Great wire discussion!

Frank Z

Found this link on AVSForum and thought some of you folks might be up for a good (long) read.

http://www.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/5/6528.html


There are lots of additional links within the thread, so you might want to bookmark it for later reference.

Emlyn

Thanks for the link Frank. I agree with Gene's article. Last week I took delivery of enough new interconnects from Blue Jeans Cable to swap out every analog interconnect used for music in my home theater:

5 from receiver to amp, 6 from DVD to receiver, 2 from CD to receiver, 2 from turntable to phono amp, 2 from phono amp to receiver.

Previously I had been using a mix of Monster 550i cables and AR cables. The bass does now seem to be less boomy with the Blue Jeans Cable. I had never noticed a high frequency roll-off that others had complained of with Monster's interconnects, so the highs seem to be about the same with the new cables. The AR cables always seemed to smear high frequencies to me, and I know why now. Out of interest, I decided to cut into an AR interconnect cable to see what they are made of. They are cheap, with an aluminum mylar shield, some kind of stranded plastic insulation, and two thin stranded conductors. They are fine for a low end system, so I'm keeping them to use elsewhere. Radio Shack's cables are made with much better parts.

Blue Jeans uses Belden 1505F cable and Canare RCA plugs for their recommended interconnects. They also make cables with Belden 89259, but they are about a third more expensive. Signal Cable uses the 89259 wire and Scosche RCA plugs, but their interconnects work out to be twice as expensive as the Blue Jeans cables. The 1505F cable uses a double copper braided shield and a polyethylene dielectric. The 89259 uses a bare copper shield and a teflon dielectric. Blue Jeans says the performance is the same for both cables but the 89259 is favored in situations where a better fire rating for large runs of cable is desired. Apparently cables containing a polyethylene dielectric emit toxic fumes when burned and cables containing a teflon dielectric don't.

As far as I can tell, the new cables don't add anything and don't take anything away like the Monster cables did. They are adequately shielded and reject the interference that seemed to come through the AR cables. For the price (around $230 delivered for everything), the new cables are hard to beat. I had thought of ordering a couple pair of Kimber Hero interconnects, but didn't see the sense of spending $300 only to still have most of the system using the old cables. I think 5 to 7 percent of the system budget now seems about right for interconnects.

I'm also a fan of 12 AWG speaker wire.

HBombToo

Richard Merrick
Friday, November 14, 2003 - 02:19 pm

---

I've been a professional audio engineer for TV & film in the UK for over 30 years. The debate over exotic interconnects is a constant source of amusement to those of us who make a living from plugging things together.

I would guess that over those 30 years I've pushed high quality audio at all kinds of levels through enough cable to reach to the Moon.

After some recent discussion on a professional UK bulletin board about the same subject of loudspeaker cables, I posted the following spoof review. Allow me to share it with you all:

Lawnmower cable is definitely the latest fashion in this area.

Very affordable, easily picked out from other signal cables by it's orange colour, and plenty of copper in it too!

True audiophiles always install USED lawnmower cable, but the finest results come from households where the lawn has been mown continually in an East-West direction.

This has allowed the cable to cross as much of the Earth's magnetic field as possible, while carrying a fairly high AC current, producing a better molecular alignment within the cable structure.

The continual contact with damp ground also results in any damaging static being drained away from the plastic insulation, long before the cable's installation in top-end rigs.

Fanatics who have the luxury of a dedicated listening room may wish to preserve the organic integrity of the cable, by running a line of planters or window-boxes around the skirting board as cable supports, filling them with naturally derived compost, and planting a mix of high quality grass seed. Naturally the boxes should be bonded to Earth, through a grounding spike.

For systems running less than 25 watts per channel, a seed mix suitable for croquet lawns would be ideal, using a varied mix of around 95% fescue varieties, with the remainder being Highland Browntop Bent. Owners of higher power systems should substitute the finer fescues with Perennial Ryegrass, in a ratio of 1% per watt, up to a maximum of 45%. This approximates to playing-field quality turf, necessary to withstand the higher wear incurred by the current flowing in the cable. High-frequency phasing errors can be eliminated by a regular light application of "Weed & Feed", and immediate action should be taken if moss appears in the more shaded corners, a primary cause of damping factor anomalies.

Much debate is taking place as to which type of mini-lawnmower should be used to keep the turf at the recommended 20mm height. Traditionalists favour the Class A double triode cylinder, with heavy roller, while the modern digital brigade would only ever contemplate the switched-mode Class D rotary, with laser height control. Users should decide for themselves.

