My used separates nightmare (or how I went Emo)

teekay0007

kuntasensei wrote: »

My musician brother happened to come over after I got it all set up...

Sounds like most of the musicians I know...show up after all the heavy lifting is done. :loneranger:

Sherardp

Congrats on the new gear.

kuntasensei

ZLTFUL wrote: »

I find your observations interesting. My very non-audiophile wife who could give 2 craps about my hobbies said the Adcom sounds a lot better than my Emos.

Don't get me wrong, as you stated it perfectly...*YOUR* ears tell you differently.
But my Adcom is a perfect match for my RTA-15TLs compared to the Emo, Yamaha integrated, the Kenwood and Onkyo (the original owner) that I have heard my particular speakers on.

But I feel opposite about my home theater. The Emo is perfectly at home there and I am very happy with its performance in that role.

A lot of it is likely due to which speakers I'm using AND the type of music I've played on it so far. I'm not saying the Adcom sounds bad by any stretch... but with bluegrass instruments, I'm liking the way the Emo sounds with those old silk-dome tweeters (I never could stand the sound of the tri-laminate tweeters). Haven't had a chance to throw any rock at it yet, which will be interesting. Of course, the other possibility is that the Adcom simply isn't working the way it should, considering one of the three channels randomly flakes out right now - I've been using it stereo only for my mains. All I know is that the Adcom sounds great for most music but when you get into the upper registers with stringed instruments (violin especially), it gets a very subtle sound to it almost as if someone were dragging a needle across the tweeters. It's very odd... and "grainy" is the only word I can think of to describe it. You also hear it in female voices, especially Alison Krauss and Sara Watkins (of Nickel Creek).

It will be more telling once I've had a chance to re-EQ everything and throw some listening material at it. Right now, it seems like something's a little lacking in mid-bass near the crossover range, so I'm wondering if the equalization in place from when I had the Parasound in the loop is just vastly different than what it needs to be for the Emo. Sounds pretty solid with Audyssey turned off, so I'm hoping the post-EQ result will be even better.

Either way, I'm happy with it... and if the guy ends up fixing the Parasound, BONUS.

Jhayman

Either way, I'm happy with it... and if the guy ends up fixing the Parasound, BONUS

and that's all that matters.. :-]

kuntasensei

Ran all 8 positions of Audyssey XT. It read my mains and center as 40Hz. Normally, I would dial it up a bit from there, but I figured I'd see how it sounded with the settings Audyssey found. It also set my surrounds to 50Hz all the way around, which is lower than I would normally run them... but considering the receiver is now just powering the 6 surrounds, I left it there to see how it sounds. Music is now sounding vastly better, with mid-bass coming back up to where I expected. The clear highs are still there, but Audyssey seems to have tamed the very top end, giving voices a very natural sound now. Threw a lot of music at it, and I'm pretty happy with the post-equalized sound. As I suspected, a lot of the issues I had with the way it sounded were due to the equalization from when I had the Parasound in place.

Figured I should give the system a workout to see how it fares under stress, so I threw in Super 8 in 7.1 and set it to 9.1 playback using Audyssey DSX. HOLY MOTHER OF GOD. The train scene has always been amazing, but placement of sounds as those train cars flip around the soundscape is impressive. Bass stayed solid as well, and it really seems like running the speakers at lower crossover points has made the sub sound even better for the deep-trolling room-threatening bass. I still need to dial my Buttkicker in to blend better with the sub (it's way too hot right now), but I'm tweaking it as I watch the rest of Super 8 and should have it dialed in to be a subtle addition like I normally like it.

And after brutalizing it with that train scene, the Emo is barely warm. Sound-wise, I'm not ready to give up on the Parasound just yet... but man, the XPA-3 does a good job of holding its own. The slightly brighter character seems to work nicely with movies, so much so that it may be hard going back to the Parasound after this. And that is NOT what I expected.

Either way... big grin on my face. I can enjoy my gear now instead of fretting over it like I have the last 8 months or so. :cheesygrin:

Loud & Clear

The five-year warranty really helps with peace of mind. The UPA-200 for $349 has really impressed me. It's putting out a rated 200w into 4 ohms. My LSi7s really sound nice with this amp. I would buy this amp again if lost or stolen. 12 volt trigger is also handy.

