks,

Aaron

F1nut

There isn't an AVR made that will drive those speakers properly, even the Pioneer Elite SC series. So, adding an amp isn't a bad idea, but not the one you mentioned. An inherently bright amp and bright speakers are not a good match.

Not only do you need active crossovers, you need separate amps, each with its own power supply not the shared power supply in ALL AVR's. Bottom line, you can't bi-amp with an AVR. Something you can do to improve the sound is to replace the stock plate jumpers with high quality speaker cable.

Hermitism

I had heard so much about bi-amping before coming to this forum. H.H. Gregg sales people really push that term to buyers in order to make a sale. You guys should create a thread called "Everything You Need To Know About Bi-Amping" and make it a Sticky at the top of the Basic Hookup/Wiring Questions thread. Someone asks about bi-amping every week, and it's not their fault for being told incorrect information from sales people. I'm so glad I found this forum.

There should be another sticky about WPC and how inaccurate manufacturers' stats are.

Brithon

Thanks for the reply. Any advice on a poweramp that would complement the A9's if not the Emotiva's?
Preferably one that isn't going to require a second mortgage? :P

Hermitism

Everyone here recommends Parasound or B&K amps for RTI/RTiA speakers. Takes that edge of those higher frequencies without losing detail.

mantis

The SC-68 has real world power. It can run large Home theater rooms with ease. Your speakers are not hard to drive at all but do benefit from more current if you added external power amps. I think with the quality of speakers you are running, the SC-68 is a awesome match. I think you would benefit from going with higher end speakers then adding power amps to your setup.
I don't think it's necessary unless you have a very large room and your running out of gas with the SC-68. Which by your post your not and I didn't expect you to.
I also own the SC-68 and find it to be a very good solid unit for home theater and some very nice 2 channel listening.
I don't care for internal bi amping with avr's even with the SC-68. I think your better off just running a 2 conductor or a Bi wire if you want to remove the jumpers of high quality wire.

Thorton

F1nut wrote: »

There isn't an AVR made that will drive those speakers properly, even the Pioneer Elite SC series. So, adding an amp isn't a bad idea, but not the one you mentioned. An inherently bright amp and bright speakers are not a good match.

Not only do you need active crossovers, you need separate amps, each with its own power supply not the shared power supply in ALL AVR's. Bottom line, you can't bi-amp with an AVR. Something you can do to improve the sound is to replace the stock plate jumpers with high quality speaker cable.

F1's always right on target. I own the A9's, never have owned a Pioneer receiver, and will tell you that these speakers like a lot of good, clean current to bring out the best in them. Most members that own these will probably mention the same comment. If your satisfied with the Pioneer great, enjoy. If you want to see the full potential, buy an amp. You can always sell it.

WLDock

I think all have said it already....The Elite SC-68 is about as good as it gets in the price range as far as power from an AVR. Given that 9's can take so much you will have to go big for it to make sense on spending more money on an amp....250-300 watts a ch. I guess it all depends on what you are after.

cfrizz

Welcome Brithon!

You should definitely get a nice powerful amp to get your speakers to operate to their full potential. If you are willing to buy used gear look on Audiogon for Sunfire, Rotel, B&K, Parasound amps. If you want new as you have noticed Emotiva offers good bang for the buck also check out Outlaw Audio.

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/multi-ch-original-19-sunfire-cinema-grand-serviced-by-flannery-s-vintage-audio-2014-01-16-amplifiers-98290-snohomish-wa
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/multi-ch-sunfire-tga-5400-power-ampliifer-5ch-x-400w-like-new-condition-2014-01-20-amplifiers-95742
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/multi-ch-b-k-components-reference-200-7-s2-2014-01-21-amplifiers-07650-palisades-park-nj

drummer86

You don't have to spend $1K to power those A9's either. Just get a 2-channel amp for the pair and run everything else off the Pioneer. Used B&Ks and Parasounds can be had for $400-600 all day.

Brithon

Thanks for the welcome and all the advice.

I love the SC-68 for its features, clean sound, solid build, DAC, etc. I was hesitant to ditch my Yamaha for the Pioneer but so far I have been impressed with its performance. It took a bit of getting adjusted as Yamaha's tend to have a slightly warmer sound I find. But the calibration features on the SC-68 are simply awesome and delivers Movie Cinema sound like nothing I have heard short of custom installed home cinema.

After reading some of the comments here regarding the A9's I will definately start shopping around for a two channel power amp to drive them off the pre-outs.

Another question regarding subwoofer hook up for those with AVR's:
On my previous amp I opted to run the sub from the pre-outs to the left and right channels via paried connector to the dual ports on the sub. Afterwhich I selected "No Sub" to push all LFE to the mains dialing via the crossover filter on the sub. On the new amp I decided to use the "Sub Out" port on the amp versus the preouts and let the amp handle the crossover.

Any recommendations as to which method is superior?