Enjoy!

HBombToo

Henry Navaroli
Monday, December 01, 2003 - 03:06 pm

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I am quoting from a message posted by

Confused
Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 11:54 pm

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Its funny how this cable confusion only occurs in the consumer audio world. I wonder if RF engineers designing satellite defense systems find cables to be so mysterious when they design transmitters and antennas operating in the GHz frequency spectrum.

---

I have been an RF Engineer working in the wireless industry for over 10 years and prior to that in defense as a high power tube engineer. That said, I have always been very critical regarding the specifications, parts, materials and installation techniques in antenna subsystems. The specifications are the first and most important consideration when considering which cable/connector or antenna to purchase. Often times though the better the specification subsystems are not always the best for procurement due to additional problems presented in installation techniques. Also 900 mHz systems are less prone to Return Loss(VSWR) issues than that of the 2 gHz systems plus are less lossy and this is well governed in the specs. Return Loss and Insertion Loss are well documented concepts and each and every part I purchase for the implementation is scrutinized down to the very last specification including phase velocity. Long story short, "Confused", is that there is not much confusion on the RF Engineering side of the house.

"Now let the confusion begin ;>)"

I consider myself a rookie/hobbiest in the audiophile community and hope not to offend any persons by my comments here but what I find most disrespectfull from the audio cable manufactures are the continued subjective claims regarding their cables without any test measure and diagnostics in support of the claims. It would be nice to review the R, L and C of each cable prior to purchase so I could establish a baseline. Since I am very ignorant in the world of music and have the vocabulary and stunted writing skills of an engineer it would be nice to put some numbers to terms such as harsh, bright, warm or open. If specifications are plenty for speakers and power amps then why is this not extended to the cables? Are they not an integral part of our systems? I think that consumers would be better served if fact with conjecture were provided so that when we buy a certain product we know what were getting when we hear certain things. With the money we are talking about on some cable types perhaps the FTC should become involved but this is for a different topic.

BTW, I am in the same camp as Mr Mattucci regarding Pizza and Ice Cream but I'll also add Beer to that catagory. :>)

Great dialog here guys and thanks to the Polk Audio Forum for bringing it forward. Many flames there regarding cable also.

Regards
HBombToo

dcarlson

That thread is just to long for my short attention span but this seems to be the best advice I read. Quoted from Patrick Mattucci.

My advice to anyone who reads these posts is to take what Mr. DeSala and myself are saying with a grain of salt. Listen for yourself, and if you like what you hear, then get the best deal you can on that wire you prefer and use it. You'll only be sorry if you're easily influenced by what those who claim to be authorities may say.

Loud & Clear

I am firmly in the camp of those who suggest that exotic interconnect and speaker wire companies are laughing at us all of the way to the bank. I'll happily lop my dong off before I drop a grand on a couple strands of wire. Sound material and construct over voodoo, all day and all about.

Frank Z

Originally posted by Loud & Clear
I'll happily lop my dong off before I drop a grand on a couple strands of wire.

While I agree with your opinion, I cannot in good conscious loop off Mr. Happy. If a choice must be made, I'll buy the damn wire! :eek:

dcarlson

Ok, so what's the most you would spend on one set of interconnects? One set of Speaker wire? One Power cord?

What's the most expensive of each that you've listened to?

mantis

Look,
the real deal about wire is you get what you pay for.

Most people put down good high quality wire as they can't justify the purchase.All fine and dandy.

My outlook on wire is this......I have tried and heard just about every kind of wire under the sun.Being in the bussiness exposes me to it if I want to or not.There are many good high quality cables on the market and there are some that flat out suck ****.Funny how some companies strive to be better then Monster.....Monster maybe the Industry standard but can be out performed by many.

The real key is finding the correct level and quality cable for the system.Matching is key.

Brand names I truely trust is
Monster
Kimber
Transparent

There are others but these are my personal 3.Nordost makes killer sounding cables or lack there of if you know what I mean.

AR wire are most low end wire sucks.Sounds terrible and robs your system of it's max performance.

Now custom made cables using Beldon or Liberity are very good high quality cable to a point.RG59sd isn't designed to carry audio analog signals.There made for digital and video signals.

Same goes with cat5e.

Look the bottom line is this,use a cable correctly and you can't go wrong.Use the incorrect cable designed for other uses and suffer your system will.Think before you buy.

Your choice......mine alone.

Mantis

dcarlson,
to answer your question......it's not about the amount of money spent rather the correct money spent on the given system.

