Pio SC-05 MCACC Speaker Channel Level

Hermitism

Forgive me if this has been covered before, I searched and couldn't find anything. Found someone with the same question on another board, so I thought it was worth asking.

When I had a Denon AVR hooked up for a short time to these speakers, I noticed my speakers had more bass then they do with this SC-05 and the SC-05 has a flatter sound. I thought maybe it had to do with Audyssey vs. MCACC and the way each calibrated my system. I also noticed that when I turned off/disabled the MCACC on the Pio that my speakers were MUCH louder. I was looking through my settings and noticed the way MCACC had calibrated my "Fine Channel Level". And here lies my question. MCACC has set ALL my speakers in the negative category. I know it's trying to balance out the levels, but shouldn't at least one be set at zero, for the rest to be in the negative numbers? Why does MCACC prefer to set them to quieter levels? Doesn't that make the amp work hard because I have to turn the volume up higher?

L: -7.5dB
C: -5.5
R: -6.5
SR: -8.5
SL: -6.5
SW: -2

zane77

These values are set in the pre-amp section so the amp is not working any harder to achieve,the same sound pressure levels

tonyb

Those all look pretty low to me. All depends too on where you had your mic when calibrating and if any other noise was present in the room. I would manually adjust at close to the 0 mark give or take a couple notches on either side of the scale. Use your ears to balance it out from your listening position.

Hermitism

I was supposed to use a mic??? I'm just kidding. I had the mic sitting in the center of the room, on the head rest of my recliner. I made sure to turn off the air conditioner to make sure it didn't pick up the air blowing out of the vent. I've ran the calibration a few times and get the same results (within .5db).

nguyendot

Yeah mine does the exact same thing. I usually raise them all so that the center is 0.0db. The difference should be the same -unless someone else knows otherwise? I also pump the subwoofer way up as it has zero output (-8.0!) after calibration.

jon s

when calibrating, you should mount the microphone on a tripod... The worst thing to do is to put it on top the seat itself as it affects the sound calibration...

The sound levels may end up in negative numbers depending on how the system adjusts the EQ... If the EQ has a boost above 0 dB somewhere, the sound levels will drop to compensate...

mantis

I first off believe your mic is not positioned correctly. I also never look at those numbers and judge them on a 0 level. If you take the time to learn about what a calibration does , then you might understand those numbers more.
Also if you want a evaluation , I think your room is a bit unbalanced in placement according to those numbers. You could have some nasty reverb and slab echo's going on that might need correcting. No calibration system really fixes room issues. To me it just tries to band aid them and sometimes cuts performance to much. Room treatments and correct placement are a much better solution to your issues I see.I'm also willing to bet the room is on the smaller size.

When you listen to a system before calibration, everything is running wide open. You probably will have more bass, more mids, more everything possibly. But what you fail to realize is the beauty of balance. Stop worrying about the amount or the numbers, worry about how the system performs as a whole.
MCACC is better then Audyssey IMO. I also strongly believe Pioneer Elite SC receivers are superior to all Denon models of the same class, year etc.

I'm a professional calibrator and have heard all the feedback from people who have been watching and listening to a system not professionally calibrated. At first they just about HATE the calibration until the watch a few movies and realize they now can hear so much more information due to the fact the sub isn't blowing the room out while the surround channel speakers kick you in the back of the head and in the mean time the center channel is screaming at you. With all that havoc going on in ones movie room, the TV or projector is burning holes in your eye sockets with all the brightness and color.

I have had clients call me after a few days and thanking me for giving them a system that is now a true experience instead of an **** kicking.

Conradicles

I agree the MCACC is superb.

Get your speakers set-up correctly 1st. Treat the room if you can, but if you can't now then put it on the "to do list".

Run the mic on a tripod exactly in the sweet spot, and do not touch the adjustments at all for a few weeks. Enjoy.

Hermitism

Thank you all for the input! Yep, it's in a small room. Pictures will help explain. The family room isn't an option. It has hardwood floors and solid windows on three walls with no window treatments to block the view. So there is no way to darken the room. There is a TV in there, but no home theater.

