How do SDA 2Bs and 1Cs compare?

headrott

westmassguy wrote: »

The ESAs do provide more apparent detail than the Sonicaps, but to my ears, it's too much, to the point of listening fatigue. I've done several upgrades for customers with the ESAs and Mundorf MOX resistors, but ended up tempering them a bit with Mills MRA-12 Resistors instead of the MOX. The Mills warm them up a bit. To each his own. Both are very fine Capacitors. As with everything, it depends on your own listening tastes.

I believe that the fatigue you get is due to the gear prior to your speakers (and Clarity cap ESA's). It has to do with the transparency of the Clarity Cap ESA's. If the sound you are sending from your source, DAC, pre-amp, and amp is not producing fatigue, then the speakers with Clarity Cap ESA's (and I am using Duelunds (also more transparent than Mills)) will not produce fatigue. I say this after changing amps 3 times (afer installing the Clarity Cap/Duelund combo in my 2.3TL's). That was my personal experience.

TennMan

From what you guys are saying the Sonicaps and Mill would suit my gear best. I don't have, and probably will never be able to afford, the top of the line gear. If I understand correctly, replacing the Mills with MOX resistors would add a little more detail to the Sonicaps if I did get better gear. Is that correct?

I really appreciate all the comments so far. Keep them coming. I have learned a lot from this thread.

nspindel

You should look to do your inductors as well. The 2B has drop-in replacements for the three inductors on the board available from Jantzen, and you can use a Solen to replace the 16mH inductor.

nspindel

You should also get a set of boards from Tony.

westmassguy

headrott wrote: »

I believe that the fatigue you get is due to the gear prior to your speakers (and Clarity cap ESA's). It has to do with the transparency of the Clarity Cap ESA's. If the sound you are sending from your source, DAC, pre-amp, and amp is not producing fatigue, then the speakers with Clarity Cap ESA's (and I am using Duelunds (also more transparent than Mills)) will not produce fatigue. I say this after changing amps 3 times (afer installing the Clarity Cap/Duelund combo in my 2.3TL's). That was my personal experience.

Actually, I believe it's my ears. I can't here much above 14-15KHz, and I'm very sensitive to that upper region, which also made the SL2000s painful to listen to, due to their rather nasty spike at 12-13 KHz

headrott

westmassguy wrote: »

Actually, I believe it's my ears. I can't here much above 14-15KHz, and I'm very sensitive to that upper region, which also made the SL2000s painful to listen to, due to their rather nasty spike at 12-13 KHz

Ahh, gotcha. Man those SL2000's much have been really harsh sounding. They were to my ears and I don't have an oversensitivity to any frequency range.

naturallight

I have to go alone with H9, that the room size and amps used of course has alot to do with if you like the 2B's over the 1C's. I've had these speakers for a long time..and pushed them with the same amp.



I was forced into having to play them in a smallish room. For a good amount of time. I was about to give up on them. The 2B's may have worked alot better in that size room...but thats a guess. When i finally got my downstairs finished..I moved everything down there. Now it's the same power amp, same feeds. The 1C's at that point turned into totally different speakers (except for the crappy sl2000..LOL) But even they didn't sound like total crap...(depending on what you played on it)



The room size seems to be the "wild card" for the 1C's. Now weather the 2B's could do the same..not so sure.

TennMan

If the 1Cs sound bad in a small room is it possible that the volume is too loud and the sound is bouncing around the room and messing up the timing that creates the SDA effect?

I have a 20'x14'. As I turn the volume up there seems to be a point where the SDA effect starts to diminish instead of getting better. The CRS+ are worse about that happening than the 2Bs I have. I don't think it's a matter of distortion as much as it is me having a really "live" room. I also have 11-1/2' ceilings that might have a detrimental effect. I don't know much about room treatments, and if I did, I don't have much choice about rearranging furniture or doing much else in the living room/great room where the speakers are located. The warden here is in charge of that.

F1nut

IMO, if you can afford the Clarity Cap ESA's, you will enjoy the results more than the Sonicaps.

Let me stick my 2 cents in here. The Clarity ESA 250V caps are actually cheaper than the 200V Sonicap's. Now, if you use the 630V Clarity caps, yeah they will cost more. However, there is no advantage to using the 630V version. In fact, there is a disadvantage in that they are MUCH larger making it harder to fit them on a board.

