The ugly and dangerous truth

adabro

tonyb - I'm not sure what you mean by this - "If we continue to tear down institutions that help in that, how can we expect anything different than what we see today ? Wouldn't at least some of you agree to that ?" What is being torn down? How would gun laws contribute to this?

mrbigbluelight - an admittedly lazy Google search seems to suggest that China has much lower gun deaths statistically the most countries?

read-alot

cowtrimmer wrote: »

When you start down the slippery slope of denying rights to others its a battle to not slip and fall because eventually someone is waiting to relieve you of rights that they might deem as not practical.

Well spoken

nooshinjohn

adabro wrote: »

tonyb - I'm not sure what you mean by this - "If we continue to tear down institutions that help in that, how can we expect anything different than what we see today ? Wouldn't at least some of you agree to that ?" What is being torn down? How would gun laws contribute to this?

mrbigbluelight - an admittedly lazy Google search seems to suggest that China has much lower gun deaths statistically the most countries?

And we should be more like china... why? The people of every third world dictatorship and banana republic wishes the could BE us! That is why they foment hatred of us in their people. It as far easier to tear down than to build up, especially if it means you also loose control. The right to keep and bear arms and liberty are codependent upon each other. Loose that right and the government can take everything else with zero resistance. You trust the very people meeting in Washington behind closed doors at this very moment trying to decide how much money they can take from us this time to guarantee your life, liberty, and your Pursuit of happiness??? No thanks.

brgman

nooshinjohn wrote: »

And we should be more like china... why? The people of every third world dictatorship and banana republic wishes the could BE us! That is why they foment hatred of us in their people. It as far easier to tear down than to build up, especially if it means you also loose control. The right to keep and bear arms and liberty are codependent upon each other. Loose that right and the government can take everything else with zero resistance. You trust the very people meeting in Washington behind closed doors at this very moment trying to decide how much money they can take from us this time to guarantee your life, liberty, and your Pursuit of happiness??? No thanks.

AMEN!
Last time i checked the immigration problem was with the ones coming in not trying to get out.

codyc1ark

nooshinjohn wrote: »

And we should be more like china... why? The people of every third world dictatorship and banana republic wishes the could BE us! That is why they foment hatred of us in their people. It as far easier to tear down than to build up, especially if it means you also loose control. The right to keep and bear arms and liberty are codependent upon each other. Loose that right and the government can take everything else with zero resistance. You trust the very people meeting in Washington behind closed doors at this very moment trying to decide how much money they can take from us this time to guarantee your life, liberty, and your Pursuit of happiness??? No thanks.

John, what do you think your AR is going to do against a Blackhawk? Or for that matter a tank. I can't buy into the argument that we need our guns to protect from the government, we would be defenseless. For that matter, I believe I said it in an earlier post, but do you really believe that the gov could force our all volunteer army to kill their own friends and families on US soil? I don't think so, if ever got to that point, as crazy as it sounds, our leaders doing the ordering would have a mess on their hands in controlling our forces.

I understand the second when it was wrote. At that time it is reasonable to believe a citizen militia force could take arms and control of something. Today, well, I believe that they would be looked upon as those "nut jobs" cnh mentioned and squashed.

Systems

codyc1ark wrote: »

John, what do you think your AR is going to do against a Blackhawk? Or for that matter a tank. I can't buy into the argument that we need our guns to protect from the government, we would be defenseless. For that matter, I believe I said it in an earlier post, but do you really believe that the gov could force our all volunteer army to kill their own friends and families on US soil? I don't think so, if ever got to that point, as crazy as it sounds, our leaders doing the ordering would have a mess on their hands in controlling our forces.

I understand the second when it was wrote. At that time it is reasonable to believe a citizen militia force could take arms and control of something. Today, well, I believe that they would be looked upon as those "nut jobs" cnh mentioned and squashed.

The last thing you would want to do is give up, lay down your rights and succumb.
My thoughts are you will need those rights now, more than ever.
Read the news much?

