cyprus

cnh

tonyb wrote: »

Given our situation of 17 trillion in debt and over 90 trillion in unfunded liability, which nobody talks about either, how do you think America's book will end ? Some will certainly blame capitalism, but I say to you it will be not from the capitalism theory, but those who's hands it's success or failure was placed in.

Absolutely! There will be MANY readings or who/what was responsible and they will be radically different from each other. But the problem above will the the SAME for each interpretation, because...it's "real"!

cnh

tonyb

Man, took ya long enough CNH, I was looking forward to you joining the discussion.

I'm pretty sure when the wheels come off the bus, the fingers will point to capitalism as the villian in order rush in something new, socialism, marxism, whatever.

Anyway, I see Cyprus cut a deal but all the details are not public yet except for one. They will skim deposits over 100,000 euros. Just take other peoples money, isn't that special. Going forward from that point, how does one trust the banking system again ? I know I sure wouldn't. Don't think for a second others won't eyeball that idea either. When you look at the amount of coin sitting in pension accounts, IRA's, it's only a matter of time.

I often wonder if market crashes like the last one are purposely constructed to basically steal. World finance has become so complicated and conveluted that one never really knows the true value of anything he/she owns. When you add in the creation of financial instruments that are created out of thin air, one must surely wonder who is playing the ponzi scheme on who.

tonyb

I guess the haircut the wealthy will take is now 40%.....yep you heard that right. The definition of "wealthy has now moved down to 100,000 euros or about 130,000 dollars. What idiot thinks they will just take almost half of Russian Mob money and live to a ripe old age ? Seriously....if someone confiscated 40% of my money, I might be looking to do the same.

I just don't get Germany, they are picking a fight with Russia they won't win. This will not bode well for anyone. I realize that letting Cyprus move out of the EU would have a negative effect on the euro, but when you run out of others money to confiscate, what then ? Who in their right mind would place money in their banking system again ?

Our own Justice Department, if you want to call it that, ruled that your money is not really yours once handed over to an investment firm. Such as in the Corzine case, or should I say fiasco. I do find it interesting that in our country, the definition of "wealthy" sits right at the 250,000 mark.....the exact amount accounts are insured up to. In Cyprus, some banks had insurance from the EU, kinda like our federal insurance on accounts. Their limit sat right at 100,000 euros, and what do you know they confiscated 40% of the coin over that threshhold. Some banks had no insurance also but it's still unclear whats to become of those.

This turn of events I believe will have lasting effects. Germany has what I believe shot a missile across the bow which may start another european conflict that no doubt will draw us in. With the middle east on fire, and Europe fighting within, confiscating peoples money, picking a fight with Russia,.....the future sure has a dim light. But .....the stock market is doing good.

cnh

Greek banks have lost a lot of money as many have pulled it out over the last year or so. I, myself, have some small accounts there that will probably prove worthless. The relative that I have given power of attorney to was almost mugged a few months ago as he was followed out of the bank by (well, you know)...and ran to his car with some of my cash, locked all his doors and sped off as his car was surrounded, briefly, in an almost zombie apocalypse fashion.

I'm over there for a wedding end of June. Though I've been there many times, this will be the first time for my wife and daughter, and let me tell you it's a little "embarrassing" for me the state that things are in even though I am first born in the U.S. and more American than Greek at this point?

Oh well!

cnh

avelanchefan

tonyb wrote: »

I guess the haircut the wealthy will take is now 40%.....yep you heard that right. The definition of "wealthy has now moved down to 100,000 euros or about 130,000 dollars. What idiot thinks they will just take almost half of Russian Mob money and live to a ripe old age ? Seriously....if someone confiscated 40% of my money, I might be looking to do the same.

I just don't get Germany, they are picking a fight with Russia they won't win. This will not bode well for anyone. I realize that letting Cyprus move out of the EU would have a negative effect on the euro, but when you run out of others money to confiscate, what then ? Who in their right mind would place money in their banking system again ?

