RTi A7 in HT setup perfomance problems

EndersShadow

rebuy wrote: »

Then please enlighten me why his Onkyo is far superior to mine as far as the amps go.

Your original comment was NOT a comment about amps, it was overly broad about onkyo v. HK. And heck even R-50's v. RTi's

rebuy wrote: »

Ditch the Onkyo, I have the 608 and it sucks for music. I will be changing to a H-K or better with in a month or so.
This is the second Onkyo I have had and will never buy another one. I have RTI bookies and can't get them to sound right because of the Onkyo quality. My last set of R50's sounded better with a H-K than the Onkyo-RTI setup.

Please tell me where in that statement you use the words "amp section" at all? So my comment was that his 709 model had much more overall stuff/features that made it better than your 608. Also note your comment is about some R-50's on the HK, not the RTi's you used on the Onkyo, so even there you didnt do an apples to apples comparision.

EndersShadow wrote: »

The Onkyo he's got is a BIG leap over your 608 so its not a fair comparison. For instance he's got pre-outs, you dont so if it does end up being a power issue (still not convinced it is) he can augment it easy.

Given your comment about the HK v. Onkyo my thought would be you may be commenting more on the amp section and less on the AVR's features as HK's are known to be more realistic about their wattage listings.

So my response to your comment was about 2 things:

1. That his 709 had more features/stuff than your 608
2. The amp sections differences between the Onkyo and HK's amp sections.

I can say my beats by dre sounded GREAT on my Audio NFB-5 and then my Klipsh earbuds sounded SOOO much better on my iPhone. Those statements are not fair comparisons.

gfong

apoteker wrote: »

Well, I made the changes suggested and changed L,C,R, and surrounds to 80Hz but left the rear surrounds at 100Hz. LFE was set at 120Hz so I left that as is and......still underwhelmed.

Seriously forget about meters and other amps, and whatever else...... until you turn the speaker levels up in your AVR you will not get the sound you are looking for or even have a level playing field to judge your system.

Here is why in my own words. Lets say my avr speaker level is set at 0 and yours is set at -9.5 for your front speakers. We have the same AVR and we both turn them up to -20. Mine is a lot fuller and louder and my AVR does not have to work as hard as yours becasue I am not restricting the signal or cutting it back. To get the same sound as you I could possibly turn my master volume down to -38 and get the same volume as you. When you crank the volume up on your AVR with the current settings you will really have to crank it up to get a good sound from your speakers, but now it is pushing the amp as it has to compensate for the -9.5 reductions in signal that your turned the speakers down to in the settings.

New topic (lol)
Speaker volume settings: They are there to set each speaker independantly of each other so that each speaker can output the same volume at reference level to where you the listener is sitting. So if I have my front left speaker 10 ft away and it is at 0 in the speaker level and I have the right speaker 5 ft away from me, the speaker level would be lower and may get set at -9.5. If I set them both at 0 the right speaker would overpower the left. That is why we use a spl meter to measure the signal with. In most instances the speaker levels are only 1 to .5 off of each other including the center speaker. The rears can be dumbed down a lot depending on placement and speaker config. With your A6's the are di/bi and depends where you set them at as the sound can either go straight forward, to the side or both.

Audussey and other like internal devices adjust the settings to what it hears and sometimes like I think in your case, it sets the levels way to low.

You could hurt your speakers worse by running them at -6 and -9 with the volume up more then you would running them at 0 or more using a lower master volume setting.

Seriously, play around with your stuff, your not going to hurt it. I am sure you can tell when a speaker is getting too much master volume before it breaks!
As mentioned, your AVR is fine for the system you have, it is not a piece of crap. The point of using 80hz as a starting point is so that your AVR can use its power for all the speakers and not have to worry about the bass. If set to 60 or lower the amp now has to push lower freq to all speakers set at 60 or lower and the sub will just sit there and go, hmmmm why am I not getting this signal, that is what I am here for!

I had the 7's/csi 6 and have the fx6's and I crossed them at 80hz and let the sub do all the bass work. Even without an external amp my AVR pushed the speakers fine.

