Back in the SDA!

rromeo923

Just got a pair of minty CRS+ from Mark (Doro). They have the original stands w/ Mye Sound spikes, Larrys rings, RDO 194, and new mid drivers. They sound awesome! I am enjoying them as much/more than my 1C's I unfortunately had to sell.

Couple of questions. Currently I think these sound better than my 1C's that had new caps and resistors and upgraded SDA Cable.
I believe this is partly due to room and positioning. So I was wondering if I should or should not do the following.
I am hesitant to redo crossovers because when I did the 1C's even though I could hear an improvement in clarity and detail I felt that they lost something hard to define (listenability??) Were the new caps (Clarity) too bright?? Myave Sonicaps this time??

To TL or not to TL?
New caps and resistors?
New inductors?
Dynamat? Prob doing this. How much of this should I buy and where from?
NoRez?

westmassguy

I would do almost all the above. The CRS+s are certainly worth it. Sonicaps and Clarity ESAs are about the same price, but I prefer the Sonicaps. The ESAs are fine caps, but a bit too in your face, while the Sonicaps are more musical to my ears. TL mod definitely recommended, and you can easily sell the 194s to offset a portion of the cost of the 198s. Mills MRA-12 or Mundorf Mox for the resistors, and replace the Polyswitches with a .5 ohm resistor, the same type as the others. The only Inductor I routinely recommend replacing is the 16mh Dimensional Inductor. An Erse Super-Q Laminated Steel Inductor will do quite nicely, for not a lot of money, and the resistance will be reduced by a factor of 5. The improvement in the quality and quantity of Deep Bass will be dramatic on the CRSs.
Dynamat the woofer and PR basket frames. I wouldn't recommend NoRez or Blackhole 5, there's really no place to put it without affecting the Bass.

markamerica

Congrats RRomeo, looks like you are pointed in the right direction. Good luck!

gimpod

rromeo923 wrote: »

Just got a pair of minty CRS+ from Mark (Doro). They have the original stands w/ Mye Sound spikes, Larrys rings, RDO 194, and new mid drivers. They sound awesome! I am enjoying them as much/more than my 1C's I unfortunately had to sell.

Congratulations and welcome back to SDA world (Now open your wallet!:razz:)

rromeo923 wrote: »

Couple of questions. Currently I think these sound better than my 1C's that had new caps and resistors and upgraded SDA Cable.
I believe this is partly due to room and positioning. So I was wondering if I should or should not do the following.
I am hesitant to redo crossovers because when I did the 1C's even though I could hear an improvement in clarity and detail I felt that they lost something hard to define (listenability??) Were the new caps (Clarity) too bright?? Myave Sonicaps this time??

First: I think the CRS+ my fit your room better. Plus the spikes may be making a big deference.
Second: I would never recommend any kind of Clairty Cap (No offense intended Trey) for use in SDA's, Like westmassguy and a few others I think Sonicaps Gen 1 are a better fit for the SDA'a

rromeo923 wrote: »

To TL or not to TL?
New caps and resistors?
New inductors?
Dynamat? Prob doing this. How much of this should I buy and where from?
NoRez?

TL ? Hell yes (like westmassguy said sell the RDO-194's to help off set the cost of the RDO-198's)

New caps and resistors? I would Sonic Craft's 14th Anniversary Sale! 20% off almost everything!, I would go with Mill's 12 watt resistors too.

New inductors? I don't know if so I would stay with an 16mh low DCR air core inductor, Here is a link to a short paper on inductor replacement by Matthew Polk and Stu Lumsdem Inductor Upgrades for SDA.pdf you should read before deciding.

Dynamat? Oh yes and it's called Dynamat Extreme and a Wedge Pack will be more than enough to get the job done.

NoRez? That's your call.

BTW: Here's a thread on an CRS+ upgrade that might help. My SDA CRS Upgrade Thread

Phasewolf

Let me add to all this good advice. One thing you need to think about is if you are happy you may want to leave it be. What are you going to do if you spend all the money and for whatever reason you don't like how it sounds? Not saying it will happen but something to think about.

By the way if you sell the Rdo-194 I need a pair of them still so please message me as I do want them.