I'll also mention that Clarity doesn't come in the exact values (5.6uF instead of 5.8uF) like Sonicap does. While the Clarity values are close and within tolerance, I'm anal and I want the exact value.

F1nut

westmassguy wrote: »

I've compared the RDO-194s and RDO-198s on the same speaker, with updated crossovers. While not as dramatic as going from the SL2000 to the RDO-194, the difference is none-the-less very noticeable in a very good way.
Much more detail and clarity to my ears.

That's it right there! I've done the exact same comparisons. It's not the room size or the gear driving the speakers, it is the tweeter.

Mr. Bubbles

naturallight wrote: »

I have to go alone with H9, that the room size and amps used of course has alot to do with if you like the 2B's over the 1C's. I've had these speakers for a long time..and pushed them with the same amp.



.

I also agree that room size/ dimensions/ etc make a big difference on which model may sound best. However it is not always as simple as big speaker big room/ small speaker small room. I have tried my 2A's, SRS's, 1.2TL's and both pairs of my 1C's in rooms as small as 9x11, 12.5x16, and 26x16 and in all rooms the 2A's sounded better than the 1C's and the SRS and 1.2's sounded better than the 1C's. The big boys did naturally perform better in the larger room, but they also outperformed the 1C's even in the smaller two rooms as well. There are many things that come into play but personal preference is by far the most important. I currently run the 1.2's in the living room/ den and the SRS's in the bedroom switching them out for the 2A's on occasion. These occasions get fewer lately as the SRS are so heavy, but I also use that room more for auditioning new acquisitions than the living room.

heiney9

F1nut wrote: »

That's it right there! I've done the exact same comparisons. It's not the room size or the gear driving the speakers, it is the tweeter.

Your on crack if you don't think room size and gear plays a part in illuminating the positives and negatives in each one, regardless of the tweeter. The RD0198-1 isn't that different from the RD0194-1. Which one is better is open to interpretation but it isn't like going from a Ford to a Ferrari which the the way you make it sound Jesse

2BTL's in the wrong sized room with the wrong gear will sound worse than 1C's in a proper room with proper gear and RD0194-1's. That's all the point I was trying to make. There are A LOT of factors, the tweeter is one of several, and an intelligent person will look at the entire picture and analyze what they truly need and choose accordingly. Not just spout off about RD0198-1 for the win every time.

H9

heiney9

I would love to have a pair of 2.3TL's instead of my 1C's but my room would not do them justice and they probably would sound worse than my 1C's. In fact I could probably use 2B's since my room is smaller. I believe my room is the absolute minimum size to get the full, proper sound of the 1C's and even then I wonder in the back of my mind if smaller SDA's might even sound a tad better.

charley95

heiney9 wrote: »

I would love to have a pair of 2.3TL's instead of my 1C's but my room would not do them justice and they probably would sound worse than my 1C's. In fact I could probably use 2B's since my room is smaller. I believe my room is the absolute minimum size to get the full, proper sound of the 1C's and even then I wonder in the back of my mind if smaller SDA's might even sound a tad better.

I must agree with you on this. I miss my 2.3's, but I never got to experience true SDA with my small living room. I hate to say it but, my 15TL's sound better in my living space.

F1nut

You're taking my comment out of context. It was in response to westmassguy's post in which he states, "I've compared the RDO-194s and RDO-198s on the same speaker, with updated crossovers." The room and the gear are not part of that equation.

heiney9

Gotcha Jesse. I guess out of context happens a lot. It's the nature of a board like this sometimes.

H9

Oldfatdogs

I believe my room is the absolute minimum size to get the full, proper sound of the 1C's and even then I wonder in the back of my mind if smaller SDA's might even sound a tad better.

Just curious what are the dimensions of your room?

Dan

TennMan

heiney9 wrote: »

I would love to have a pair of 2.3TL's instead of my 1C's but my room would not do them justice and they probably would sound worse than my 1C's. In fact I could probably use 2B's since my room is smaller. I believe my room is the absolute minimum size to get the full, proper sound of the 1C's and even then I wonder in the back of my mind if smaller SDA's might even sound a tad better.