Plus you have a Camel to support Cody, think about it!:cheesygrin:

nooshinjohn

codyc1ark wrote: »

John, what do you think your AR is going to do against a Blackhawk? Or for that matter a tank. I can't buy into the argument that we need our guns to protect from the government, we would be defenseless. For that matter, I believe I said it in an earlier post, but do you really believe that the gov could force our all volunteer army to kill their own friends and families on US soil? I don't think so, if ever got to that point, as crazy as it sounds, our leaders doing the ordering would have a mess on their hands in controlling our forces.

I understand the second when it was wrote. At that time it is reasonable to believe a citizen militia force could take arms and control of something. Today, well, I believe that they would be looked upon as those "nut jobs" cnh mentioned and squashed.

In 1994, u.s. armed forces(and several times since) were given a survey by the government that, in part, asked them if they would be wiling to open fire on American citizens as part of a U.N. force or even as part of a peacekeeping deployment. This scenario takes place not in Kandahar province, but fight here at home. The military has been "war-gaming" multiple scenarios in recent years due to what they see as an impending socio-economic collapse.
http://thenewalexandrialibrary.com/armysurvey.html

The questions found in this document are truly terrifying when you consider who was asking the questions and of whom they were being asked.
If they can come into anywhere USA with their guns, you can bet your **** they are not coming to help. Until several recent executive orders(need to do mhttp://thenewalexandrialibrary.com/armysurvey.htmly homework on them). It was illegal under the constitution to allow for the use of American troops on us soil under any circumstance. Like I said before, if I choose an M60 as my weapon of choice... so be it. As long as I follow the law, there is zero reason for anyone to care what I have for an arsenal. If it ever gets ugly it will be the namby-pamby knocking on my door looking for those that have a weapon to protec them.

Syndil

cnh wrote: »

So what I wish to see is a "convincing" argument for being able to fire lots and lots of rounds, other than one which is rooted in paranoia of the state collapsing or going Fascist! Because, you know, those of us on the other side most fear those of "you" who are too welll armed in that case. Running around and playing Rambo. lol

adabro wrote: »

Play the odds ? the chance of the American govt turning on you, the army turning on you, or a zombie apocalypse is very low. The chance of another mass killing under the current rules is 100%.

America is a great country ? it would still be even without all the guns?.

True, it is hard to imagine today a scenario in which we would rise up against our government and overthrow it with violence. We are all relatively comfortable in our lives, and the suggestion of such a thing happening does seem to be a bit extremist from our current point of view.

The self-described "militias" full of Rambo wannabes, just itching for a zombie apocalypse or any other excuse to use their massive amounts of guns "for reals" are also a bit extremist.

However, it's too easy to look at the extremists, roll your eyes, and declare that no one needs that many guns or those types of guns. Perhaps we don't--not now, anyway. But will we ever? If we ban those guns now, you are indeed betting the odds that we won't, as adabro is obviously willing to do.

The founding fathers obviously did not share that optimism. Had they not rebelled against their own government (the British one) and fought for their independence with force of violence, the USA would not exist--we would still be a British colony or territory. Or if we had failed in our rebellion against the British, the signers of the Declaration of Independence would have all been rounded up and hanged as traitors. This country was founded by radicals who were wiling to risk their lives just for the opportunity to fight for their freedom, with no guarantee that they would live through the fight or come through it victorious. Failure meant death; success might have still meant death.

Thus the Constitution was carefully written with a system of checks and balances, in order to insure that the US gov't would never become oppressive, at least as long as the Constitution was followed. The last and final check provided is the 2nd amendment, which provides the means for the people to overthrow the government should it fail to adhere to the Constitution and become oppressive to the people. Again, remember that the oath one takes when swearing into military service requires that they swear to defend the Constitution of the US, (not the US itself), against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

So is all of this now just idealogical fodder? Is the Constitution really an outdated document that no longer applies to the times? Some obviously think so. I disagree strongly. We may all be fat, dumb and happy Americans with our cable TV and our Internet and our Nascar (or whatever) for the moment, but while I'm not going to go sign up for a militia and start preparing for a zombie apocalypse, I certainly am not going to go all in and bet that things are guaranteed to be this rosy forever.

We live in a time where we are so far removed from the sacrifices that were made at the beginning of our nation's history that it is difficult for some to imagine what it must have been like, and difficult to imagine that such sacrifices might have to be made again. But to shrug off the possibility entirely and give up the right to defend yourselves against oppression... That is not a bet I am willing to take. I am not paranoid, but I'm no fool either. To willingly give up our gun rights, thinking we will never need them again, and thinking that doing so will somehow prevent crazy people from doing harm--that all seems equally as foolish as those running around playing Rambo to me.