VR3

Guys, just a reminder that everything in this hobby is personal preference.

For every guy you will find in the Sonicap/Mills camp you will find another in the Clarity Cap camp.

Happy listening

rromeo923

Gimpod,

I read the paper on inductors from Matt Polk and Stu Lumsdem. I did not understand most of it but I did get the idea that maybe changing the inductor may have some deleterious effect on the original voicing of the speakers.
Anyway, can someone chime in on there personal findings when they did change the inductors?

Trey,

The Crossover upgrade you did for my 1C's was awesome and I very much appreciate it. However I did feel that the speakers were too bright. Once again the placement and room was not as good as where I now have my CRS+ and as you say everyone has a personal preference on sound. However I have never heard an upgrade with the Sonicaps. Can anyone chime in who has heard both?

Phasewolf,

You may be right. Maybe I like the way they sound now and the $$$ spent may not produce a change that I like.
This really may be the truth. I am pretty damn excited about how they sound now. But....
If I do swap out the RDO 194's I will let you know.

Thanks for everyones advice!

westmassguy

Rick, if you read the Inductor upgrade document carefully, the specific Inductor they're referring to is the Dimensional Inductor. It's sole purpose is to provide a low resistance path to ground below 150 Hz for the Dimensional woofer(s) only. The upper frequencies handled by the woofer, i.e. the voicing, are unaffected by the change, nor is the Hi-Pass Section.

codyc1ark

This is worse than the porshe thread! Pics or it didn't happen!!! :razz::razz::razz:

gudnoyez

Congrats enjoy, I often wonder what my CRS+s will sound like once I upgrade them. What did mark get for them with the upgrades and stands if you don't mind me asking?

rromeo923

Westmass,

Well like I said I didnt understand most of the paper. Have you had direct listening experience with the inductor mod?

Cody,

Nothing to see here, move along...

gudnoyez,

I paid $425 total. I knew that these speakers were well taken care of. Plus the RDO's, Larry's Rings, and the Mye Sound spkes along with the original stands made this a deal.

westmassguy

rromeo923 wrote: »

Westmass,

Well like I said I didnt understand most of the paper. Have you had direct listening experience with the inductor mod?

Cody,

Nothing to see here, move along...

gudnoyez,

I paid $425 total. I knew that these speakers were well taken care of. Plus the RDO's, Larry's Rings, and the Mye Sound spkes along with the original stands made this a deal.

Every SDA I've done, from my own 2As, CRS+s, and those done for others, the change in deep bass is dramatic. The quality and quantity of low bass added by the dimensional woofer(s), combined with the stereo woofer(s), takes the speakers to another level in bass response.

leftwinger57

Rromeo, I had almost the same attitude about just doing mods and how far does one go.When I picked up my 87' 2Bs I thought they sounded incredible and thought doing all that was suggested was at bit extream.I was wrong on that issue after being put in place by the fact technology does change,they are 26/27 y/o speakers w/ all kinds of seasonal chnges they went through.Ok, I started w/ the easy cheap mods ,Dynaymatting made the biggest first hand difference by adding a bass punch clarity immeadiately heard.Then I did Black Hole-5 where I was a little put off and did not like the result.Next after waiting the tweeters and Larry's Rings where the real magic happened.X-overs were not done except to pull the polys and add the Mills 0.5 resistors.After rerolling and correctly placing back the polyfill the results were very satisfying.If your happy w/ what's done or not done leave them be it's your football. I got my Dynamatt Extreme at a car audio place for free ,they just did a trunk and had all kinds of partcial sheets and scraps just waithing to be thrown out.The BH-5 from a C/L add $18 for 2 sheets and scraps.I liquid nailed the inner cabinets for $3 and change and the Mills for $8 + shipping.Tweeters and rings about $162 for both and now I do smile every time I open these guys up.Cosmetically I bleached and stained the tops a dark walnut to rid the deep water stains.I bought them last May and finished about 2 weeks ago so I did do it piecemeal both do to financial constraints and the tweeters were not in stock at the time. Have fun these are a great type of speaker and are a special breed indeed.

nspindel

Congrats on the new speakers, Rick. Here's my take - first of all, I think you sound way too "stressed out" about all the mod stuff. Remember, this is a hobby! None of these decisions are life and death, this is supposed to be fun As you've indicated, you have speakers that you quite like in their current state. So if you're feeling as if you're overwhelmed with decisions to make, then just take a time out, hang out, and listen to music. Just enjoy them and let them serve their purpose - to entertain you.