I know that you really like your 1Cs. Interesting that you think the 2Bs might sound better.

TennMan

F1nut wrote: »

... I'll also mention that Clarity doesn't come in the exact values (5.6uF instead of 5.8uF) like Sonicap does. While the Clarity values are close and within tolerance, I'm anal and I want the exact value.

Are you saying you would stick with all Sonicaps for the TL upgrade or do you mean just for the 5.8uf and use Clairty for the others?

Toolfan66

heiney9 wrote: »

I would love to have a pair of 2.3TL's instead of my 1C's but my room would not do them justice and they probably would sound worse than my 1C's. In fact I could probably use 2B's since my room is smaller. I believe my room is the absolute minimum size to get the full, proper sound of the 1C's and even then I wonder in the back of my mind if smaller SDA's might even sound a tad better.

I have a set of 1.2tl's, 1C's, and CRS+'s, all of which are hot rodded. I have owned a set of 2B's and 3.1tl's. I don't have the best room for my set up size wise. And I can tell you I wouldn't trade my 1.2tl's for anything. They do everything better. Room treatments are what put everything in place though.. The room can make or break SDA's but room treatments can fine tune your experience..

I would own 2.3tl's over 1C's any day and every day after..

heiney9

TennMan wrote: »

I know that you really like your 1Cs. Interesting that you think the 2Bs might sound better.

I think *maybe* they would integrate in my room better, especially at higher volumes. I could be all wrong however. I think I would miss something using the 2B's but the trade off having them in a smaller room vs the larger higher output 1C's might prove to be a positive.

Room size is a small living room with and attached dining room 11.5' in depth and about 18' in length and a large open archway at one end to the dining room. Seated on the couch puts me a little less than 2' from the wall (the couch is on) and the 1C's sit 8" from the opposite wall, making the front plane of the speakers at about 20" from the wall. So I loose almost 3' of depth at the sitting position. It just seems at times at high volume the 1C's are overpowering the listening space.

Again, I could be all wrong because it does sound good until you really crank it, then it seems to overwhelm the room a bit. At low, normal and even slightly elevated listening it sounds excellent!

I just wonder if 2B's would be a tad less overpowering for the room.

H9

P.s. My old living room (before I moved 2 years ago) was about 14' in depth and about 26' in length.

naturallight

Interesting stuff guys. My 1C's had not been used for 2 years, as i was stuck in a small senior rental place while i looked for the right house. When i finally moved, the only room i could put the speakers in was a back bedroom, as the whole house needed repainting, wallpaper pulled down, and the basement needed to be completely redone. The room was about 12x12, had two big windows in it, and an old very thick rug with heavy padding under it. To say the 1C's sounded bad in that room would be an understatement. To be blunt my old set of large Advents sounded better.

After 6 months of dealing with that, i was under the mistaken impression that the 1C's were pretty much shot, and time to look for other speakers. When i finished the basement, i moved the rack and equipment down there, but the 1C's were just put in a back room as i was trying out other speakers, and how i ended up with a set of RTi12's. The basement room by the way is 17x30. The only reason i put the 1C's back in play was, If they didn't sound like total crap, maybe i could sell them.



To my complete surprise, the 1C's sounded like brand new speakers. The SDA "effect" was in full swing, they sounded open, airy, if you turned them up, they would fill the whole room with sound, and the bass would pound you. Now thats just MY experience, with the 1C's. Now would a set of 2B's worked better in that bedroom. I tend to doubt it, i don't think any SDA type speaker would have worked well at all. Would the 2B's sound as good as the 1C's in the new 17x30 room...again, don't know, but would be interesting to try out.

F1nut

TennMan wrote: »

Are you saying you would stick with all Sonicaps for the TL upgrade

I would.

Toolfan66

F1nut wrote: »

I would.

You don't have Clarity Caps in yours??

F1nut

Toolfan66 wrote: »

You don't have Clarity Caps in yours??

