very noob wire question.

gp4jesus

nguyendot wrote: »

...with their very impressive locking bananas. Good for the money.

R those available as add-ons? One of my amp's jacks are "loose fitting." Also $$/$$$?

Thnx in advance. Tony

gp4jesus

I'd pop for XO upgrades before $ing in the triple digits to connect one channel.

That and how can any company quantify "...a 5X to 14X performance improvement?!"

Finally "Sigh..." Yet another IC/wire thread.

PolkieMan

I use 12 gauge Monoprice wire and Monoprice banana plugs I am low end I guess compared to most everyone here
but I am still have a better system than everyone I know at work or family by a wide margin.

http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023901&p_id=2816&seq=1&format=2

http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=104&cp_id=10401&cs_id=1040115&p_id=2801&seq=1&format=2

F1nut

The only reason I'm going with blue jeans is for the reliability and good build so at least I know my cables will be 100 percent.Almost went for signal but only because they look so much nicer.

They are both Belden cable, Hello!

If my 10k speaker,10k room treatment,10 k amp doesn't make a difference doubt a little cable is going to do much if anything at all><.

Since you don't own any of that, why the comment?

I think there was a blind test somewhere in which a mit cable employee couldn't tell the difference between his cable and a no name brand.When the lights are off it's hard to tell...lol

One can find all sorts of Internet stories to support their beliefs however flawed they may be.

In an infamous blind test that proves this testing method has no merit no one could tell the difference between a Japanese receiver and a pair of OTL tube mono blocks. Do you seriously believe those results? No one else did either.

F1nut

No, they don't but those weren't the only cables I've heard either, just the cables mentioned in a discrete example. Again, I prefer to spend money on preamps, amps, and speakers where the bang for the buck isn't debatable but is palpable. I could spend hundreds or thousands on cables and perhaps get a perceived difference or spend that same money on other gear and get a guaranteed difference. Just one man's choice and one man's opinion on where his greenbacks go.

Isn't debatable? LOL......everything in this hobby is up for debate.

As far as the cable turning green I'll be curious to see if you hear a difference trying a different cable type.

It's a fact that oxidized copper is a poor conductor.

There have been a lot of blind A/B tests regarding audible differences between cables, in fact there are a lot of PDF's out there showing the result of such testing. I won't start the flame war by saying what the results in most of these tests have been, people can easily google these on their own or make their own determinations.

Even better, people should try things in their rig rather than rely on testing methods that are completely unreliable.

I'll say that for analog cables there is room for argument. For digital cables there is not.

You seriously think all digital cables are the same? Did you read that too?

F1nut

I think there was a big debacle with Pear Anjui cables and the Amazing Randy i.e. they wouldn't take his bet on people being able to A/B test and tell which one was theirs but there are tons of things like that out there.

The debacle was the rigged test.

northernwind

F1nut wrote: »

They are both Belden cable, Hello!



Since you don't own any of that, why the comment?



One can find all sorts of Internet stories to support their beliefs however flawed they may be.

In an infamous blind test that proves this testing method has no merit no one could tell the difference between a Japanese receiver and a pair of OTL tube mono blocks. Do you seriously believe those results? No one else did either.

No need to get offended,I respect your ability to hear the difference but I'm not even at a point where I should consider 1000 dollar cables.There is so,so much better things I can spend my money on to improve my system at this point.The only reason I comment on the room is because simply by moving my subwoofer I can already see the effect of a room..Hence without a doubt I can tell that room treatment would be awesome if one can afford it.Just because I don't own 10 k speakers doesn't mean I've never heard them so once again just speaking from that perspective.

Also,I said the only reason I was thinking signal is because the cables look nicer?I never said it offered any advantage so them both being belden,doesn't really bother me.Also read up the randi million dollar test,very intresting,you would think someone with golden ears would be 1million richer?That's why for me cables don't really matter to much as long as they don't rot or turn green.

Now I'm not trying to argue wiether you can hear it or not,clearly that's for you to tell

Edit-blue jean cable coming soon,will replace over home depot,wish for the best.

mccarty250

That is exactly what I was thinking, if the oxidation is on the surface and not in the ends you may be okay. If it turned up on an end a shot of deoxit and that would probably rectify it.

mikemokr wrote: »

This is true. At one point some years ago I did a bunch of reading about speaker cabling and came to the opinion I still hold now. (I admit it doesn't hurt that the WAF is strong on this one.) I keep an open mind though and will look up blind A/B test results. But bang/buck is what attracted me to Polk in the first place 25+ years ago, it's why I've chosen the A/V gear I run now and I'd have to be convinced - like in blind A/B testing in my own system - that there's sufficient return on investment in boutique cable. Of course the problem is how to test cable at home without buying it ...



Sure they do - a test of oxidized vs non-oxidized entry-level wire ;-). ... A separate test, without oxidation as a potential confound, would be non-oxidized generic 12-ga vs boutique 12-ga.