As far as the mods themselves go, I'm a huge fan of every single one of them in my CRS+'s. I've done the TL mod, the inductors, the Sonicaps, the resistors, the dynamat, the works. And my CRS+'s sound incredible. Definitely not too bright, they are fantastic. But that's just me, and my opinion. And all the other advice you're getting here are just opinions. And as the saying goes - opinions are like a-holes. Everyone's got one, and they all stink.

The only thing that matters is whether or not you're enjoying your speakers, and whether or not you enjoy the change that any of these mods bring about.

But for what it's worth, very few of these changes are permanent. Installing the rings is permanent, but that's already done and you're happy with them. The TL mod is not. Buy a couple of cheap caps and the 198 tweeters. If you like the change, keep it. If not, pull the caps and sell the 198's and recoup most of your money.

You're happy with what you have now, so you have no reason to rush through any decisions. Take it slow and enjoy the ride.

I know you've seen this before, you posted in the thread, but here's my write up on my CRS+ makeover:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?137026-My-new-4.1TL-s-are-complete!

westmassguy

nspindle, I don't think he's stressing, he asked specific questions, and was given specific answers by most including you. Aside from the one snide response they're all good opinions. Whether Rick choses to enjoy them as they are, or consider upgrades, is his call.
He's got the 194s and rings which is a big improvement. The rest can be done or not done. I don't think anyone was pressuring him either way.

nspindel

Oh I don't think anyone is pressuring him. I just don't want him to pressure himself.

When I bought my CRS+s from Sal, they were already completely disassembled and were a pile of parts. already had all the Sonicaps and Tony's boards and the rings, the 198's, etc. That's what Sal sold me. So I wan't in a position to just enjoy them in the state they were in. The only changes I made other than what Sal had already begun were the inductors, and I ordered Dueland resistors instead of the Mills that Sal sold me. Plus I did the veneer job.

But Rick has speakers that are in great shape and enjoyable, so there's no need to rush to start modding anything if he is unsure about what he wants to do. He can relax and enjoy the music.

TennMan

nspindel wrote: »

... When I bought my CRS+s from Sal, they were already completely disassembled and were a pile of parts. already had all the Sonicaps and Tony's boards and the rings, the 198's, etc. That's what Sal sold me. So I wan't in a position to just enjoy them in the state they were in. The only changes I made other than what Sal had already begun were the inductors,...

Did you listen to your CRS any before you installed the new inductors or was everything done at the same time? If you added the inductors later, what difference to you feel the new inductors made in the sound?

BTW, which new inductors did you use.

Thanks

nspindel

No. My current speakers were not the first CRS+'s I've owned. My original pair used the stock inductors, these use a Solen for the 16mH and Jantzens for the smaller ones mounted on the board. Audio memory is not reliably, but my 4.1's undoubtedly sound better than my original pair. But I didn't do any mods at all to that pair other than swap out the SL2000's for RD0194's. And I also have a much better amp and pre-amp than I had back then. So it's completely apples to oranges.

I did, however, use the original inductor and then upgrade to an Erse Super Q back when I had my 2B's. There was a definite improvement in deep bass response when I did so, which was enough to convince me to proceed with inductor upgrades on the two pair of SDA's I've had since my 2B's. With my current 4.1TL's, I'd already done enough SDA mod trials to believe in every one of them, so when I put these together I just went all out right from the beginning.

drumminman

rromeo923 wrote: »

Just got a pair of minty CRS+ from Mark (Doro). They have the original stands w/ Mye Sound spikes, Larrys rings, RDO 194, and new mid drivers. They sound awesome! I am enjoying them as much/more than my 1C's I unfortunately had to sell.