Nope, not going to either.

naturallight

Just a note on the room size VS what the 1C's can do. Now again, i had not heard the 1C's for 2 years, when i put them in that bedroom. Now if you played them really low...they were maybe passable. But if you turned them up...it was like they sucked the air out of the room. For lack of better terms. The bass was not there, the SDA "effect" was min at best, nothing at all sounded good, plus you were treated to a double dose of bad, as they still had the SL2000 in them and you were sitting no more then 6+ feet away from them.



Now when they were played in the 17x30 room..set up in my usual way of 1 foot off the back wall and 1.5 off the sidewall. The difference in the rooms...is beyond massive to the point of...WHAT THE F.... Everything about the speakers changed. They were open, airy the sound stage was massive, the SDA "effect" was all over, but the volume..if you turned this up to close to 11 o'clock, with a newer recorded CD..the volume is massive, more then most people would want, and you get chest pounding bass. Now the equipment has not changed ..only the room.

Plus i also sit 15 feet back in this room....so the SL2000 are not beating me to death...they will get changed out, but it's not like there total trash (depending on what cd your playing..LOL)



Now again..thats just MY experience with the 1C's and room size...and only my ear.

naturallight

Will unmodified 2B's sound better then unmodified 1C's in a large room..or my 17X30 foot room?

Now i hate to jump on the boat of..bigger speakers, bigger room= winners.

But in this case...since the 2B's are lacking so many drivers as compared to the 1C's...I pretty much have to go along with that.



I sit 15 feet back in the room. The 1C's will kick you with bass sitting that far back, in the chest..no problem...and if you push the volume to 11 o'clock on the pre, will be way more then most people want to hear, and the room is filled with SDA sound.

Can the 2B's do that..in that size room....I just don't see it, since there lacking 6 speakers compared to the 1C's.

Now i may be wrong on this and since i don't have a set of 2B's...have no way to test this. But i'm not really buying the fact the 2B's sound better then the 1C's. (unmodified)..IN that size room....

Mr. Bubbles

naturallight wrote: »

Will unmodified 2B's sound better then unmodified 1C's in a large room..or my 17X30 foot room?

Now i hate to jump on the boat of..bigger speakers, bigger room= winners.

But in this case...since the 2B's are lacking so many drivers as compared to the 1C's...I pretty much have to go along with that.



I sit 15 feet back in the room. The 1C's will kick you with bass sitting that far back, in the chest..no problem...and if you push the volume to 11 o'clock on the pre, will be way more then most people want to hear, and the room is filled with SDA sound.

Can the 2B's do that..in that size room....I just don't see it, since there lacking 6 speakers compared to the 1C's.

Now i may be wrong on this and since i don't have a set of 2B's...have no way to test this. But i'm not really buying the fact the 2B's sound better then the 1C's. (unmodified)

From my experiences The 2B's sound better period. Many others here will disagree with me but i am unsure how many of those have actually done an A/B comparison. I have done so and with both on equal footing the 2A's/B's sounded better to me in all rooms I tried them in, small or large.

Toolfan66

F1nut wrote: »

Nope, not going to either.

Why? My inquiring mind wants to know.. LOL!!!

naturallight

OK..good info mr bubbles. But i do have to ask...are both the 1C's and the 2B's unmodified????

At least give them the same playing field...LOL

Now i will be the first one to tell you..1C's don't work in a 12x12 room..at all...no matter what you want to do to the room. There just too large..period..they sound like junk.



Now you say a large room..well what is a large room and what is in it?? Now in my case..the 17X30 room, the speakers are pretty much sitting on a concrete slab basement...has a dropped ceiling with heavy acoustical tiles in it....has no furniture on the sides or in front of the speakers, and i sit 15 feet back in this room. There is a bar at the end of the room...thats about it.



Now the 1C's will pretty much kick your butt, when i'm sitting 15 feet back in the room, if you want anything louder or more bass.....then your looking for CV's or something.



If you put 2B's in my room..and i'm sitting 15 feet back...sorry I just don't see the 2B's being better then the 1C's....BUT..just MY opinion on that. The SDA's are very room dependent...but i will say the 1C's are about the WORST on that, even the large SRS stuff is probably better. I have had these speakers for a long time, and played them in alot of "large" rooms...but not this size. These speakers have never sounded better..the volume and sound stage is massive, and there is no speaker i tried out so far that could come close.