I appreciate all the help and will return feedback on the power amp/AVR comparison once I decide on an amp for the A9's.

Thanks again!

WLDock

There is no reason that I know of not to use the Subwoofer preouts or LFE channel.

http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/Assets/US/Doc/Professional/38_LFE.pdf

Brithon

Found a good price on a used Parasound HCA2205A 220WPC x 5 power amp and awaiting shipment.

http://www.parasound.com/vintage/hca2205a.php

Also ordered an upgrade for the center channel from the CSi30 I owned, to a CsiA6. Since the Parasound has separate power supplies for each channel I figured I would biamp the A9's and use the remaining fifth channel for the center channel to beef up the front stage. Leaving the SC-68 to run the 4 surrounds.

The Csi30 was only rated at 150 W so I argued that the beefier CsiA6 with its 200W rating should be able to handle the load from the Parasound. I am a little concerned that extra 20W over the rating may damage the speaker, but I assume that I will not need to crank the volume on this rig to anywhere near its maximum. Anyone have any advice or experience on this?

Still waiting on the delivery of the amp and speaker. I will be sure to post feedback when they arrive. Hopefully this setup will do what I want and bring out the magic of those A9's.

Thanks for the great advice from all the Polkies!

tonyb

Advice ? Never, ever....crank the volume even close to the maximum regardless. No, you won't hurt the speaker by feeding it more power, and I wouldn't bi-amp them, just hook up one channel per speaker and that's more than enough. Use those other channels of the amp on the surrounds.

Brithon

tonyb wrote: »

Advice ? Never, ever....crank the volume even close to the maximum regardless. No, you won't hurt the speaker by feeding it more power, and I wouldn't bi-amp them, just hook up one channel per speaker and that's more than enough. Use those other channels of the amp on the surrounds.

Doesn't it make more sense to drive the woofer section of A9's with a separate 220W as it will have the additional headroom without the drain from the mid's and tweeter?

cfrizz

The whole reason for getting such a powerful amp is so that you don't have to worry about power, or extra cables for that matter. Thre is no way that there will be a drain from the mid's & tweeter with that amp. Keep it simple and just hook it up the normal way.

WLDock

Brithon wrote: »

Doesn't it make more sense to drive the woofer section of A9's with a separate 220W as it will have the additional headroom without the drain from the mid's and tweeter?

You linked the specs but maybe look them over again? Here are the highlights:


Designed by John Curl
THX certified by Lucasfilm Ltd.

Massive encapsulated 2 kVA toroid power transformer
30,000 uF power supply capacitance for each channel
8 complementary pairs of 15 ampere 60 MHz output transistors per channel

Continuous Power Output - Each Channel:
220 watts RMS x 5, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 8 Ω, all channels driven;
300 watts RMS x 5, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 4 Ω, all channels driven

Current Capacity:
60 amperes peak per channel

Power Consumption:
1500 watts

Net Weight:
85 lb.


You my friend just stepped up to some serious power! A current hog! You really only needed a 2 or 3 channel amp. However, I agree with the others... since you have it...I would run the 5 channels with the amp and use the SC-68 to power for the last 2. Use quality wire..12 gauge, etc.

badchad

Brithon wrote: »

Still waiting on the delivery of the amp and speaker. I will be sure to post feedback when they arrive. Hopefully this setup will do what I want and bring out the magic of those A9's.

Thanks for the great advice from all the Polkies!

Please do. I'm always interested in hearing people's accounts of moving to separates.

Scooterp7

I'd recommend that if you are on a tight budget, invest in pro-amps.

Yamaha or Behringer are fine. Crown XLS also.

http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global/en/products/poweramps/ps_series/
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/EP2000.aspx

F1nut

Waste of good money.

Scooterp7

Waste of good money indeed.

http://scientopia.org/blogs/goodmath/2011/12/30/audiophiles-and-the-need-to-be-special/

http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths

F1nut

Let me rephrase that, a complete waste of good money.

Brithon

F1nut wrote: »

Let me rephrase that, a complete waste of good money.

Are you referring to the Parasound amp being a waste of money or to Scooterp7's post?

F1nut

To Scooterp7's suggestion to use pro gear.

tonyb

F1nut wrote: »

Let me rephrase that, a complete waste of good money.

LOL....Short and sweet, to the point, and of course...spot on.

4xoddic

F1nut wrote: »

Let me rephrase that, a complete waste of good money.

Please elaborate with which model of Yamaha P-S you've heard. Same for you, tonyb!

I'm quite content with my P7000S powering my RTiA9s over my SC-07's performance. Price paid was < $700 from a Yamaha dealer w/warranty. 700 W

tonyb

4xoddic wrote: »

Please elaborate with which model of Yamaha P-S you've heard. Same for you, tonyb!

I'm quite content with my P7000S powering my RTiA9s over my SC-07's performance. Price paid was < $700 from a Yamaha dealer w/warranty. 700 W

F1nut

4xoddic wrote: »

Please elaborate with which model of Yamaha P-S you've heard. Same for you, tonyb!