I have spent 300 plus on single cables.200 on 1m interconnects,As soon as the theater is finished being built,crazy cash is going out to Kimber on speaker wire.Almost ashamed to tell how much there speaker wire is going to cost me.......The whole system will be wired in 8tc 8tc bi wire...sick

dorokusai

MIT should also be added to that list, IMO. Transparent, probably wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for the relationship with Bruce Brisson....and eventual creative differences.

They have simlar theories in cable application for network harmonics, and they look surpisingly similar when broken up. Transparents designs have been partially fathered by MIT, as I see it.

Frank Z

Hbomb nails it!!

......but what I find most disrespectfull from the audio cable manufactures are the continued subjective claims regarding their cables without any test measure and diagnostics in support of the claims.

You are the MAN!!! Show me the documented proof from an indepentant, reputable lab and then I'll believe!

Far be it for me to tell anyone that they cannot hear a difference. If they can, cool. But, subjective comments/opinions are not going to make a believer out of anyone. I need it in black and white.

If your ears perceive a better sound from $5/ft than from $.44/ft wire, that's great. But does that mean that the guy that doesn't hear a difference is deaf, or stupid, or ignorant. Nope. It just means that he hears perfectly fine and has a bit more coin left in his pocket. Perhaps he'll spend it on a loin cloth and chicken feathers for his nightly DVD- Vodoo-Dodoo ceremony.

dcarlson

The reason I asked how much was to get an idea of what higher end and exotic cables we're talking about. I would agree that price shouldn't come into play but unfortunately in some cases it does and you do usually get what you pay. It's more about finding the right cables for your liking and mating with your system regardless of the cost high or low.

Of course I'm not talking about the truly IMO expensive Kimber Selects and Cardas Golden Reference type cables but I don't discount their potential benefits because I've never heard them.

I'm talking a more personally reasonable price in the $200-$500 for any single pair of speaker wire, I/C or power cord and although I haven't spent that much yet, it is just about my limit and my components would definetly benefit from that calibre of cabling. I've already experienced some fabulous results with the Hero's, Cardas Cross power cord and Kimber 4vs speaker wire.

dcarlson

Originally posted by Frank Z
Hbomb nails it!!



You are the MAN!!! Show me the documented proof from an indepentant, reputable lab and then I'll believe!

Far be it for me to tell anyone that they cannot hear a difference. If they can, cool. But, subjective comments/opinions are not going to make a believer out of anyone. I need it in black and white.

If your ears perceive a better sound from $5/ft than from $.44/ft wire, that's great. But does that mean that the guy that doesn't hear a difference is deaf, or stupid, or ignorant. Nope. It just means that he hears perfectly fine and has a bit more coin left in his pocket. Perhaps he'll spend it on a loin cloth and chicken feathers for his nightly DVD- Vodoo-Dodoo ceremony.

That's fine, but don't tell me that I've never experienced a benefit from the addition a cable to my system. If you haven't heard a difference that's fine too and you have the right to your opinion. If someone else does hear a difference you can't say they didn't either. I'm not electronics engineer and I don't need stats to prove there's a difference, I let my ears be the judge. That's just me and I'll defend my opinions as such.

Frank Z

Originally posted by dcarlson
That's fine, but don't tell me that I've never experienced a benefit from the addition a cable to my system.

Not a problem, As I stated if you hear it, cool! That means you spent your money, your way, and you benefited.

dorokusai

I have also experienced a sonic improvement in cables. It really only means something to me. If I could only have recorded the demo that F1 and I had, MC vs MIT, if was really neat.

F1nut

You know this is kinda ironic that we're having this wire discussion on the Polk forum because Polk started the whole high-end speaker cable thing with it's introduction of a speaker cable dubbed "The Amp Killer."

For those that don't believe wire does make a difference, I suggest that you walk into your local high-end shop, beg, borrow, whatever some high-end cable to demo in your home on your gear. I'm not talking about entry level stuff, get some good stuff. If you don't hear the difference then......well, I don't know how you wouldn't, but I'd respect that. At least you tried it.

I do agree it would be good for everyone to have a "standard measure" for cables like amps, etc. There is one problem with that though, specs really don't tell you how a piece of gear is going to perform or sound, you have to listen.