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The living room is very formal, so that's a no-go. So I put this system in a spare bedroom as sort of a one person getaway. It's 11.5 feet wide by 14.5 feet deep. The speakers are set up symmetrically. The fronts are 9.5 feet apart and toed in. The TV is centered between the two. My recliner is 8 to 9 feet back from the TV and the surrounds sit to the left and right of the recliner. The seat is about one foot off center to the right, so not to hit the corner bed post behind it when recycling back. There is a small bed, chest of drawers, short curio cabinet, and a desk in there that has to stay.

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From the angle of the picture, it looks like furniture is blocking the front speakers, but from where I sit, they are unobstructed. I know it's not ideal, but it's what I have to work with. I have a tripod that I will put in place of the seat and recalibrate. The mic has a slot in the bottom of it, but it is not threaded so it can't be screwed down to the tripod, but just sat on top of. I'll recalibrate later today, and see if it makes a difference and let you all know.

tonyb

Just a suggestion, pull those front speakers another 6 inches away from the back wall. Take that right front and in addition to moving it forward 6 inches, try and get another 6 inches away from the sidewall. It also looks like it isn't toed in as much as the left.

mantis

Another suggestion is to measure the distance from your TV to your face when sitting down. Space the front speakers 3/4 of that distance and toe in behind your head so you can see the inside sides of the speaker from the chair but not when your behind the chair.
The Center channel looks to be angled up to high. Bring it down so the Tweeter is beaming directly at ear height not above or below.
If at all possible get those surrounds off the stands and hang them on the wall at 72 inches to the tweeter. This will open up the surround field and give you a more believable presentation.
Sub position is good , just pull it away from the wall a few inches and angle it toward the center of the room . Bass is going to be tuff to control in that room but you selected a pretty good position for a small room. After these tweaks re run MCACC with the mic directly in the center of the listening position , not the center of the room. So the mic should be exactly where your head is when watching movies. You can stack pillows on the chair or books with some material underneath to cancel any reflections. This will yield more accurate results.

The SC-05 is a bit powerful for that room but it's always better to have more then not enough.

Polkie2009

You've got a beautiful home there Hermitism, too bad you can't use that gorgeous den for your system, but like most of us, we try to make to best out of what we can. The only thing I can add to what the other fellows have already advised, is look at getting a bass trap or 2 , in a small room they can make a real difference.:cheesygrin:

Hermitism

Wow, this is great and thanks for the compliment. The house is a one level ranch, so there is no basement for a home theater.

I'll get out the protractor and micrometer later today and start moving things! For now I can raise the surround stands by another foot. I had the surrounds just slightly above ear level. The center IS pointing too high. I originally had it on the second shelf because my TV was mounted a little lower and the center wouldn't fit below the TV. But I hated having the center sound that far from the TV. If I have the center pointed straight out, it points below my ears and when I turned it upside down to tilt it up, it's too high, so I'll shim it with something.

I'm probably going to have to cheat on the front speakers. I think if I space them 3/4 the distance of the TV to my face, I'm afraid it's going to put that left speaker halfway between the left wall and the TV. I don't think I'll have room for the sub on either side of the left channel, but I'll check. I actually have two subs, but only use one. I've been using one for a week and then switching to the other, trying to figure out which one I prefer. The bigger one works better for movies, but the smaller one works better for music. I should probably get a splitter and another cable and connect both and just turn on which ever I want. Does splitting the sub signal between two subs degrade the signal?

You know what, I just thought of something. I originally had the smaller sub sitting on top of the bigger, because I had nowhere to put it. Then I ended up pushing the front speakers back closer to the rear wall so I would have room to sit the second sub in front on the left channel between the desk and left speaker, which is where it is now. (you just can't see it in the photo) The front speakers have rear firing ports and I only had the Denon AVR for a couple of days and I think that is when I had the fronts pulled out from the rear wall. Would that explain why I heard more bass with the Denon?

Polkie2009

Was curious,after running the MCACC, in your AVR ,are all your speaker settings still set to small and all speaker crossover settings set to 80hz. I know after running my Yamaha's avr with YPAO , I have to do this in my avr settings. Hate to sound redundant ,but just want to at least ask. If your avr only has one sub out, you should have no problem running a y connector to run two sub cables. Are you stacking both subs in the same spot? Probably need both subs on when doing MCACC.

