Ford escape rough idle

Inspector 24

bobsauto49 wrote: »

I should have been more specific! I deal with a heavy GM crowd,and when the Fords come in,you're correct! Mostly vaccum leaks(pcv,or dpfe hoses)

Ah Ha! Though you might say that! The GM's and their 60psi fuel systems...I've diagnosed a couple where they had 40ish psi...well that's enough right? HA! Fool me once, you got me, fool me twice...been long enough I forgot, but never fool me three times! Speaking of GM, replaced any fuel injector assemblies on the vortech heads? Fun fuel trim/rich condition the first time I did one!

bobsauto49 wrote: »

Chances are,if a O2 sensor is reading "lean",or "rich",its doing its job,and something else is causing it! JMHO!

Agreed. So long as the cross counts are there and you can force it one way other the other, it's likely fine. For the sake of non-technicians, that requires the right tools and knowledge to diagnose.

Not sure why they fail, but pretty sure even I can tell if it has failed, maybe just me?:eek:
Either they work or they don't?
Evidently, there is a VAST grey area as to why they don't?:eek:

FWIW When it comes to dealing with customers I'm always gray to begin with, IE I never tell them it IS one thing or another based on a code or someone else's diagnostics alone. Once I've done the diagnostics I and I'm sure I can fix the problem without a comeback I'm perfectly black and white.

Otherwise the only gray area is one where proper diagnostics have not been performed. Or in the case of the DIY, not enough parts have been thrown at it. No offense to the OP, I've been there, done that. Haven't always had the resources of a full shop to repair stuff. Oh the things I've fixed with duct tape and paperclips and JB Weld in the middle of nowhere....

Oh my, this conversation has gone so far past the original post, it needs another thread.

Systems

Inspector 24 wrote: »

Ah Ha! Though you might say that! The GM's and their 60psi fuel systems...I've diagnosed a couple where they had 40ish psi...well that's enough right? HA! Fool me once, you got me, fool me twice...been long enough I forgot, but never fool me three times! Speaking of GM, replaced any fuel injector assemblies on the vortech heads? Fun fuel trim/rich condition the first time I did one!



Agreed. So long as the cross counts are there and you can force it one way other the other, it's likely fine. For the sake of non-technicians, that requires the right tools and knowledge to diagnose.



FWIW When it comes to dealing with customers I'm always gray to begin with, IE I never tell them it IS one thing or another based on a code or someone else's diagnostics alone. Once I've done the diagnostics I and I'm sure I can fix the problem without a comeback I'm perfectly black and white.

Otherwise the only gray area is one where proper diagnostics have not been performed. Or in the case of the DIY, not enough parts have been thrown at it. No offense to the OP, I've been there, done that. Haven't always had the resources of a full shop to repair stuff. Oh the things I've fixed with duct tape and paperclips and JB Weld in the middle of nowhere....

Oh my, this conversation has gone so far past the original post, it needs another thread.

Me :cheesygrin::

Either you can tell if the sensor is bad or not

you should be able to trouble shoot to know the difference.

You:

I've been there, done that. Haven't always had the resources of a full shop to repair stuff.

Bob does it for a living, maybe get ahold of him?

Your post makes sense to me.
More more so than not being able to diagnose a sensor.
Nice post Inspector24!:biggrin:!

Inspector 24

pepster wrote: »

Bob does it for a living, maybe get ahold of him?

As do I. Probably why he and I are on the same page.

Systems

Inspector 24 wrote: »

As do I. Probably why he and I are on the same page.

Maybe, but I guess I expected a little more.
I do it for a living also, only Audio analog/digital/AC power equipment, and can assure I can measure/trouble shoot and tell the difference between the three!!!!!
12V OR 120V!

Seems there was some confusion earlier?
O2 tied to a Fuel Pump?
Really?
You would think if you did it for a living you could tell the difference?