Getting that Adcom 5400 that showed up with distortion in both channels has really soured me on used amps. I'll be getting a refund for most of it - probably lose out on half the shipping - but the time lost, the hassle and disappointment is both irritating and frustrating. And as has been mentioned, these Emotiva people actually answer the phone when you call them, and speak a reasonable brand of english as well. I bought their product through amazon.com. Lacking a tracking number, I phoned Emotiva and an english-speaking woman not only answered the phone, but gave me the tracking number for my amp in a matter of seconds. I like this company better the more I think about them. Hell, I might buy their t-shirts and undershorts.

kuntasensei

Heh... I'm not ready to go that far, but the more material I play on this setup, the happier I am. I considered getting a UPA-700 so I can put my 6 surrounds on it... but I think the AVR is doing a pretty solid job on the surrounds/heights. Time to just sit back and LISTEN.

math wizard

As some have stated here, hum is sometimes induced by other components. I'm on my 3rd Emotiva amp and am loving them.

F1nut

Someone drank a whole pitcher of Kool-Aid.

Jhayman

As usual nothing nice to say at all reguarding someone's Happiness with an Emotiva Product..
One can only conclude by your ongoing negativity towards Emo is you are very upset at yourself for drinking the more expensive Kool-Aid when all along Emotiva was there Ready Willing and Able to do the Job.

F1nut wrote: »

Someone drank a whole pitcher of Kool-Aid.

Loud & Clear

Someone drank something far more expensive than kool-aid, and it doesn't taste any better. ;>}

kuntasensei

Yeah, my intention wasn't to stir up the usual anti-Emo snobbery here (which I've railed against long before I ever owned one of their products). I really wanted the Parasounds to work out, and I still think for music, the HCA-2003 has a more refined character to it than the XPA-3. But honestly, the more I watch movies on my rig now, the more I'm convinced that even if the HCA-2003 gets 100% back in action, the XPA-3 is staying put. I've watched Tron Legacy and War Of The Worlds at pretty crazy levels this week, and the sound is insanely cohesive... and never seems lacking for power. As I've said before, I think it's probably just a matter of synergy with these particular speakers and the acoustics of my room... and if that means I'm drinking the Kool-Aid, then you can just put the pitcher down in front of me so I can keep on happily drinking. :cheesygrin:

I'm not evangelizing or putting down anyone else's choices... Just saying that for the $599 I paid, I'm pretty happy with the way it sounds.

Jhayman

Your intention may not have been to stir up the anti-Emo snobbery but F1nut's comment most certainly was to do just that..

kuntasensei wrote: »

Yeah, my intention wasn't to stir up the usual anti-Emo snobbery here (which I've railed against long before I ever owned one of their products). I really wanted the Parasounds to work out, and I still think for music, the HCA-2003 has a more refined character to it than the XPA-3. But honestly, the more I watch movies on my rig now, the more I'm convinced that even if the HCA-2003 gets 100% back in action, the XPA-3 is staying put. I've watched Tron Legacy and War Of The Worlds at pretty crazy levels this week, and the sound is insanely cohesive... and never seems lacking for power. As I've said before, I think it's probably just a matter of synergy with these particular speakers and the acoustics of my room... and if that means I'm drinking the Kool-Aid, then you can just put the pitcher down in front of me so I can keep on happily drinking. :cheesygrin:

I'm not evangelizing or putting down anyone else's choices... Just saying that for the $599 I paid, I'm pretty happy with the way it sounds.

F1nut

My comment was directed at math wizard.

One can only conclude by your ongoing negativity towards Emo is you are very upset at yourself for drinking the more expensive Kool-Aid when all along Emotiva was there Ready Willing and Able to do the Job.

Nice try, not even close. You seem to forget that I have heard your love and a vast number of other gear. Hence, my opinion. Sure, for HT it will do ok as it is MUCH less demanding. For music, no way.

kuntasensei

Not trying to poke the bear... but how do you figure home theater is "less demanding" considering modern digital mixes? I would think it's a safe bet that most movies tend to have more 20-60Hz content than any music you'll find short of pipe organs, which would be the bulk of the hard-to-drive content. Also, since movies tend to be mixed for more dynamic range than music, I would also posit that HT would be far more demanding on the need for transient bursts of sound and accurate reproduction at greater levels. Just curious what you mean - not trying to pick a fight or get into... whatever issue you have with math wizard.