Anyway, having started to do some more research on my green Monster I'm actually curious whether the oxidation has any audible effect. The contact points are not green and I detect nothing indicating the insulation is grossly breaking down (no flaking, stickiness or greasiness - a few symptoms I've seen reported).

mccarty250

Agreed, this thrad is going to de-volve in 3...2...1....

gp4jesus wrote: »

I'd pop for XO upgrades before $ing in the triple digits to connect one channel.

That and how can any company quantify "...a 5X to 14X performance improvement?!"

Finally "Sigh..." Yet another IC/wire thread.

mccarty250

Your system looks pretty awesome to me PolkieMan. I'd take it in a heartbeat

PolkieMan wrote: »

I use 12 gauge Monoprice wire and Monoprice banana plugs I am low end I guess compared to most everyone here
but I am still have a better system than everyone I know at work or family by a wide margin.

http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023901&p_id=2816&seq=1&format=2

http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=104&cp_id=10401&cs_id=1040115&p_id=2801&seq=1&format=2

mccarty250

I've made a career out of digital data transmission for over two decades. There was definitely some reading involved in the process of designing and implementing global data networks so part of what you say is correct, I did 'read that too' as some of my knowledge was gained via reading.

I don't think that you would be swayed by anything that I would have to say on either topic and considering my experience in the subject matter I don't believe I will be swayed on the topic of digital data transmission myself. I don't claim to be omniscient or infallible but for me digital transmission is a living not a hobby.

Considering this, I don't believe that there is much value in continuing this discussion. I've lived it before in other forum threads, it somehow becomes a religious debate.

F1nut wrote: »

Isn't debatable? LOL......everything in this hobby is up for debate.

It's a fact that oxidized copper is a poor conductor.




Even better, people should try things in their rig rather than rely on testing methods that are completely unreliable.




You seriously think all digital cables are the same? Did you read that too?

mccarty250

There was no test that occurred to be rigged.

F1nut wrote: »

The debacle was the rigged test.

F1nut

That is exactly what I was thinking, if the oxidation is on the surface and not in the ends you may be okay. If it turned up on an end a shot of deoxit and that would probably rectify it.

Ummm....the signal travels on the surface.

I've made a career out of digital data transmission for over two decades.

Interesting. In that case one would think you would have known the above.

There was no test that occurred to be rigged.

The fact that it is rigged is why no one will participate.

Considering this, I don't believe that there is much value in continuing this discussion.

Probably best for you.

mccarty250

I've not participated much in the Polk forums, I hope that your aggression level isn't representative of what to expect here. I don't think the OP was trolling for a flame war and neither was I but that's what seems to have happened. I've just been perusing some other threads and have seen similar posts/behavior. Spending my time immersed in negativity isn't something I have a desire to do, you would have thought that this was a conservative vs liberal thread from the instant level of animosity that was garnered and the fervor/personal nature of how the discussion evolved. In that you are right, it is best for me to desist. The field is yours to proselytize alone, divergent opinions or the possibility that another is correct an impossibility.

F1nut wrote: »

Ummm....the signal travels on the surface.



Interesting. In that case one would think you would have known the above.



The fact that it is rigged is why no one will participate.



Probably best for you.

BlueFox

Use whatever cable you like. However, never assume that something cannot be better. Otherwise you are fooling yourself. Also, never for a moment think that because you work in a field that uses electronics that you have a background in audio. You don't. Even a PhD in Physics does not provide any insight into audio. However, your work and/or education can bias your thinking so that while you think you know everything, you are actually depriving yourself of the opportunity to learn something new.

F1nut

My aggression level.....LOL

It's not aggression, it's me being frank like always. I/we get tired of folks coming here jumping into cable threads with their negative attitude based on what they have read as opposed to what they have experienced.

mikemokr

Looking back I'm afraid my feeble attempt at humor may have tipped this thread into "yet another" cable debate. Sorry 'bout that. I've learned from what followed though. I'm open to there being audible improvements from more expensive cable; I'm also open to there being weaker links than wiring in my system for which my next available $____ might give greater tangible ROI. (I will replace the Green Monster though, probably with BJC for build quality/expected longevity if nothing else.)

Now, not to go off topic but I do have one quick question for F1, and not specific to cables. You mentioned "an infamous blind test that proves this testing method has no merit." Do you take issue with blind (preferably double-blind) A/B testing conceptually, or just with how it sometimes may be implemented by parties with vested interests? Without valid (unrigged) blind A/B testing I'm not sure how one avoids confirmation bias.

F1nut

Do you take issue with blind (preferably double-blind) A/B testing conceptually, or just with how it sometimes may be implemented by parties with vested interests?

Conceptually. Any test where the results average 50/50 is flawed by nature.

Without valid (unrigged) blind A/B testing I'm not sure how one avoids confirmation bias.