Hermitism

My crossover is currently set to 80, but I had it at 100 for awhile, trying to get my bass the way I like it. This AVR has one crossover setting for all the speakers, I can't change each speaker individually, unless I missed that option somewhere. After the calibration, it set all my speakers to "large". I reset the center and surrounds to small, per the speaker instruction manuals. The two front speakers weren't putting out enough bass for music, so I wanted to add the sub during music playing. I had two choices and tried both... setting the fronts to small or leaving the fronts set to large and changing my sub setting from "on" to "plus". I like the "plus" option. I've never had both subs on at the same time, I don't have a Y-splitter or a second sub cable. I have spare cables, but none meaty enough to use with a sub. When I changed subs, I just left the MCACC setting as is and didn't recalibrate when switching subs.

Here is the deal with the subs and why I can't make up my mind on which one to use. Forgive my lack of proper terms in describing this, I'll do my best to make this coherent. The PSW125 I bought new a few years ago. It puts out a lot of vibration, but not a lot of sound. It also gives me a nice headache, even at low volume. And I can't move it around the room, there just really isn't anywhere else to put it. I don't like it with music, but it's nice for movies. The PSW303 came with the package deal I got on CL that included all the other speakers. I didn't need a second sub, but I just considered it a bonus. I like that one better with music. It puts out a completely different sound, but it also puts out a little "noise" with the bass. Not distortion, just faint sounds along with the thumps. That's the best way to describe it. That's why I liked having it pointed perpendicular to the front of the TV, rather than pointed at me. I even had it turned around towards the wall for awhile.

Hermitism

I have to say, it's really nice being able to post photos in this forum without having to use photobucket. It's really convenient. Nice forum, nice people, smart brains... strong personalities. How exactly does this forum work, I know you can get to it through Polk's website, and the web address is polkaudio, so is the moderator an employee of Polk? I was just curious because all brands are discussed in here, not just Polk.

vmaxer

I may have to try a few of these suggestions....

Polkie2009

That PSW303 is only an 8" sub, the poor thang is probably struggling to keep up with the music and farting along the way. If you were running all__ of the speakers on small is would really__ be gasping. The PSW 125 is a 12" sub, and like you say, it can provide substantial bass for a small room but not a lot of volume?Do you have the crossover on the sub itself turned to max? Also in the AVR settings there should be a subwoofer level setting and in a different part of your menu an LFE setting. On my AVR , I usually need to change these just a bit every so often depending on whether I'm watching a movie, concert, or cd. I've found when playing music, the sub just needs to be turned down a bit in the setting. What position do you have your volume knob on the PSW 125 at, 10 o' clock or so?

Hermitism

I keep both volume controls on each sub at the 10 to 10:30 position. I'm the same way, I tend to want a little more for movies, little less for music. The AVR has a LFE setting that I can turn down when listening to music. I also thought that the sub was set a bit low during the calibration and turned it up a bit in the "fine channel level" section.

I'm in the process of moving everything around right now. I've read so much in these forums, and remember someone suggesting using a rubber door stop to shim the center channel. I can't remember if that was a recent post or one from a couple years ago. I don't have a rubber door stop, so I'm looking for something to shim the center. Holy crap, I forgot how heavy those front speakers are. I think my intestines are hanging down to me knees right now.

Why does Polk put the binding posts so high on these front speakers?

Polkie2009

Sometimes with calibration, it changes some speakers to large and if these happen to be your mains, that's less bass going to the sub. Really, it's better to just set all speaks to small and let the sub do the heavy lifting. If the sub is too boomy, lower the settings in the AVR. Another thing that does wonders is buying a standalone sub eq unit. I ended up with a DSPeaker 8033 S unit I bought from a trusted fellow polkie and it smoothed out the bass incredibly.

Hermitism

"Measure the distance from your TV to your face when sitting down. Space the front speakers 3/4 of that distance"

My face is exactly 9 feet from the TV screen. So I took the cotangent of the sphere, divided by Pi, and applied postulate 2-3 and came up with 6.75 feet. That put my left speaker right in the middle of that empty space and I had nowhere to put the sub. So this is about as good as I think I can get it. I brought the speakers out from the wall, and closer together. The desk is keeping me front bringing it out any further. And if I bring the speakers any closer together the sub will look crunched in and that will mess with my feng shui. The speakers are now 8 feet apart, tweeter to tweeter. That's 1.5 feet closer together. The tweeters on the surrounds are sitting 52" off the floor, about a foot higher. The front speakers are toed in to where I can see the inside sides of the front speakers from the chair but the sides disappear two feet behind my head.