Our own Justice Department, if you want to call it that, ruled that your money is not really yours once handed over to an investment firm. Such as in the Corzine case, or should I say fiasco. I do find it interesting that in our country, the definition of "wealthy" sits right at the 250,000 mark.....the exact amount accounts are insured up to. In Cyprus, some banks had insurance from the EU, kinda like our federal insurance on accounts. Their limit sat right at 100,000 euros, and what do you know they confiscated 40% of the coin over that threshhold. Some banks had no insurance also but it's still unclear whats to become of those.

This turn of events I believe will have lasting effects. Germany has what I believe shot a missile across the bow which may start another european conflict that no doubt will draw us in. With the middle east on fire, and Europe fighting within, confiscating peoples money, picking a fight with Russia,.....the future sure has a dim light. But .....the stock market is doing good.

I agree Tony....nearly crapped myself when I heard 40% of all bank deposits were seized. I immediately thought...."this is how wars are started." Good read on Bloomberg. What has been scaring me over the last 6 months is what I perceive as an over inflation of our own markets. Especially the last month with stories of "new" record highs, I am just waiting for the crash.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-25/saving-cyprus-means-nobody-safe-as-europe-breaks-more-taboos.html

tonyb

Hope you have a good time regardless CNH, but your post does bring up another aspect of this. People withdrawing money and those looking to steal it from you on the street.

Now how do you protect yourself ? With a whistle ? A scream ? Criminals as we know will always have a gun but now they know everyone will be hording cash in their homes. Don't have to be a rocket scientist to see how that ends. Hopefully their press isn't as stupid as ours that tells criminals where the guns aren't.

Once again we move down that path of history repeating itself, never having learned a thing from it. The evolution of man has gone nowhere in my book.

amulford

Once again we move down that path of history repeating itself, never having learned a thing from it.

I hear you. This is how WWII basically started. One country coveted anothers wealth and took it. With Germany and Italy it was land and resources. Japan wanted raw materials. While this is different, it's still the same. This time the resource is money.

I'm not going to say that probably most of the Russian money isn't dirty. Why else would they want to hide it offshore? What I want to know is if the wealth of the bank heads are ravaged along with that of the depositers who entrusted their institutions to safeguard that wealth? Why aren't these people held accountable?

The problem is this precedent is going to destrioy any faith we have in a banking system. This isn't the same as losing it in investments because you trusted some shark and he lost it. This is an in your face I'm taking your money to cover my debts. I know I'd be very tempted to take some drastic action for someone grabbing 40% of my savings.

I heard that today the finance minister for the EU, or something to that effect, stated other countries should look to this as an option to help with their troubles. That taxpayers shouldn't be held responsible. WTF are depositers, I ask you? Aren't they the very same people who pay taxes, too? So they should pay taxes AND give up a large chunk of their savings, ta boot.

tonyb

Antny,
As far as the heads of these banks taking a haircut, I want to guess no. Why ? The banks are all closed to the general public and ATM's have a 100 euro limit daily each account. The bank heads always have access to their money, I'll bet they are moving it as the banks stay shut for everyone else.

Bad policy....yeah, but I'm not so sure Germany is doing the right thing. I know they are between a rock and a hard place trying to keep up support for the euro but maybe it would have been best to let Cyprus bite the bullet. On one hand you have Germany, good economy, people work hard, they strive to do better. On another hand, most other nations in the EU are like **** children always looking to Germany to bail them out while enjoying lavish pensions and welfare, less working hours, more vacation days. How can you blame Germany for wanting strings attached ? The welfare lifestyle alot of EU nations enjoy simply isn't sustainable and surely the Germans aren't going to keep footing the tab for all the others. So you raise taxes and cut welfare.....like I always say, once you give it to someone it's hard to take it away without riots in the streets. Such is our path, a race to the lower middle class with a ruling elite.