A question for the ages, I'm sure. There are many things in life where a blind A/B test is impractical, if not impossible, so why apply it to some if it can't be applied to all?

northernwind

F1nut wrote: »

Conceptually. Any test where the results average 50/50 is flawed by nature.



A question for the ages, I'm sure. There are many things in life where a blind A/B test is impractical, if not impossible, so why apply it to some if it can't be applied to all?

I didn't want to chime in but how is a 50/50 test flawed if the testing itself should not be 50 50 in the first place?It's like me putting on a blindfold and getting asked 100 times wiether this sound is a trumpet or a violin?

What I'm saying is if you can hear the cable then the testing itself shouldn't be 50/50....and if they were then that only means that the difference between cable is minimal at most to the point where half the time people can't even tell....But you are right if it's a 50/50 than eventually some joeschmoe will get the guessing right by pure chance?

tonyb

mikemokr wrote: »

Sure they do - a test of oxidized vs non-oxidized entry-level wire ;-). ... A separate test, without oxidation as a potential confound, would be non-oxidized generic 12-ga vs boutique 12-ga.

Well, first off....who would even want to do a test between oxidized cables and non oxidized ? Second, you have no "boutique" cables mentioned anywhere. Neither Monster or Monoprice are considered in that category. Thirdly, there's a hell of a lot of real estate between your 36 bucks and the 50,000 dollar cables you threw out there.

Fourthly....all this is mute if you like what you hear. Frankly if you use coat hangers and like the sound....rock on. Audio however is a journey more or less of discovery. If you don't care to take any steps on that journey, cool....but a lot of others do.

northernwind

tonyb wrote: »

Fourthly....all this is mute if you like what you hear. Frankly if you use coat hangers and like the sound....rock on.

Best quote of the topic so far.I concur with this,at the end of the day no one should judge anyone else.What people hear or don't hear is up to them and how much people spend/don't spend is also up to them.

tonyb

northernwind wrote: »

Best quote of the topic so far.I concur with this,at the end of the day no one should judge anyone else.What people hear or don't hear is up to them and how much people spend/don't spend is also up to them.

I agree...and have stated before audio is played on many levels and can accommodate any wallet to go along with that. If you can't afford another level, there's no shame in it, just don't poo-poo the others that can play on different levels. Make sense ?

We sometimes forget it's about the music and not the gear....even if the gear has a lot to do with the music we hear.

northernwind

tonyb wrote: »

If you can't afford another level, there's no shame in it, just don't poo-poo the others that can play on different levels. Make sense ?Sry I dont mean to sound arrogant.

Fix that for you,but choosing to spend high dollar on cable hardly makes you on a different level.I seen your cables on another thread,you make it sound like your driving a lambo or something?

Can I own those cables?Ofc I can,would I ever?Heck no,rather spend it on something more fulfilling for me.And that's not even me craping on you,just stating that people simply have different priority's.I just find it funny you think that your playing on a different level when your cable's are hardly grand.Get those mits that F1 suggested,that way you will truly be on another level.

Edit-Find it funny you agree with me,only to turn around and start judging lol.

F1nut

You missed Tony's point entirely.

F1nut

I didn't want to chime in but how is a 50/50 test flawed if the testing itself should not be 50 50 in the first place?

Think about that, I'm sure the answer will come to you.

PolkieMan

Thanks for the kind words, I hope to spend more on neat stuff in 2014 if the wife will stay out of the hospital.

mccarty250 wrote: »

Your system looks pretty awesome to me PolkieMan. I'd take it in a heartbeat

nguyendot

tonyb wrote: »

well, first off....who would even want to do a test between oxidized cables and non oxidized ? Second, you have no "boutique" cables mentioned anywhere. Neither monster or monoprice are considered in that category. Thirdly, there's a hell of a lot of real estate between your 36 bucks and the 50,000 dollar cables you threw out there.

Fourthly....all this is mute if you like what you hear. Frankly if you use coat hangers and like the sound....rock on. Audio however is a journey more or less of discovery. If you don't care to take any steps on that journey, cool....but a lot of others do.

moot!

headrott

F1nut wrote: »

Think about that, I'm sure the answer will come to you.

northernwind

F1nut wrote: »

Think about that, I'm sure the answer will come to you.

Why only quote that one part when my whole post clearly explains my point rather well?It confuses people like HEADROT who probably didn't even bother to read my post only to read what you quote and go along with it.

So let me just rephrase to get my point across.You can hear the difference with cable?So that test shouldn't be 50/50 for you by nature?It should be 100,it's like asking the difference between a violin and trumpet while blinding folding me,I can tell you every single time.

It's like not some of these people are even average,they are the very people who are promoting these cables and doing the claiming,yet they still can't tell.

Also it is easy to call something rigg when it doesn't go the way you like,so much easier if you just accept the result and chalk it up the fact that you might be able to hear better than those people.

F1nut

Keep thinking about it.