Inspector 24

pepster wrote: »

Maybe, but I guess I expected a little more.
I do it for a living also, only Audio analog/digital/AC power equipment, and can assure I can measure/trouble shoot and tell the difference between the three!!!!!
12V OR 120V!

Automotive diagnostics goes beyond circuit testing, you have to understand the logic the ECU is programmed with and under what conditions a CEL will set.

Seems there was some confusion earlier?
O2 tied to a Fuel Pump?
Really?

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're confused about how a faulty fuel pump could set a code for an oxygen sensor? If that is correct allow me to explain. Low fuel pressure from a faulty pump causes a lean condition whereby not enough fuel is being injected into the engine to match the measured volume of air entering the engine. This may set as a variety of lean codes depending on the severity of the problem and the manufacturer. This is where the gray area comes in, it is gray to the lay person because a code set by an oxygen sensor is not in fact an oxygen sensor at all. This is only one of many scenarios under which the circuit being effected is not directly related to the source of the problem.

You would think if you did it for a living you could tell the difference?

I can. The fact that you cannot is revealing your lack of automotive diagnostics knowledge.

Systems

Here is the only problem I have with your answere Inspector.

Example A:

Low fuel pressure from a faulty pump causes a lean condition whereby not enough fuel is being injected into the engine to match the measured volume of air entering the engine. This may set as a variety of lean codes depending on the severity of the problem and the manufacturer

Not proven by ANY means............BS IMHO.
I can tell you this..........You should be able to determine which it is, one way or the other.
Simple as that.
"May" or "Rumour Has It" does not really cut it.

Secondly,

If you read the thread (IE: READ IT!) you would know what I am talking about instead of asking questions to YOURSELF making sure you understand what is going on in this thread.........COMPRENDE?
READ............READ THE THREAD!
Instead of asking yourself the questions, and wanting me to verify.
Ask yourself if you are in the right profession.
So far in this entire thread I have not seen a single post about a OS going bad.
Seems all the "Professionals" point to other higher priced items that can lead to such failers.
Let me say this.......if you think a OS can go out as a result of a FP.......you got problems my friend.

This is my last post, I would not allow you to change my oil, the fact that you cannot determine a specific problem, and refer to "this could cause this to go out" or " this is related to this" would be my downfall dealing with you.

Sure its possible,but highly unlikely due to the fact that it digital controlled vehicles last time I checked, were controlled by Voltage/amperage.

I'm sure I am wrong there also, and there is no way to measure such things, and if you do, it is not always accurate, and may be your fuel pump cause such readings.

You two are on my BOZO LIST.
And you are the only two on it!
Therefore I cannot even see your posts from this point on.
Let alone tell or measure, if you were the "problem"

Inspector 24

Uh Oh...The caps lock came out...

Instead of asking yourself the questions, and wanting me to verify.

Simply trying to confirm we are talking about the same thing...however...I think we found the root of the issue...seems you think we indicated an 02 sensor can fail due to a bad fuel pump....

Let me say this.......if you think a OS can go out as a result of a FP

Nope, never indicated that anywhere. Nor did Bob. Only that a code set by a lean condition which the oxygen sensor monitors can be an indication of a bad fuel pump...among several other things.

You two are on my BOZO LIST.

You're on my BOZO list as well, but I won't ignore you, rather I'll give you the respect of being heard.

OP, sorry...all this crap should be cleaned out....

Systems

Not sure how I double posted

Systems

Low fuel pressure from a faulty pump causes a lean condition whereby not enough fuel is being injected into the engine to match the measured volume of air entering the engine.

So does a vacuum leak, fuel leak, vapor lock, electrical problems, bad injector, stopped up fuel rail, stopped up fuel filter, stopped up air filter, leak between air filter and intake, non compliant gas tank vacuum.........ect......ect.........

The fact that there seems to be a problem diagnosing such problems, yet a plethora of advice, the most expensive being the standard "Fuel Pump" advice, leaves me wanting.