Couple of questions. Currently I think these sound better than my 1C's that had new caps and resistors and upgraded SDA Cable.
I believe this is partly due to room and positioning. So I was wondering if I should or should not do the following.
I am hesitant to redo crossovers because when I did the 1C's even though I could hear an improvement in clarity and detail I felt that they lost something hard to define (listenability??) Were the new caps (Clarity) too bright?? Myave Sonicaps this time??

To TL or not to TL?
New caps and resistors?
New inductors?
Dynamat? Prob doing this. How much of this should I buy and where from?
NoRez?

I would follow Nspindel's thread as he posted a great step by step process. As to rebuilding the Xovers, I've only used Sonicaps/Mills, but I've been quite happy with them. Others report good results with Clarity Caps. If you're concerned about the speakers being too bright after installing new caps, etc., you should probably stay with Sonicaps as folks who have heard both report that they're on the warm side compared with Clarity.

If cost is no object I would do in order: Xovers and convert to the TL upgrade with new (RD-0198's) tweeters - you have to do all this at once as there's a slight change to the Xover vis a vis using the RD-0194's; Dynamat the drivers; inductors last.

I agree with WMG's point above re: the large SDA inductor. This has a very nice effect on bass clarity and response. However, if you go with the big Solen inductor, cabinet space may be an issue.

If you only do one mod I suggest new caps and resistors.

nspindel

One thing important to note is that the CRS+ (and 2B) are great models to do inductor upgrades on because the three inductors on the board have like-for-like replacements available from Jantzen. Perfect matches in inductance, DCR, and wire gauge. Some of the other SDA's require you to customize the inductor yourself by buying one that's a larger inductance than you need, and then unwind it yourself until the inductance is correct. To me this would not be a fun project. First of all, I'd be very nervous that once I untie the coil, it would just completely unravel. Second, in order to get a read on the inductance, you need a pretty high end meter. The cheapo multimeter from Rat Shack ain't gonna cut it for an inductor.

nspindel

drumminman wrote: »

I agree with WMG's point above re: the large SDA inductor. This has a very nice effect on bass clarity and response. However, if you go with the big Solen inductor, cabinet space may be an issue.

The tricky part is that the stock inductor is the mount for the stock crossover board. So if you're not using Tony's boards and want to remount the crossover on the original inductor, it will definitely start getting tight in there for the Solen. In my case, I used Larry's method of mounting Tony's boards to the inside top of the cabinet, so I wasn't concerned about mounting a board onto the original inductor. So I just used Darqueknight's wooden disc method of mounting the Solen.

nspindel

That said, I highly recommend using Tony's boards. The modern film caps are huge compared to the original parts, and mounting them on the original boards is always a challenge. Tony's boards make laying out the electronics a breeze.

TennMan

nspindel: Thanks for the information. I appreciate it.

westmassguy

drumminman wrote: »

I would follow Nspindel's thread as he posted a great step by step process. As to rebuilding the Xovers, I've only used Sonicaps/Mills, but I've been quite happy with them. Others report good results with Clarity Caps. If you're concerned about the speakers being too bright after installing new caps, etc., you should probably stay with Sonicaps as folks who have heard both report that they're on the warm side compared with Clarity.

If cost is no object I would do in order: Xovers and convert to the TL upgrade with new (RD-0198's) tweeters - you have to do all this at once as there's a slight change to the Xover vis a vis using the RD-0194's; Dynamat the drivers; inductors last.

I agree with WMG's point above re: the large SDA inductor. This has a very nice effect on bass clarity and response. However, if you go with the big Solen inductor, cabinet space may be an issue.

If you only do one mod I suggest new caps and resistors.

The big Solens also come with a big price.

nspindel

westmassguy wrote: »

The big Solens also come with a big price.

That is true. The Erse Super Q's are much more wallet friendly.

westmassguy

nspindel wrote: »

That is true. The Erse Super Q's are much more wallet friendly.

They're also the best laminated steel inductor made anywhere, that I can find. The 14 gauge is rated 600 watts before saturation, and the 16 gauge 500 watts. That's more than enough for even the SRSs.

drumminman

westmassguy wrote: »

The big Solens also come with a big price.