Like Tony, I do not believe I have heard that model, but looking at the guts it doesn't appear to be much different from other pro amps I have heard. The problem with pro amps for home use is they are less sonically pure at the higher frequencies. They have a lot protection mechanisms, which add to the noise floor. Even the fan(s), whether on or not are still in the circuit adding more noise. Most these days use switching power supplies, which again affect the quality of the sound. Pro amps are about brute force and lack the finesse of a good home audio amp.

I'm quite content with my P7000S powering my RTiA9s over my SC-07's performance. Price paid was < $700 from a Yamaha dealer w/warranty. 700 W

Brithon

Both amp and new center channel arrived today. After spending an hour hooking it all in, (followed by another irritating hour chasing a speaker buzzing ground loop) all I have to say is damn! The bass that came ripping out out of those A9's punched me square in chest. I nearly fell over in surprise. Unreal difference. Especially when it came to playing music. It was even a bigger shock when I realized I hadn't plugged my sub in properly during the initial test run and the glorious bass effects that I was experiencing were solely coming out of A9's.

Taking the advice here I opted to not biamp the A9's and re-jumpered the posts just to have a baseline comparison. I wired in the new CsiA6 from the Parasound and left all the surrounds on the SC-68 (didn't have enough 12 ga to rerun the L-R surrounds, will opt to hook up later). Reran the AutoCal from receiver and then started to play around. I have to say I was originally impressed with speakers running from the Elite, but the difference from the Parasound is like night and day. Not much detectable difference in the highs, both were still very clear and a little bright (still had to tweak the EQ down a little on the high end), but the lows are distinctly punchier coming off the Parasound. Very impressive. I still have a hint of a buzz from the fronts and center channel that is audible if you place your ear close to the speakers, however I will see if I can further chase down the problem later (the first major ground loop problem originated from the TV Cable which I disconnected from my hair pulling search earlier).

One of my favorite films to test audio system performance is Star Wars: Episode 1. Terrible film, but I give Lucas credit as the sound is incredible throughout the entire movie. The pod racing scene especially, as it has loads of directional sound and periods of pounding LFE that I find works great for tweaking. The light saber duel also has a whole range of frequencies and directional effects that are just brilliant. A great combo on one disc.

I cued up those two scenes and immediately noticed a difference in the pod racing as the LFE effects would wash over you in waves of glorious bass. Those same frequencies were present when played through SC-68 but not to the same impact, coming off slightly mute in comparison. The difference was less noticeable in the light saber duel, however the explosions during the space battle did have more kick to them.

The real contrast was when I started playing some tunes. Started off just Airplaying from the iPhone just because I hadn't gotten all the cabling hooked into the DAC and was too lazy at the time to run and fetch the laptop.

Started off with some bassier tunes, Eminem, T-Payne, etc. Again not my favorite music (I prefer bands like Tool, NIN, Scorpions, Dio, and the like), but wanted something with some kick behind it. Again the lows coming out of those cabinets ran circles around the SC-68 as it they proceeded to vibrate and knock over several DVD's I had precarious perched on a nearby shelf. I think I did my best impression of the Cheshire Cat at that point as the grin on my face went from ear to ear.

As far as the difference from my older Csi30 to the CsiA6 I haven't really noticed a lot of differences between them. In looking at the two the A6 is a monster in comparison at nearly twice the size of the other. However, even when hooked up to the Parasound the change was subtle if any at all. I did notice that the character voices seem to have wider sound space, but perhaps that was only placebo. It could also be my speaker positioning which unfortunately is wedged in behind the flat panel TV and perhaps acoustically ringing off the back of the monitor and enclosure walls of the entertainment unit. One problem I did notice is that for some reason the AutoCal on the SC-68 would always seem to indicate a reverse phase on the A6 even though I checked the wiring three times as correct. An issue not displayed using the Csi30. I haven't tried reversing the leads yet to see if that corrects the AutoCal but during testing, speech and sound seemed fine and in phase with the rest of the system. I will have to look at this further unless anyone else here has had similar experience they would like to share?

Bottom line, the Parasound did make a significant impact in the A9's performance and I understand why people were insisting they need a little more juice to bring them out fully. Definitely a pleasant surprise and I'm looking forward to fiddling a little more with them. Will tweak a little more over the next few days and see what other pixiedust can be shaken out.

I competely appreciate all the advice and assistance from everyone here!

F1nut

The reason you are getting the out of phase notice is because the sound waves are bouncing off the back of your TV and since the A6 is bigger, it's more of a problem. You really need to get the center out from behind the TV.

Scooterp7

Like he needed that amp to drive those surrounds! If an SC-68 can't drive that center, fxi's and R50's, why even spend the scratch for it. Al he needed was a 2 channel amp for the mains. He would have been just as well served with the BOTL Elite if he was going to amp all his channels.

Weren't you the one that said something about a waste of money!