Inspector 24

All things I said, none of which said it was only the fuel pump, only that it was one of many possibilities:

can be an indication of a bad fuel pump...among several other things.

This is only one of many scenarios under which the circuit being effected is not directly related to the source of the problem.

IE I never tell them it IS one thing or another based on a code or someone else's diagnostics alone. Once I've done the diagnostics I and I'm sure I can fix the problem without a comeback I'm perfectly black and white.

Fuel pump is a possibility. Low fuel pressure/volume creates a lean condition as fast as a vacuum leak/malfunctioning air flow sensor.

So does a vacuum leak, fuel leak, vapor lock, bad injector, stopped up fuel rail, stopped up fuel filter, non compliant gas tank vacuum.........ect......ect.........

Vapor lock is rarely a problem with high pressure fuel injection. The higher pressure fuel systems prevent fuel from vaporizing in the lines as old low pressure fuel systems would.

The fact that there seems to be a problem diagnosing such problems, yet a plethora of advice, the most expensive being the standard "Fuel Pump" advice, leaves me wanting.

No problem at all. It requires the proper diagnostic steps to find the problem. Not sure what you want. I know the only reason I'm here at this point is because

And I like finding meme's that make me laugh.
And I drank too much Pibb Xtreme and the caffeine hasn't worn off.....

Systems

All things I said, none of which said it was only the fuel pump, only that it was one of many possibilities:

Cool man, at least I learned something from ya, I need to leave my posts "Open Ended" at all times.:cheesygrin:

Not a bad idea come to think of it!

I'm just kidding.....

Hope you enjoy the rest of the week man, the days are getting fewer and fewer.

And fewer appreciated!

tonyb

Inspector 24 wrote: »

Automotive diagnostics goes beyond circuit testing, you have to understand the logic the ECU is programmed with and under what conditions a CEL will set.

That says it all in a nutshell. Good to see some mechanics still use basic logic sprinkled with some good old fashioned know how. These mechanics, or should I say kids, in todays chain car repair stores don't know their arse from a hole in the ground. They look at a code and just replace whatever it says. These handheld diagnostic tools are good to narrow down the search, but should not be the sole extent of your knowledge base.

drumminman

bigaudiofanatic wrote: »

So I replaced 3 spark plugs today, I started it up and it ran just fine RPM's stayed around 1K. Than I decided to take it around the block. Randomly it would run right but it was running rough most of it. I did get a flashing check engine light and than it became solid. I will be replacing the other 3 tomorrow. I confirmed that the COP's that I pulled were ok, one had been replaced. I can only hope that it is the spark plugs because it was running fine when it was dropped off.

Inspector, now that you mention it there has been a hiss however I thought it was part of the A/C. I will check it out tomorrow more.

I think your issue has something to do with cleaning the engine. With newer engines cleaning is likely to cause more problems than it solves due to all the electronics used.

Re: replacing the plugs, I have a 2005 Escape with the V6 and I've replaced all the plugs. The front bank is a piece of cake, the rear not so much. You have to remove the intake manifold to get to them. It's no worse than rebuilding a Xover, but go slow and be patient.

The best advice I can give is get a roll of painter's tape (removes easily when you're finished), and label both ends of every connection you have to unhook, and there are a lot of them! That way everything gets reconnected properly and you don't have to spend hours working out the "new" problems you have due to missed or incorrectly connected hoses, electrical sensors, etc.