ZLTFUL

Accuracy. Nuance.
2 things that HT doesn't require.
Reproducing an explosion doesn't require the subtlety and accuracy that reproducing a flute with enough accuracy that the listener can actually hear the valves opening and closing does.

Jhayman

I would also like to know if an amp is perfectly fine for HT, then why can't it be perfectly fine for 2 channel?
I mean you are very happy with EMO in HT, I really cannot see what the difference would be.
You either want the best sound that your ears think they hear for all your listening or not.
So why settle for EMO in HT if their are better?
Unless HT is not important to you, if that's the case why use EMO at all just use an $300 AVR.

Jhayman

Please tell me what song has the flute valve opening and closeing so I can get it and see if I can hear it..

Polkie2009

That's an excellent point Jhayman, HT tends to be loud and proud , I ran my old Crest Audio Professional 4000 amp in my HT and it never broke a sweat, talk about bass:). Ended up buying a used Parasound 1200ii amp from one of our fellow polkies here to run the mains. Now I'm using the Crest P4000 it as a amp for a passive sub cabinet.:cheesygrin:

F1nut

There are subtle's, nuances, tones, details and micro details, decay, imaging and soundstage (the sense of space) in music that make it far more demanding than a movie soundtrack.

Jhayman

Well Please F1nut give us A few songs to try our inferior amps on to see if we can hear what you hear..
Just a couple that you believe we won't hear what you hear.

Dawgfish

I have to agree with the others in that it's harder to get two channel music right than HT. I've had amps that sound great with HT that simply didn't cut if for two channel listening. In HT dynamics, power, and presence seem to be more important attributes than accuracy, smoothness, tone, imaging and soundstaging. Having a multi-speaker setup in HT makes things like imaging and soundstage less important. It's much more noticable in two channel listening when an amp is lacking in those areas. Also in HT, many of the high pitched sound effects are served well by amps that tend to be on the bright side of things. If an amp is bright for two channel listening however it becomes very fatiging very quick. I have found that amps that sound good with music will often sound good for HT also but it doesn't necesarily work the other way around.

F1nut

I'd make the offer for you drop in to hear the differences, but I know you're not around the corner, so I'll suggest you grab some of your favorite music and head over to a real hifi shop.

cnh

One of my favorite quotes (and I paraphrase) from Doro (where is HE?) was:

HT is easy, two channel is where it's at! Or something to that effect. It's all about what F1nut, Dawgfish and Zitful have mentioned, above.

Heck, years ago I had a Panasonic Digital (D amps) AVR whose sound was "far" better than it should have been in 6.1 surround (almost as good as "anything" I've heard since and that was "supposed" to produce digital artifacts, weighed nothing and drew about 135 watts from the wall). Absolutely "surprising" DVD performance--and bench tests showed that it could actually put out 80 watts x 6 RMS all channels driven which is more than most AVRs that weigh 3-5 times more than this little and much maligned AVR.

But put that into the two channel mode and prepare to hear it's shortcomings!

No one here is raining on anyone's party. They're just talking about "different" things!

Enjoy, Kunta...!


cnh

Jhayman

No no just name a few songs and I will play them upstairs on a crappy stereo then try them on my gear downstairs.
Oh and I'm quite sure The Highend shops in Toronto are not using aftermarket PC's but a few of the stores I've been in do sell them..
When I inquired to the salesman about them and my questions to him, our eyes locked and he just smiled at me and I knew I was right..to a point.
As for HT not needing to be as accurate as 2 channel, well I disagree, bad sound is bad sound and you guys would not tolerate bad sound at all even in your HT because your your need for perfection you would not settle for EMO.

Loud & Clear

Listen (pun intended), all that matters is what you hear. I very recently kicked out two expensive integrated amps - Jolida 801 tube, and Yamaha A-S2000 - for an inexpensive one, Yamaha A-S500; I did so because the cheap one sounded as good or better in my particular room with my particular gear. The tube amp didn't have enough balls for my speakers and the fancy SS wasn't appreciably better. I learned something through this process that the various rags could have never shown me. The "tubes rule" refrain doesn't hold true for everyone or every setup.