PhantomOG

specs really don't tell you how a piece of gear is going to perform or sound, you have to listen.

true, but they do effect the way it is going to sound. for there to be a noticeable difference in the "sound" of two different cables there HAS to be a difference in some part of the construction of the cable. this difference needs to be CLEARLY pointed out, tested and proven by a third party in order to gain respect from more people. coming up with mumbo jumbo marketing terms and just saying it sounds better doesn't help the crowd that needs PROOF.

does anyone else see something analogous between "exotic" cables vs. regular cables and "Bose speakers" vs. other speakers? Almost everyone on here would bash Bose all day long for not listing specs, coming up with BS marketing terminology, and charging exorbitant prices. And yet, exotic cable companies do the same thing and are vigorously defended.

Just for the record, I have never used exotic or even somewhat expensive cables so I cannot say that they do not make a difference. I'm not saying the people who like expensive cables are wrong. Whatever floats your boat. All I'm saying is I personally will not believe marketing based solely on SUBJECTIVE reviews. I'm going to need listed FACTS explaining why cable A is better than cable B.

dcarlson

I'll reiterate what F1 said. Do yourself a favor and go to your local shop an see if you can borrow 3 or so interconnect cables at difference price points and have a shootout.

Do you buy a vehicle based on it's specs or do you test drive a few and decide for yourself?

PhantomOG

trying out expensive cables is definitely on my list of things to do. although, upgrading everything else does have priority for me.

funny you mention the car. i bought a WRX about two years ago. why? because of a simple formula based on HARD FACTS. It had the most horsepower for the least about of $$.

but for other people there tons of other HARD FACTS which determine their car purchase. CD player, power locks/seats/windows, size, gas mileage, warranty length, crash test ratings and about a hundred other SPECS which can be detailed out and in most cases easily PROVEN.

Now unfotunatelly with cars the "looks" also does play into a huge factor of the decision making process. But let's face it, you will have to look at the car everytime you drive it and other people will as well. I don't know about you but I don't want to see my cables and I don't want other people to see them either, so looks are not really a factor.

but this is more about a person's fundamental philosophy in what makes them happy. if only being able to tell something is better purely through subjective "seat of the pants" type testing makes you happy with purchases, then that is fine.

I personally need more than that. When I buy sheets, I look at the thread count. When I buy a car, I look at the horsepower. When I put together a computer, I look at the various SPECS of the components. I'm the type of person that needs to know exactly WHY something is better, I won't be happy just "thinking" its better, especially when the "better" item costs ALOT more.

fair enough?

dcarlson

Fair enough.

Thread count eh?

It may not be the best comparison but all meant was the actual test drive but I guess it's not relevant if you buy a car without test driving a few.

When I bought my car, I made a short list of cars based on looks, specs and price. Test drove each of them, then decided based on which I liked the most and what was most affordable for me. Specs weren't the be all in my decision making. I guess I'm just more of a test em out and see type of guy.

Depending on the of level of equipment you have, upgrading cables can be a relatively cheaper way of extending the life of your current equipment rather than actually replacing a component. I've put my speaker upgrade off because of the gains I've obtained from power cords. I was very close to forking out a few grand CDN on new speakers and was auditioning some but was happy spending $300CDN on a new power cord for my integrated when it yeilded some great results. Again I tried out a few before making my final decision. It's all about matching with your system.

I mean absolutely no disrespect when I say this and I say this to all who read this: If you've never had the opportunity to audition higher end cables, give it shot, come back and I'll be more than happy to discuss the results, good or bad.

PhantomOG

i'm sure everyone in their right mind test drives cars before making a purchase. but even the way a car "feels" or "handles" can be attributed to very distinct properties of the car's suspension and frame, even tires.

i can see how power cords/conditioners have an effect on the performance of audio components. the power supply current and voltage affects electrical components behaviour and that is definitely something i should probably try out since I'm using all manufacturer power cords and cheapy surge protectors. what I would need to "prove" to myself with these types of products would be that the power I had before was unstable/unclean.

i guess i've just always been the inquisitive type. there's nothing i hate more than being in a discussion with someone about products and their only defense is "it JUST IS better", without having any clue as to why. my roommate is a Sony fanatic and will defend every Sony product to the death, but he is an idiot when it comes to the details and it drives me crazy. "The Sony is better, just BECAUSE... its Sony it has to be better.

also, being an electrical engineer, i just can't fathom there being a truly economically worthwhile benefit from a $100 cable to a $10,000 cable. with THAT much money you could easily manufacture any kind of cable you want with any kind of exotic materials. its just a cable.. know what i mean??

dcarlson

Trust me, I used to be a skeptic.