Good luck!

jeremymarcinko

I'll start by saying I am an idiot and nobody should ever listen to me(disclaimer). We can speculate one of a dozen parts which can cause a rough idol. But if I am to assume the problem began after washing the engine then I would think there is no failing parts, something is either wet or dirty, start there. If you were banging around the engine with rag or whatever you could of knocked a hosed loose or off, check for that. You can check for a discrete vacuum leak with a can of starting fluid(disclaimer) spray it near suspect vacuum hoses while the engine is running and listen for the idol to increase, when it does there's the leak. Another way is a dark garage some kind of smoke and a blacklight. I've used sticks of incense for this, move the incense around the vacuum hoses with the blacklight on makes it easier to see the smoke being sucked up by the vacuum leak. Open the air box look to see if the filter is wet, dirty, if so change it. You've already looked at the spark plugs so I thinking we are good there, but would double check all of the coil connections and the clean the maf sensor. Then start thinking faulty parts. And my two cents, on the low fuel pressure causing o2 failure, any lean condition creates excessive exhaust temperature which can cause damage to the o2 sensor. (disclaimer) and good luck

sucks2beme

Cleaning engines is indeed "risky Business" on newer models.
Bottom line, read codes. Then look around. Vacuum gauge, fuel pressure gauge,
code reader, all good things to have and use. All this back and forth is pretty useless.
The car owner has to go through all the options, and rarely has the tools or
know how. Hoses, wet ignition, and sensors are the most likely causes here.
But of course, it could of been running rough before, and we are all chasing ghosts.
The car could just have a classic case of "Ford EGR" trouble. But either way, it's pretty
tough to "internet" troubleshoot.

bruss

I had a bad vacuum leak on my 2002 escape (4 cyl). causing the exact same symptoms. cut in some new hosing and voila.

I replaced all of the plugs wires and the other thingies just cause im at 140K on that one. The thing will not die. My biggest problem is excessive road noise, but since its just a gas saver im fine with it.

tonyb

Always start with the most obvious, simple solutions and work from there. Vacuum leaks can cause many symptoms you'd think are something else. Just talking from many years of experience here.

Hope you get it worked out anyway. I know this trial and error stuff sucks when it comes to cars and you have limited tools available.

Jstas

You guys are funny.

weirton57

IAC $45,its for your rough idle

bobsauto49

Jstas wrote: »

You guys are funny.

You're just jealous 'cause the voices didn't ask you!

sucks2beme

weirton57 wrote: »

IAC $45,its for your rough idle

Yes, one of a hundred possible problems.

bigaudiofanatic

Well finished installing the plugs, replacing the intake gaskets, and the PCV valve. Pulled the battery to reset everything. Fired it up and ran like a kitten. We let it run for about 3 minutes even revved the engine a few times it was great.

Than.....I turned the car on again after cleaning up to go for a ride, shuddering was back as well as weak acceleration. I went around the black and the car basically died it was barely idling. I had to literally push it back home. I am not happy and am running out of ideas. It did SQUEAK under gas towards the end as it basically died. No check engine light either.

Jstas

bobsauto49 wrote: »

You're just jealous 'cause the voices didn't ask you!

Nah, I pretty much ignore this voice.

sucks2beme

So something that happens when warm?
When cold, it's ok?

weirton57

Has the fuel filter been change if not you might want to, just a thought

bigaudiofanatic

sucks2beme wrote: »

So something that happens when warm?
When cold, it's ok?

Ya that is what i am thinking is happening. Oil has been checked as well.

thsmith

weirton57 wrote: »

Has the fuel filter been change if not you might want to, just a thought

Thats what I am thinking but I have only had VWs behave like that when FIlter needed to be replaced. Oddly they would smell rich and black smoke from exhaust. Early 80s Jetta

sucks2beme

If it's a cold/warm thing, look at things that happen when it warms up. There is a temp sensor
for the coolant. It may not be working well, or you might have very low coolant(or a big air pocket).
EGR also comes into play when warm. Of course, there could be a problem with fuel pressure,
and driving it demands more fuel. Time to stop fooling around and let a pro run diagnostics.

weirton57

I have 3 fords, change the IAC, if that does not work change the fuel filter,and if that does not work take it to the shop.
They are cheep parts and might save you a ton of money. your choice

sucks2beme

Not really the problem here. He has acceleration problems as well as idle.
I think changing the fuel filter is a good idea, since who knows if it was ever done before.
Should be done regardless.