Systems

Just a matter of timing from history lessons.
Not saying it will happen, and knowing it has not happened here (or has it?) in the past, but coup d'etat go back thousands of years.
Something NO ONE can deny.

You can bet every US administration has/had a plan for it.

sucks2beme

To be blunt, the best reason to own a gun is to protect myself from the freaks with guns.
Why does every paranoid drooling bubba need 30 or 40 guns? One or two is about all you
can use at one time. And they always have one on their person, one in the truck,
one under the pillow, one by the tv, and one in the john. Because you never know
when the zombies might show up.

Systems

sucks2beme wrote: »

To be blunt, the best reason to own a gun is to protect myself from the freaks with guns.
Why does every paranoid drooling bubba need 30 or 40 guns? One or two is about all you
can use at one time. And they always have one on their person, one in the truck,
one under the pillow, one by the tv, and one in the john. Because you never know
when the zombies might show up.

Personally I took advantage of this crazy non-sense and sold alot of mine (top$) recently.
Kept the ones I could never let go, and now have more room in the safe, and more money in my pocket.

This "stockpile mentality" for end of days is a little crazy to say the least.

If I can't make do with what I have, I just a soon be one of the "casualties".

But then again I bought 500 Mayan "2013" calendars thinking they would be collector items!:cheesygrin:

Anyone need a good 2013 Calendar?

brgman

sucks2beme wrote: »

To be blunt, the best reason to own a gun is to protect myself from the freaks with guns.
Why does every paranoid drooling bubba need 30 or 40 guns? One or two is about all you
can use at one time. And they always have one on their person, one in the truck,
one under the pillow, one by the tv, and one in the john. Because you never know
when the zombies might show up.

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.
-Ghandi

cowtrimmer

And how good did that work for Ghandi ?

brgman

cowtrimmer wrote: »

And how good did that work for Ghandi ?

Obviously he needed an AR!

txcoastal1

First of all I would like to wish everyone a prosperous, family loving Happy New Year and yes, God Bless the USA.

2nd, I appreciate the conversion and opinions on both sides and thank the moderators, and contributors to this thread as a civil, no bashing/name calling with our fellow polkies, I think we all learned a little going both ways, and we all speak to as Americans.

Good luck and have safe New Year

Cheers
Ron

codyc1ark

brgman wrote: »

Obviously he needed an AR!

I loled! Very nice.

Systems

txcoastal1 wrote: »

First of all I would like to wish everyone a prosperous, family loving Happy New Year and yes, God Bless the USA.

2nd, I appreciate the conversion and opinions on both sides and thank the moderators, and contributors to this thread as a civil, no bashing/name calling with our fellow polkies, I think we all learned a little going both ways, and we all speak to as Americans.

Good luck and have safe New Year

Cheers
Ron

Very well said!
The mods have been more than generous.
Tough times, tough subject.
I would like to wish all the Best of the Year to Come also!
Thanks for being "You" and civil on such a touchy subject, shows some class for sure!

Polkersince85

Happy New Year to all (and maybe in '13 we can pull that amendment that gave wimmin the vote.):eek:

goofyGAguy

Polkersince85 wrote: »

(and maybe in '13 we can pull that amendment that gave wimmin the vote.):eek:

Been downhill ever since...

Systems

Been downhill ever since...

Wait till Cfrizz sees this.......I'M OUT!

L8R!

F1nut

brgman wrote: »

obviously he needed an AR!

BlueFox

It's almost New Years, so if going outside wear your helmet. One of the unexpected benefits of unrestricted firearms is bullets randomly falling from the sky. Fortunately, for as much as this happens, there seems to be little collateral damage.

tonyb

pepster wrote: »

Wait till Cfrizz sees this.......I'M OUT!

L8R!

Funny man, I saw the movie Lincoln the other day and the part where they go... " and whats next ? Giving women the right to vote ?" ....and the group of congressmen stood up with an even louder NOOOO !