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DSkip! Greetings Obi-Wan. Pictures are coming.

Hermitism

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The long mahogany mask I bought on eBay, I'll check and see if I can find the seller. It was from Africa, but the seller was an import/export company in Canada. All the other masks I bought in Nashville, Indiana. It's a small town of nothing but shops. The long light colored wooden mask on a black stand, didn't actually come with a stand. When my grandmother died, after the funeral, all the flowers were delivered to my parents home. One arrangement was on a three foot tall stand. I cut the legs shorter, drilled three holes in a wooden coaster, stuck some glue in the holes and mounted the stand on it and painted it black. The yawning mask is on a stand that had a shell mounted on it, I took the shell off and drill two holes in the bottom of the mask to mount on the stand.

Here is where the mahogany mask came from, got it in 2004, so I don't know if they still have them. http://stores.ebay.com/masksetc

tonyb

Hermitism wrote: »

I have to say, it's really nice being able to post photos in this forum without having to use photobucket. It's really convenient. Nice forum, nice people, smart brains... strong personalities. How exactly does this forum work, I know you can get to it through Polk's website, and the web address is polkaudio, so is the moderator an employee of Polk? I was just curious because all brands are discussed in here, not just Polk.

How does it work ? Just like your doing my friend. Yes, Polk moderates the forum and gives us plenty of leeway to talk shop and include other brands. You will even find members here who no longer own a polk speaker still hanging around in here. A lot of people worked hard on this forum to keep it on the up and up, and a good source of knowledge.

BTW- dig that big room, nice home you have there. Stick around, read up on some threads, get to know a few knuckleheads, we only bite on every other Monday. Cheers

EndersShadow

Hermitism wrote: »

"Measure the distance from your TV to your face when sitting down. Space the front speakers 3/4 of that distance"

My face is exactly 9 feet from the TV screen. So I took the cotangent of the sphere, divided by Pi, and applied postulate 2-3 and came up with 6.75 feet. That put my left speaker right in the middle of that empty space and I had nowhere to put the sub. So this is about as good as I think I can get it. I brought the speakers out from the wall, and closer together. The desk is keeping me front bringing it out any further. And if I bring the speakers any closer together the sub will look crunched in and that will mess with my feng shui. The speakers are now 8 feet apart, tweeter to tweeter. That's 1.5 feet closer together. The tweeters on the surrounds are sitting 52" off the floor, about a foot higher. The front speakers are toed in to where I can see the inside sides of the front speakers from the chair but the sides disappear two feet behind my head.

So here is the question....... How does it sound?

mantis

Hermitism wrote: »

"Measure the distance from your TV to your face when sitting down. Space the front speakers 3/4 of that distance"

My face is exactly 9 feet from the TV screen. So I took the cotangent of the sphere, divided by Pi, and applied postulate 2-3 and came up with 6.75 feet. That put my left speaker right in the middle of that empty space and I had nowhere to put the sub. So this is about as good as I think I can get it. I brought the speakers out from the wall, and closer together. The desk is keeping me front bringing it out any further. And if I bring the speakers any closer together the sub will look crunched in and that will mess with my feng shui. The speakers are now 8 feet apart, tweeter to tweeter. That's 1.5 feet closer together. The tweeters on the surrounds are sitting 52" off the floor, about a foot higher. The front speakers are toed in to where I can see the inside sides of the front speakers from the chair but the sides disappear two feet behind my head.

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DSkip! Greetings Obi-Wan. Pictures are coming.

Small changes over a system yields great results in the end. Great job man but I'd still prefer IF you could move the front just a tad closer together. If need be, the sub can live on the outside of the main channels, I prefer it between but will still work very well on the outside. I have done this setup thousands of times with excellent results.

mantis

Hermitism wrote: »

I keep both volume controls on each sub at the 10 to 10:30 position. I'm the same way, I tend to want a little more for movies, little less for music. The AVR has a LFE setting that I can turn down when listening to music. I also thought that the sub was set a bit low during the calibration and turned it up a bit in the "fine channel level" section.