Have you seen the stories on their Healthcare system ? Read up, another path we have chosen.Gets to a point where you tax and take so much from the earners, and add soo many benefits to the non earners, it doesn't pay anymore to be an earner. Better to receive than to give. Before you know it you'll have 100 takers feeding off 10 earners, how does that math work ? It doesn't, thats why so many EU nations are in trouble....thats why we are in trouble. To get votes you have to keep handing out the freebies, sound familiar ? The cycle continues with each new leader. Anyone who wants to return to fiscal responsibility is demonized, called extremists, or holding some kind of racial grudge. We are no different, just pick up a newspaper anywhere or read your favorite news online. It's not a matter of jumping up and down over one thing that seems small, but it's a on going accumulation of small things that snowball with no accountability. Untill you wake up one day and say how the F did we get here ? Then it's too late.

tonyb

World finance can paint a great picture.

Cyprus banks opened today for a limited time. They also added some currency controls, 300 euro limit, no money can be taken out of the country. In essense, you and your coin are being held captive. News stories suggests Russian money was long gone before the new rules and I imagine the bank heads got their coin out too. Taking money is for you little folks, not the elite.

On a side note in world finance, any of you guys paying attention to this ?

http://www.ibtimes.com/so-long-yankees-china-brazil-ditch-us-dollar-trade-deal-brics-summit-1153415

In case your unaware, Brics is a new international banking system set up to be free of western influence. Russia, China, India, Brazil, and South Africa. Those nations account for about half the world population. The idea is to not have to abide by any rules the IMF sets forth such as human rights violations as a condition to receive money. Thats telling isn't it ? Also their economies won't suffer as much if they aren't tied to western financial systems. The dollar is not part of this.

This is a bigger story than Cyprus, and one thats getting zip in coverage. This, in my opinion, is a move to flip world influence and eventually remove the dollar as a world reserve currency....and we all know what that means. Simply put, half of the worlds population is saying we do not want the United States and Europes money because of the strings attached. Once Brics obtains enough money to throw it's weight around, who do you think we will answer to ? Mind you, thats a tad off into the future yet but the ground work is being put down. Scary times ahead folks.

steveinaz

Tony,
Bev & I have made some "adjustments" to ensure access to our (emergency) savings; since we earn almost nothing in interest on this money---it's now deposited in the Bank of Stevie. It'll remain this way until things start looking up. I trust these SOB's about as far as I can throw them.

tonyb

LOL Steve, I hear ya man. Trusting big banks/governments/elites......you'll get the shaft every time. Thing is, most average folks who have over 250g's in an account somewhere represents a life time of saving, or family money handed down. To take 40% of your life away....thats crazy talk and has tin foil hat written all over it. Obviously not however as reality sets in. Do you think if anyone suggested the Cyprus people take all their coin out of the banks 2 years ago, they'd have taken you seriously ?

Lessons learned, in the end trust noone with whats valuable to you. Don't put anymore than is federally insured into one account. Always have some money with 24 hour access, even if banks closed or suspend access to your accounts. Have some dry goods/food stockpiled. No, I'm not saying become one of those wackos preparing for the end of the civilized world, just have some excess inventory of necessities to get you by a few months.

The winds of change are blowing, and none seem to be in our favor.

cnh

Your picture of the "Germans", tonyb is not the picture that most other members of the EU would paint. German banks have been "predatory", and have made huge profits lending to economies they KNEW would crash, and **** around with something like derivatives in various national bond markets, etc. Now that those STUPID nations that thought that money was "FREE" or had no strings attached are sinking, the INNOCENT German banks don't want to LOSE any money that "funny" money--that never had any VALUE to begin with and was NEVER expected to accrue value!

In other words the German banks are bailing themselves out at the expense of all their meddling and speculation in these LESSER national markets! And forcing those countries to bear not only their own burden but also the duplicity of the original German speculation? I would not want to be a German in a Mediterranean country these days. lol Ah, the Germans, such a "morally pure" history have they!