Yes they do; lots of copper in those.

rromeo923

Thanks everyone for your input and information. I definitely appreciate it.
For the record I am not stressed nor do I feel any pressure. In fact if you knew me you would laugh at the word Stress and my name being in the same sentence. However, like many of us who enjoy this type of hobby I may be considered obsessive. With that said it really is good advice for me to take a step back and enjoy the speakers as is. Will that last for long, I doubt it. I think I will at least start off w/dynamat. Cheap!

gimpod

gimpod wrote: »

Second: I would never recommend any kind of Clairty Cap (No offense intended Trey) for use in SDA's, Like westmassguy and a few others I think Sonicaps Gen 1 are a better fit for the SDA's

VR3 wrote: »

Guys, just a reminder that everything in this hobby is personal preference.

For every guy you will find in the Sonicap/Mills camp you will find another in the Clarity Cap camp.

Happy listening

Hey Trey I just knew you were going to jump all over this comment like a fat kid on a twinky. :biggrin::razz:

Seriously if you like a more laid back/mellow or musical sound then SonicCap/Mill's are your choise, but if you like a bright more clincale sound than ClairtyCap ESA/Mundorf Mox.
You really can't go wrong ether way as they both use quality part's and it really dose come down to personal taste.

rromeo923 wrote: »

Gimpod,

I read the paper on inductors from Matt Polk and Stu Lumsdem. I did not understand most of it but I did get the idea that maybe changing the inductor may have some deleterious effect on the original voicing of the speakers.
Anyway, can someone chime in on there personal findings when they did change the inductors?

Trey,

The Crossover upgrade you did for my 1C's was awesome and I very much appreciate it. However I did feel that the speakers were too bright. Once again the placement and room was not as good as where I now have my CRS+ and as you say everyone has a personal preference on sound. However I have never heard an upgrade with the Sonicaps. Can anyone chime in who has heard both?

Phasewolf,

You may be right. Maybe I like the way they sound now and the $$$ spent may not produce a change that I like.
This really may be the truth. I am pretty damn excited about how they sound now. But....
If I do swap out the RDO 194's I will let you know.

Thanks for everyones advice!

The inductor question, The one the paper refers to is the big one (not the ones mounted on the board) and what everybody around here incorrectly calls the SDA inductor. I prefer to call it the "Sub-bass inductor" after all that's it's purpose and that's what it's there for to provide a path from that sides (Right or left) SDA drivers negative terminal to that's side amps negative terminal (Right or left) so they would work as Sub-bass driver/s below around 150Hz (if you don't the SDA drivers would just sit there acting like badly tuned passive radiators.) while still acting as dimensional driver/s at higher frequencies while also increasing the speakers impedance because SDA's were right on the edge of what most amps could handle in those days impedance wise. To quote the man himself "If your amp doesn't mind, you shouldn't either."-Matthew Polk.

A word on the board level inductors, They need to be keep the same in Gauge, mH's and DCR, you can talk to trey (Vr3) at vr3modes.com if your interested.

nspindel wrote: »

That said, I highly recommend using Tony's boards. The modern film caps are huge compared to the original parts, and mounting them on the original boards is always a challenge. Tony's boards make laying out the electronics a breeze.

Thank you for the plug.

nspindel wrote: »

That is true. The Erse Super Q's are much more wallet friendly.

The only thing about using a laminated core in the "Full Complement Sub-Bass Drive" circuit just make sure it will handle at least 5 amps without saturation. Personly I'd pay the coin and stick with an air core they don't saturate.

In the end my friend enjoy them for at least 6 months then start thinking about upgrades if any.

westmassguy

gimpod wrote: »

The only thing about using a laminated core in the "Full Complement Sub-Bass Drive" circuit just make sure it will handle at least 5 amps without saturation. Personly I'd pay the coin and stick with an air core they don't saturate.

In the end my friend enjoy them for at least 6 months then start thinking about upgrades if any.

I refer to them as the dimensional inductors, but I like yours too. I researched the Erse inductors thoroughly before using them myself, or recommending them to my customers. They're rated up to 20 amps, 500 watts for the 16 gauge and 600 watts for the 14 gauge, before saturation.

nspindel

I never had an issue with the Erse but I never pushed them all that hard. I'm just a dumb liberal arts major. Ray says use the Solen, I use the Solen!