Dont confuse speaker levels with crossover levels.
Speaker level settings allow the AVR to give more or less power to a speaker. Crossover settings tell the AVR what range of frequencies to send to each speaker.

I know I wrote lots of verbal diahrea here but it is sound information that I have gathered over my 50 years of existance! You can try it or you can not, your call. Have fun with your gear and mess around with the settings until you are happy with the sound, you have the proper gear to make some great sound, just gotta figure out the settings!

Just wanted to add that I said forget about meters, they are one of the most important tools to have to get your settings correct. I just meant that you have to figure out what you have first before going out and buying/selling other amps or anything else. Like I mentioned your system is sound and should work great.

rebuy

Features are dandy things to put in a receiver but if the amps blow, it's a mute point.
To me, The sound of the unit superceeds any features, that's why some of you choose seperates.
Maybe I'm not comparing A's to A's on the RTI and R series but the fact remains when played
through a H-K, the R's sounded better than RTI's through this Onkyo.
The synergy, to me, was a lot better and that is why I'm unhappy with this unit.
As far as power goes between the two units, it's 10 watts according to Onkyo.
I'm sure both amps have the darlington triple inverters and other fine quality Onkyo features
that are found in Integra products.
So outside of fancy, internet connections that are worthless if the amps don't sound right,
I'll have to stick to my statement. I'm sorry I have to lay it out like this and make every little
point crystal clear but we are taking about the reproduction of music and not features.
The OP doesn't like the "sound" and neither do I.

Now that I have your attention and you know that I'm going to go a different receiver route,
in Your Opinion, do you think a mid range Yammie will sound as good as a H-K with Polks, or what other
brands have the synergy to work best? Thanks for your comments.
Remember I have bookies and don't need seperates just good Quality for the money.
Hope this helps the OP too.

EndersShadow

^I am not going to bite, I will just shut my mouth on this topic with you as we are now going to get into a your ears preferences v. mine. I hope you find whatever sonic bliss it is you seek using whatever gear you decide.

To the OP, you have my contact into, give me a call if you want to talk, I don't want to muddy up your thread anymore than I already did.

rebuy

I don't know what that means "Bite". I was just asking your honest opinion and have no other motive than to seriously consider what you said about quality in a "decent receiver". I was hope your knowledge of products I'm not too familiar with would have helped me shop around but you seem to think I have some hostile intent which is way off the mark.
I'll ask someone else who is more people oriented.

F1nut

apoteker wrote: »

So, should I try to up the volume to around -15db to see if that makes a difference?

Try turning it up one level at a time. You'll be able to tell when you've gone too far as the sound will become grainy/harsh. When you hear that, turn it down quickly.

Also, would you recommend leaving the speaker trim levels where Audyssey set them or adjusting those as well? They remained the same after I reran Audyssey yesterday.

Audyssey is used to get the levels adjusted "in the ballpark", final tuning should be done by ear.

cfrizz

Hi Rebuy.

My feeling on this is Power = Amp and vice versus. As someone else pointed out, the fact that the OP has an Onkyo that has preouts is what gives him the advantage because he can (and I personally believe he should) add a separate amplifier. You don't have that option.

Once I added a Parasound 1500A amp to my system, I discovered what my by then 15 year old RTA-8T were truly capable of when given all the power that they can handle. It was an eye and ear opening experience. One that taught me that I will NEVER let any receiver power any of my speakers by itself.

So my suggestion to you is when you do upgrade your receiver, get one that has all the bells and whistles that you want it to have and make sure it has preouts so that you can add an amplifier later on.

To the OP, I love your HT room! You should reset your receiver so that all speakers are set to 80hz and let the sub handle the bass. Get the center up off of the floor, and start looking for a 5-7 channel of at least 200wpc @ 8ohms. All speakers benefit from more power not just the fronts. You can use the amp through all other upgrades to your system and be confident that your speakers are operating to their full potential now and in the future.

Take Ender up on his offer to come over and help you tweak your system. You have obviously invested a lot of time and money into your system, you should do whatever it takes to get the best out of it.