Anthony, is on the mark in arguing that MOST wars are ECONOMIC in nature. And that is one reason why we will probably NOT see another world war anytime soon. The various WORLD FINANCIAL entities that were put in place to surveil the global economy after WWII have mostly prevented any nation from fomenting a third world war while continuing to make decisions that are sometimes good but often "horrific" for third world nations! Who, of course, have no economic and little military power to resist the outside world. So, instead, they are riddled with continual political instability within their borders as well as "interminable" internecine conflicts. And "we" don't seem to understand "why", American myopia?

Only a complete global collapse that eviscerates entities like the IMF, World Bank, etc., might allow a World War to ensue! Not that "I" desire one! But the world is in desperate need of the DESTRUCTION of massive amounts of Capital in order to "rebalance" the global economy! And, sadly, that's what World Wars "do" very very well!

cnh

tonyb

Yes and no CNH, I don't think any of the other UE nations view Germany as I do. You can't argue the fact though, they all voted for this setup. They gave away some freedoms for their supposed financial security, but failed to change internally to meet those obligations. Sound familiar ? Germany gave them some leway to make changes on their own, but they didn't and kept coming back to ask for more money. Did Germany know they couldn't sustain this ? Of course they did, but the flipside is a failed Euro and reprocussions that we would feel too. Now Germany is forcing change as a condition for the coin. Stealing money out of accounts though, is not my idea of an acceptable form of change.

Point being, unless your self sufficient, personally or as a country, those who hold the purse strings get to make the rules, demand certain behavior. Not such a far fetched theory is it ? You would do the same if constantly asked to loan the same friend money.

Poorer nations don't bode well under this system for many reasons. One being most are run by tyrants, despots, who's only interest is themselves. The Brics system is being set up to give the poorer nations more access to money without the demands of the west. Understandable if your one of those poorer nations. Still, there will always be certain requirements to get a loan, regardless of the system. You want to get a loan from the system thats more stringent....or less ? Our own housing bubble proves that answer.

Just my opinion, but Russia, China, India, are playing both sides of the fence here. The old habits of mankind, greed, lust for power, domination over your fellow man, will always be around and create havoc around the globe. The only thing standing in the way of turning the planet on it's ear...is us. I don't excuse our own faults in those same habits either. Kinda like a game of chess, and our King is getting boxed into a corner. America is no innocent bystander, but I like to believe we still stand for some decency unlike many other nations who seem to be consolidating power. Whats that old saying...."the pen is mightier than the sword ". Thats how you bring down the big dog, the stumbing block in the way, by the pen, financially.

I might also add, who's best interest is it in to keep borrowing us money.....knowing we can never repay it ? House of cards we are building here and no desire to stop adding cards on the top.

rpf65

Lets face it, the people whose money is being stolen, "for the good of the country", are nothing more than victums here. It was no different thean bond holders during the auto bailouts of 09.I still think any official involved in that scheme should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, but that's another matter.

The problemis that for some unimagineable reason, people think that "being fair" is stealing from people who have earned whatever they have, and give it to those who haven't. It's one thing to help those that really need it, I don't think anybody has a problem with that. The problem is when people think that just because the exist, the should be taken care of, or even worse, when their perfect plan to do whatever it is they are trying to accomplish should have no consequences.

Cyprus is in such dire straights because their bamks invested way too much in risky ventures. The same thing happened to the U.S. housing industry, but that was more a "fairness" thing, rather than bad inestment risk evaluation. Again off topic,but a relevant example. A lot of this could have been avoided if people would just accept the fact that just because you were born, does not make you special. That is the problem with societies in general. Just because Cypress was part of the EU does not mean that they don't have the responsibility to contribute to their own well being.