And don't underestimate human nature: few men like to think that one man's $500 investment is worth their $5,000 investment. They'll defend what's theirs to the death.

cnh

Loud & Clear wrote: »

Listen (pun intended), all that matters is what you hear. I very recently kicked out two expensive integrated amps - Jolida 801 tube, and Yamaha A-S2000 - for an inexpensive one, Yamaha A-S500; I did so because the cheap one sounded as good or better in my particular room with my particular gear. The tube amp didn't have enough balls for my speakers and the fancy SS wasn't appreciably better. I learned something through this process that the various rags could have never shown me. The "tubes rule" refrain doesn't hold true for everyone or every setup.

And don't underestimate human nature: few men like to think that one man's $500 investment is worth their $5,000 investment. They'll defend what's theirs to the death.

This is a little off topic. But I remember the exchange about the Yamaha. So you found the Higher end Yammie with all the "extra" engineering that the 500 didn't have to be about as "good"?

That is interesting. Of course since I'm into "vintage" stuff as well, I can tell you that my fleamart HK 430 (25 watts x 2) receiver and a pair of Dynaco A25s rival my Lsi-7 system below on some music. So synergy, room, etc. Sure, all that matters. The Dynaco and the HK have an almost perfect synergy and the room is the "right" one! lol

cnh

ZLTFUL

So what you're saying is that you can hear individual particles accelerating in an explosion? I think you need a job at CERN listening for the Higgs-Boson. Screw all of that magnetic imaging equipment!

I have a friend that I have been trying to get over to my house for a while now to listen to his music on something other than his studio monitors (He is a musician and music producer who does all of his own mastering).
The flute example was from him. He is a very critical listener. In fact, he spent about 30 minutes scooting my chair around my room trying to find *his* sweet spot.
I switched from some Kenny Wayne Shepherd to a Miles Davis DVD-A compilation I made. I forgot which song specifically but it starts out in a quiet studio with just a touch of background hiss. Suddenly you hear some very faint almost thumps...but higher in the frequency range than footsteps or the like. Then the flute starts playing and you hear the same sound faintly after each note from the flute. My friend makes the comment, "Holy ****! Those were the valves being fingered."
I have listened to that same DVD-A disc on my HT system which is powered by an Emo UPA-5 (125wpc) and have NEVER heard those same sounds. And my HT system is set up pretty damned good/sounds fantastic with movies...but isn't even close to my 2 channel system when it comes to accuracy.

But I am pretty sure that for the sake of this argument and you always wanting to "know you're right", you will act like you have actually heard that same thing before on just your TV speakers.

Jhayman

Song Please..
Oh and while were at I think it's you guys and your golden ears that need to work for CERN..

Dawgfish

Jhayman wrote: »

No no just name a few songs and I will play them upstairs on a crappy stereo then try them on my gear downstairs.
Oh and I'm quite sure The Highend shops in Toronto are not using aftermarket PC's but a few of the stores I've been in do sell them..
When I inquired to the salesman about them and my questions to him, our eyes locked and he just smiled at me and I knew I was right..to a point.
As for HT not needing to be as accurate as 2 channel, well I disagree, bad sound is bad sound and you guys would not tolerate bad sound at all even in your HT because your your need for perfection you would not settle for EMO.

Hey man, I'm not trying to bash you at all, just relaying my past experiences with audio on to others. I had an Emo amp in my HT set-up and was quite satisfied with it. For HT purposes it did just fine and I was very happy with it's sound. I was using this in a very elaborate HT set-up I might add and I did not find it lacking in any way. In fact I find Emo amps excel in that application. I tried this same amp in my two channel setup later on when two channel became my main focus and I quickly found out it was seriously lacking in that application for my ears.

I agree with you in principle that if you are going to do HT right, just go ahead and use high quality equipment that will sound good in any application. It was really about price and budget. I got quite satisfactory performance with my Emo amp in my HT setup and I was quite satisfied. Sure I would have loved to have heard my HT setup with some top-notch amps in the mix, but the Emo did just fine and I didn't feel the need to upgrade. This was clearly not the case with two channel music however and like many of the others have alluded to, I wish it would have been. I've spent A LOT more money since then on my two channel setups.