There are certainly instances where amendments can enhance equality and freedoms as our society matures. Thats why that process is there. I'm one to believe that the more free a man is, the more he benefits from creating his own prosperity/wealth, and a higher standard of living. Once you start nickel and diming those freedoms away you limit that growth. Just my .02 is all.

I look at things from a more principal stance. Principals are hard to have and even harder to keep when clearly some benefit you and others may not. Once you inject emotion into them, you find yourself waivering on the very principals you previously stood on. We are by far anything but perfect creatures, we make mistakes and errors in judgement. Sometimes the same ones over and over again. The trick of course is to learn from them so as not to make the same mistakes again. Isn't that what we all teach our children ? Should we not take some of that medicine ourselves ? I say this only because it's easy to get pulled into emotionaly charged topics of our time, but either you stand for something or you stand for nothing. There's no wishy washy middle ground that changes with the wind. Thats reserved for politicians. You as an individual, should have some morals, principles, of which there is no waiver. If we can work on ourselves, our own families, and be that person we always wished we actually were, then the future would be brighter for all of us. Again, just my .02 and you may not share those thoughts but think about it. We are a nation of men and women, and it's the quality of those men and women that determine what society will look like.

tonyb

Since I pointed out earlier that society has lots of fears, it's based on those fears that people hord whatever. Maybe extreme yes, but hardly the standard quo for most gun owners. People also hord food, again a bit extreme but should food prices rise or become limited, should these horders become criminal ? There's extremes in everything, doesn't make it illegal though. I can also argue the need for police and government to have automatic firearms. Why would they need a weapon to kill mass amounts of people ? Shooters are usually individuals, one well placed bullet is all you need, ask any sniper. Being an extremist, while wacky even to me, is still ok in my book as long as your extreme tendencies don't hurt other people. Which I don't see happening. The other issues of mental capacity, parental responsability, school security, and used gun background checks are areas to be explored before looking to take away anyones rights.

wz2p7j

nooshinjohn wrote: »

And we should be more like china... why? The people of every third world dictatorship and banana republic wishes the could BE us! That is why they foment hatred of us in their people. It as far easier to tear down than to build up, especially if it means you also loose control. The right to keep and bear arms and liberty are codependent upon each other. Loose that right and the government can take everything else with zero resistance. You trust the very people meeting in Washington behind closed doors at this very moment trying to decide how much money they can take from us this time to guarantee your life, liberty, and your Pursuit of happiness??? No thanks.

So I'm supposed to trust a bunch of self described and anonymous militia men over my public, elected officials? No thanks.

Chris

wz2p7j

nooshinjohn wrote: »

And we should be more like china... why? The people of every third world dictatorship and banana republic wishes the could BE us! That is why they foment hatred of us in their people. It as far easier to tear down than to build up, especially if it means you also loose control. The right to keep and bear arms and liberty are codependent upon each other. Loose that right and the government can take everything else with zero resistance. You trust the very people meeting in Washington behind closed doors at this very moment trying to decide how much money they can take from us this time to guarantee your life, liberty, and your Pursuit of happiness??? No thanks.

So I'm supposed to trust a bunch of self described and anonymous militia men over my public, elected officials? No thanks.

Chris

goofyGAguy

wz2p7j wrote: »

So I'm supposed to trust a bunch of self described and anonymous militia men over my public, elected officials? No thanks.
Chris

I bet you were singing a different tune when Bush was da Prez.

wz2p7j

goofyGAguy wrote: »

I bet you were singing a different tune when Bush was da Prez.

Not sure I see your point. Didn't always agree with him but he was an official elected by the populace.

Chris

seabeerob213

metal detectors at the doors, an atoulock feature and a uniformed officer should be good, police presence is a good deterrant,

tonyb

seabeerob213 wrote: »

free healthcare for example, italy has terrible healthcare, private sector practices are required to give 80% of there profits to the govt, so dr.s take untraceable cash combined with/or favors, services and material possesions as payment, while the govt healthcare leaves you waiting, for a long time, for unreliable treatment they can or cant administer to you

I love ya man, but thats a whole nother ballgame, healthcare. If any of you care to see what your future holds on a government run plan......

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2255054/60-000-patients-death-pathway-told-minister-says-controversial-end-life-plan-fantastic.html

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