I'm in the process of moving everything around right now. I've read so much in these forums, and remember someone suggesting using a rubber door stop to shim the center channel. I can't remember if that was a recent post or one from a couple years ago. I don't have a rubber door stop, so I'm looking for something to shim the center. Holy crap, I forgot how heavy those front speakers are. I think my intestines are hanging down to me knees right now.

Why does Polk put the binding posts so high on these front speakers?

If you properly calibrate your system, changing sub output levels should never be a factor. A properly balanced system will blend in the subs. They should never call attention to themselves. As I mentioned before, most people are so use to having their system in correctly calibrated that when they first hear a properly calibrated system, it doesn't sound quite right. Then after awhile they hear the difference in clarity which is when the magic happens.

Polkie2009

+1, I sometimes find I have to go into the subwoofer volume setting on the avr to reduce it a db or two to smooth out the bass on some movies.

Hermitism

DSkip wrote: »

Agreed. Even after a change in my rig, I sometimes have to give it a good amount of listening to wrap my head around the changes. It's hard to pick up on the positives sometimes because we have a tendency to focus on the negatives. More listening time usually lets you realize the gains that don't initially slap you in the face.

You know, that might be part of my problem. For years, I was used to listening to Realistic speakers with super tweeters on top and Pioneer speakers with 12" woofers in the same room. I'm used to a lot of treble and bass, but not much in between. These speakers have a lot of treble, but more midrange and less bass then I'm used to. To me that makes it sound more flat.

I just got it calibrated. Here is a picture of how it's set up. The tape measure on the floor shows the ideal speaker placement for the fronts. I highlighted the ends in red. If I put them there, the sub will have to go in the left corner and it will be touching the left wall and touching the speaker, I might have an inch to spare.

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The top sub in the picture isn't hook up. I haven't had a chance to listen to music yet, but watched a TV program. Not a great test, I know, but immediately noticed the center (peoples voices) seemed unnaturally bright. I saved the previous MCACC setting to be able to compare to the new. I'll show the EQ setting... the first pic is the old setting, the second the new one. For some reason I lost a lot of bass in the center channel. Originally I had calibrated it with the center channel on the second (lower) shelf. When I had raised it to the top shelf a few weeks ago, I did recalibrate.

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The second thing I noticed was the levels

Old settings
L: -7.5dB
C: -5.5
R: -6.5
SR: -8.5
SL: -6.5
SW: -2

New settings
L: -6
C: -5.5
R: -5
SR: -8
SL: -6
SW: +3.5

The original setting was calibrated using the smaller sub. Today I used the bigger sub that I claim has less sound, more vibration. Now I know it's aimed at me now and wasn't before, but looking at the two setting doesn't that show that I'm not crazy. It looks like the bigger sub is less powerful. I had the volume controls on both set at the 10 or 10:30 position. Actually had it pointing at the "V" in the word volume.

Hermitism

I know your favorite piece of equipment on my shelves has to be the VCR! Man, I gotta have a clock in front of me when I'm watching TV. I don't want to miss any reruns of Baywatch. I like it when the ladies run on the beach. It makes me feel kinda "funny"!

Hermitism

Music sounds better. If I close my eyes, the bass sounds like it's coming from the front speakers. But I can tell a difference if I turn the sub off. It's not over powering and didn't give me a headache as that bigger sub seems to do. It's just a small difference with it on and off. Is that what you call blending?

When I first got the PSW125 it was overpowering in that room. I never had it turned above one third volume and my old receiver would be on 4/10 for movies, so I never did anything to damage that sub. The amp went out in it a couple months out of warranty. The fuse would blow as soon as I turned it on. Had to order a new amp. Received a whole new rear panel. It wasn't the same as the old one. Polk said they were using different amps. It's never sounded the same to me. I even called to make sure they didn't send me the wrong panel, because the new one wouldn't fit, I had to shave just a hair of the edges to get it to slip into the opening and the old one had a big meaty cord and the new one was very thin. The screw holes were even in different places and I had to drill new holes. If it's the correct amp, it sure isn't like the old one in my opinion. When it happened I Googled the problem and I found about ten other people complaining that the fuses would blow immediately when turning on the PSW125. I don't know if there was just a small batch of bad amps or it was just bad luck.

Haven't watched a movie with it yet.

Nightfall

I don't have any first hand experience with their subs. That said, Polk is not known for their subs and I have read a lot of stories about people having issues with them. YMMV.