Loud & Clear

Good stuff, Phantom. Indeed, it is just a cable, just conductive wire. Then again, maybe if you cut into the jacket on some of that exotic wire, Beethoven will yelp, jump out and run away.

Hell, I think I might start my own line of exotic interconnect and speaker wire. I'll call it "Homeopathic Conductors." My cables will help peoples to find their 'center.' All my wire is guaranteed to be hand dipped in, and blessed with raspberry leaves, black haw root bark, squaw vine leaves, blessed thistle herb, black cohosh rhizome, lobelia herb, dandelion root, milk thistle seed, barberry root, yarrow herb, and culver's root.

My cables will start at a grand and move up in price, not based on cable length, but on how long I lovingly massaged the jacketing with my various herbs and twigs.

dcarlson

My question still stands Loud & Clear...... What, if anything, have you tried?

Loud & Clear

Originally posted by dcarlson
My question still stands Loud & Clear...... What, if anything, have you tried?

I use an $80 Clarity Lab interconnect to connect my CD player to my integrated amp. It's silver plated, solid copper signal transfer wire. Probably overkill, considering it's just a meter of transfer wire.

I'm just running my mouth, but I hope that people who buy $1000 dollar interconnect also invest that type of money with the wire inside their electronics. Does that make sense, or does that particular stage of the signal transer trump all others?

No harm meant, just having a giggle.

dcarlson

No harm, just trying to get a feel for how high end we're talking about here.

I'm sure the law of deminishing returns does come into play.

F1nut

If you haven't tried it don't knock it. Remember that one???

Actually, L&C, the IC is more important than the speaker wire. Does the CL sound better than what you had before?

When you get to a certain point it becomes a matter of baby steps, but little by little the sound improves and pretty soon you're running.

F1nut

This guy took a step.....http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1070400213&2&3&4&

Emlyn

At times, (and I am not one I don't think) being an audiophile is a painful experience, constantly changing and never sure or satisfied to leave it be?....I will for now accept I have made a major upgrade to my system, with these cables that sound so natural and sweet.

Talk about a painful step! The 10 meter pair of PS Audio speaker cables he seems to be talking about cost something like $1900 even with a 40 percent discount.

Always willing to try new things and now that I have a consistent base line for interconnects since they are all the same, I will be trying a pair of Kimber Hero interconnects to see if I can tell a difference between those and much the less expensive Blue Jeans interconnects. If they don't appear to do anything, they'll go back at the end of the 30 day trial period.

dcarlson

Great choice... and a pretty good value in my mind.

Frank Z

While a I agree with the "Try it, you might like it" approach, taking some wire out for a "Road Test" is always practical. Not every shop across the country is going to let anyone take home a set of cables to try out in their own home. You guys know the drill, most shops want you to pay for it up front and then return it, which is all well and good if they have a 100% refund policy and don't treat you like vermin when you bring back a few hundred or thousand dollars worth of cables. The salesmen are going to lose their commision and that doesn't sit well with most folks. At least with electronics or speakers they still have a chance at selling you a different piece of equipment. Keep in mind that not everyone can afford to let a fist full of coin sit in someone else's cash drawer for a few days or weeks.

To use the car analogy, no way should anyone purchase a car without doing some home work first. Just because it looks good on the road does not mean it's right for you.

I'd be more apt to try out some hi-dollar wire if the written proof was there. As I said earlier, from and independant, reputable source, not from the manufacturer. I wouldn't buy a car based on what the manufacturer claims, instead I seek out other sources of information about the car I'm interested in. Flowery crap like "Mid's are more Mid-ish with a slight orange peel texture" just don't cut it for me.

I didn't post the original link to start a Battle Royal, I posted it because I offered some very good info that some of you may find usefull, or you may think it's all BS.

I would like to say that I do use Accoustic Reseach Interconnects and Home Depot speaker wire and get fantastic results. No I have not tried anything more exotic than Monster brand wire or interconnects. The Monster cables did not outperform the AR cables or visa versa. On my equipment, in my house, there is absolutely no audible or visual difference.


For those that insist that they can hear an improvement and think that all of us disbelievers need to try some more expensive cable/wires, I wonder if you would be willing to do a blind A/B comparison with your expensive wire against some low-end (AR or other brand) and be willing to admit it if they couldn't tell the difference between the two?


In the end it really doesn't matter if you believe or not, what matters is that you get the maximum amount of enjoyment out of your gear, regardless of the amount of money spent. One man's A/V Vodoo is another mans A/V Holy Grail.

If I pissed anyone off, that was not my intent.