If your in an industry that pays $10 per hour, and your neighbor is in an industry that pays $20 per hour, he does not owe you the difference. People seem to not understand this basic concept anymore.

steveinaz

^Amen.

steveinaz

We must in this country, learn to stop depending on the government. When you depend, you give up control of your life--it's just that simple; because now you are beholden to them. Many in this country see the government as "in-charge" of things---not so; they are put there to manage things. They are not over us, they ARE us. They do OUR bidding, not their own personal agendas. When you surrender too much power to them, the balance shifts in an unhealthy way. They begin dictating rather than listening. The REAL problem is voting. less than 1/3rd of this country elects our president(s); so 27% of Americans are deciding for the other 73% on the direction we take---no wonder everyone is pissed off and disenfranchised. And IT'S OUR OWN FAULT. VOTE. People have died to allow you the right to vote, honor them by voting.

tonyb

Gonna drag up this thread, simply because I wanted to say.....Told ya so.

http://www.infowars.com/chase-bank-limits-cash-withdrawals-bans-international-wire-transfers/

So now it starts. Chase wouldn't be doing this if other banks were not to follow suit eventually imho. Certainly not extreme as Cypress was, but it's opening the door for that environment. Can't happen here ? How many times have we said that about other situations only to be proven wrong ? This type of change creeps in, slowly, continuously, it's never a flip the switch and we change the American society type of thing. I would say this is one of those things that should be of concern to everyone.

Kex

http://www.forbes.com/sites/halahtouryalai/2013/10/17/no-jpm-isnt-banning-international-wire-transfers-no-limits-on-withdrawals-either/

"No, JPM Isn't Banning International Wire Transfers, No Limits On Withdrawals Either"

"Chase says you can still exceed the $50,000 cash activity limit but do it four times in a rolling calendar year and you’ll get automatically upgraded to the next level account.

So, no, there is no cash activity limit in the Performance Business and Platinum level accounts but you’ll have to maintain higher balances to avoid the larger monthly fees.

It looks like theses changes are more about Chase looking to generate more revenue from fees than an attempt to control capital."

ZLTFUL

Kex wrote: »

It looks like theses changes are more about Chase looking to generate more revenue from fees than an attempt to control capital."

Yet these aren't mutually exclusive.
Revenue generation on 0.75% (example only not actual numbers) when you are talking about regular "consumer" accounts is a pittance and I agree with you on that statement.
But take that same 0.75% "fee" and apply it to thousands of $50,000/month cash transaction accounts and suddenly, you are talking about some definitive capital.

tonyb

My question is, why not just charge x amount for wire transfers, period. Why put any sort of capitol controls on your money ? Keeping it all into perspective, it is your money, not theirs. Access to it should never be limited. Given the amount of small businesses that turn over the 50,000 requirement, it's safe to say this is B.S.

soundfreak1

Its the golden rule...he who has the gold makes the rules.

tonyb

soundfreak1 wrote: »

Its the golden rule...he who has the gold makes the rules.

Begs for another question......who has it ? Anyone seen it ? How much do we have sitting in Fort Knox ? Anyone know ?

Check out this video, kinda long but stick with it. Does a great job of illustrating how our banking system works.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrwbgdtbdXE

pitdogg2

tonyb wrote: »

My question is, why not just charge x amount for wire transfers, period. Why put any sort of capitol controls on your money ? Keeping it all into perspective, it is your money, not theirs. Access to it should never be limited. Given the amount of small businesses that turn over the 50,000 requirement, it's safe to say this is B.S.

In case you haven't noticed Tony it has been a LOOOOONG time since the banks paid you(interest) to keep your money. Now you must pay them to even bank anywhere. Oh sure they still pay interest something .000627% on anything as long as you keep a said amount in there. Even then you pay them a for any and everything just to use YOUR own money....
So lets see I made $.003267 on interest yet paid them 500.00 just for the convenience of walking in the door....

All they do is sit around and dream up ways to fleece you then try and back peddle when you catch them... In case nobody noticed the bank are in better shape NOW than before the recession. They made all the money they lost and them another 100billion in profit to boot.

disclosure all numbers are fake in my post but you get the drift.....

rpf65

I believe the first "tax" on savings that will occur is converting all 401K's and IRA's to Roth 401K's. Maybe allow everybody 2 years to convert it over. That would be some serious cash going to the IRS. Then my guess is "it wouldn't be fair" to allow anybody tax free money, so they'll at the very least have to tax the dividends/interest/capital gains; of course just to be fair.

I think we have that long before huge taxes on savings/checking/money market accounts.