Thorton

Apoteker, you've got a great system going so hang in there. I believe the suggestions made by Enders, tonyb, F1, gfong and others should get you pointed in the right direction. I'm not an Audyssey expert but I'd investigate your speaker levels like gfong states and I agree with the XO setting and toe-in recommendations. The A7's like power, however with your room size (great HT room set-up BTW), the AVR your using and the correct settings; I believe you will be pleased with your purchase and HT room. And yes adding an amp will be an improvement but I think you'll be happy with the system you have when everything is set-up properly. Before my amp I was running a similar system (see sig below) in a much larger room and the results were very good. Hang in there, when I have people over to watch a movie they're just amazed.

apoteker

Busy weekend, didn't have much time to play in the theater. Added a second row of seating for the riser and did some quick adjustments per everyone's suggestions. Got the center off of the floor and on to a stand, reduced the toe in of the mains, and most importantly set the trim on all of the speakers to 0db except for the sub. I left it at the +1.5db that Audyssey had set. I popped in a movie and.....much better! I had the volume set at -15db and it was what I had initially expected it to sound like. I didn't have a chance to get with EndersShadow as I had hoped (sent you a PM) but looking forward to it if he is still game. I've attached some new pix if anyone is interested. Thanks again to everyone who has replied to this post! Your advice has been very helpful and appreciated!

EndersShadow

^I would still suggest flipping your center so the angled side is pointing up and using this thread (link here), make yourself some custom isolation for it so that it stays that way. With your current config, folks in the rear will get lots of the dialog blocked by folks in the front.

I responded to your PM

pdxfj

Another option for the isolation wedges..

http://www.foambymail.com/MIW/monitor-isolation-wedge.html

Be sure to take up Enders on is offer to help set things up. I think you'll be amazed what a trained ear can do. Nice looking room!

EndersShadow

pdxfj wrote: »

Be sure to take up Enders on is offer to help set things up. I think you'll be amazed what a trained ear can do.

We are trying to see if we can meet, problem is right now my time is EXTREMELY limited with the baby coming. I haven't even gotten to go check out my buddies new place yet (with his like 4k dedicated HT room) and have 1 free Saturday in probably the next couple months so hoping we can figure something out.

ravaneli

nice looking room. I would try to lift the center a little bit more instead of angling it up.

Geoff4rfc

apoteker, check out the review on your a7 here; http://hometheaterreview.com/polk-rti-a7-floorstanding-loudspeakers-reviewed/

The recommdation is to have the speaker away from the wall for best performance

EndersShadow

bump

Hoping for a progress report. Also have a suggestion for a 2 channel amp thats localish for your RTi A7's if you still want to give that a shot.....

Geoff4rfc

EndersShadow wrote: »

bump

Hoping for a progress report. Also have a suggestion for a 2 channel amp thats localish for your RTi A7's if you still want to give that a shot.....

+1 how about some news?

After looking at both sets of photos, maybe try pulling those A7's about a foot off the wall and a little closer to the screen and toe them in just a tad, maybe half the distance as before.

gp4jesus

Quoting F1nut's toe in suggestion:
"You want the toe-in adjusted so that you can just see the inside panel of each A7 from your sweet spot." ...is spot on for my 'A7s. Maybe this will help: the tweets cross well behind the sweet spot. My Rear baffle: 1' from wall; outer side baffle: 3'
The closer you get your LCR's tweets on the same planes, the more fluid or transparent your soundscape.

On XO settings - 1/2 to one octave above f3 - or 80hz all around. About where others suggested you should start. Mine are as follows:
LR: 60
CC: 80 (CSi A6)
Surrounds: 100 (RTi A1)
That reply w/120 or 150 likely has modal issues that work in his favor.
My thoughts on power: w/a powered sub handling the system's most challenging part of the frequency spectrum, will lighten the need for your CC and ,to a lessor degree, your LR. BTW the A7's impedence droppes to 4 ohms below 125hz - (no HP filtering to the mid) upping the ante for more robust power.
How ever, as some have made clear, you will enjoy improved SQ w/higher QUALITY power on all channels regardless how you chose to deploy same. I'm a HUGE fan of separates*.

I'm on my smart phone over lunch so you may not see my sig w/system details.*

Enjoy, tony