The ugly and dangerous truth

bmbguy

codyc1ark wrote: »

I guess what I'm trying to say is that this event has got the wheel spinning in gun control.

Agreed Cody, in that at least the media and gun control advocates are trying hard to get the wheel spinning. It will be interesting to see if they are able to gain any traction whatsoever though. Considering the huge portion of the population that already owns firearms, this might be one area where Americans dig their heels in. We'll see. But the initial reaction of the general public isn't to run away from guns -- it's to buy more. At least from what I can tell. As my wife has been saying, this issue seems to be quite a bit different than other issues.

brgman

People are seeing the world they know/knew spinning out of control.Anyone over 40 especially grew up in a much different way.(obviously i know) But these same people are either tired of watching the decay of the country or are afraid of what is going to happen with this decay.Maybe both.
10 years ago my wife would think i was nuts to ask her to get a gun of her own and learn how to use it.
Today she gladly has her concealed carry permit and understands it could be her only line of defense one day.
Think about the Rodney King incident.My wife works in Baltimore,35 miles from home.If something went down like that she may need to do things never before considered just to get home safely.

smglbrth

BTW, any idiot that goes on YouTube and "Illegally" converts a semi-auto to fully-auto rifle is an idiot that's breaking the law and is, and you put it, an idiot, and should be arrested for such an offense. However, what about the thousands of persons out there who have the semi-auto version and would not "Illegally" convert them to fully auto? A person can get such a license but there are many hoops to jump through with the various forms of government agencies, not to mention a hefty price for that kind of a license. That doesn't even include the waiting and background checks, in short, you are on their list as registered with that particular firearm, period. Wonder how many of those "registered" fully auto firearms have been used in murders lately?

Oh yes, let's just get rid of them all because of the few "idiots" that break the law and should be arrested. Guess some NEVER learn from history..., no offense...

Systems

codyc1ark wrote: »

John, I do not hold our constitution in any sort of contempt, rather, I feel like this is an issue that should have been handled many many years ago. I am a patriot, and maybe our views differ on our future. I can say I understand other views of this issue, but I feel like sometimes it may be a bit extreme. I am a firm believer that in no way our government could turn our 100% volunteer military against its brothers and sisters in any way currently. Idk, I just can't see that. Sometimes we have to do things that not everyone will like for the future and safety in our country. I am a firm believer that the money making machine that is the gun lobby have restricted what is in the best nation interest for years to become rich. I'm fine with hunting arms and pistols, and any weapons grandfathered in, but we don't need thousands of military style weapons sold every year. Especially ones that any idiot can go on YouTube and convert into a fully automatic weapon.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that this event has got the wheel spinning in gun control. Many people are going to be unhappy about it. What kind of median are we going to see? What would you accept?

Cody you know I luv ya man.
And your opinions are yours alone, and I respect that.
But there are VERY STRICT laws in place already, that govern firearm ownership.

Laws that do background checks, waiting periods ect.

Being a gun owner yourself, I would strongly suggest you enjoy that.

There may come a time someday, that you will not enjoy that right.

That is what has me and others on the soapbox today.

And the majority of Americans believe you should have that right.

txcoastal1

Look no guns-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010%E2%80%932012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

911 attacks...no guns

If you are a nut case or out for revenge one way or another you'll find a way, even consider poisoning or chemical attacks.

I'd rather have the right to defend myself

If this country gets turned upside down like the Middle East, Egypt, etc...I wanna be packing

Systems

txcoastal1 wrote: »

Look no guns-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010%E2%80%932012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

911 attacks...no guns

If you are a nut case or out for revenge one way or another you'll find a way, even consider poisoning or chemical attacks.

I'd rather have the right to defend myself

If this country gets turned upside down like the Middle East, Egypt, etc...I wanna be packing

What makes me want to puke are the past laws that state: You can have a 10 round clip, but not a 30 round?

:eek:

Are you freakin serious?

Guess most people can't figure out that they can carry 3 - 10 round clips?

Crazy, ignorant, costly, political bs!

brgman

THANKS RICK!
How about a linky to the site you found it?:cool:

Systems

brgman wrote: »

THANKS RICK!
How about a linky to the site you found it?:cool:

+1 What were we talking about?

txcoastal1

Rick88 wrote: »

No particular website, just a google search for ****...

LMAO.....Rick come clean the beer I just spit on my laptop

Systems

Rick88 wrote: »

No particular website, just a google search for ****...

You have some time on your hands my friend!

I think it is great that they start with the "biggest first".

halo71

Check out thechive.com :cool:

obieone

You can catch more flies with honey, than with vinegar

F1nut

Guys, ya'll know that the topic of guns is not allowed here. Let's get back the the original subject matter, the lack of a moral compass causing the downfall of a once great nation.

mrbigbluelight

Good point, F1. I was going to mention that my mom bought my dad an assault rifle back in 1962. A Browning tube-fed 22 that holds 12 "rounds' in the tube, firing one shot each time you pull the trigger. You know, an assault rifle.
But I won't mention that now. :redface: Pretty civil discourse so far, but rules are rules.

My point would be, however, that everyone should avoid knee-jerk reactions to disturbing events.
A "We have to do SOMETHING !!" may be a first reaction, and that's human.
BUT: to do "SOMETHING" for "SOMETHING'S" sake when it doesn't deal with the actual problem is almost guaranteed to fail.

But, getting back to the original OP post, why do we Americans do this ? We aren't idiots (for the most part), yet the "We have to do SOMETHING ..... NOW !!!" syndrome is almost guaranteed to be a first response. And the rapid response by "our" political leaders isn't directed towards real solutions, it's focused on sound bites and slogans.

PERHAPS the problem in the school shootings was the mental condition of the shooter. In my opinion, that was the source of the problem. But to see that as the problem might bring up the question of how did we get in this situation where mental health is ignored ? Mainly, IMO, because it is initially cheaper to ignore. "Doesn't affect me !" or "I don't know anyone who's nuts !" is the Ferrenghi attitude this country has developed, IMO. "That will raise my taxes !" is what politicians know the average citizen is focused on, so when it comes time to trim the budget, the "nuts" become jetsam. And down the road, innocents become flotsam.
But that flotsam occurs down the road, so we choose to ignore any truthful, helpful solutions that will bring real results.
Instead, the no-cost, knee-jerk "BAN" button gets pushed. Time will be wasted on non-issue hearings, laws will be passed that don't deal with the real problem and are not Constitutional, Supreme Court time will be wasted on overturning this law, and ..... we're back to square one. And the politicians will be able to say, "Darn, we tried !".

And the "nuts" will keep cracking, and we can all pretend to be surprised.

codyc1ark

txcoastal1 wrote: »

Look no guns-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010%E2%80%932012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

911 attacks...no guns

If you are a nut case or out for revenge one way or another you'll find a way, even consider poisoning or chemical attacks.

I'd rather have the right to defend myself

If this country gets turned upside down like the Middle East, Egypt, etc...I wanna be packing

Way to paranoid and extreme for the conversation, and this is the reason we can't have a healthy debate nationally. Unfortunately.

F1nut wrote: »

Guys, ya'll know that the topic of guns is not allowed here. Let's get back the the original subject matter, the lack of a moral compass causing the downfall of a once great nation.

Well, politics or brand bashing isn't either, but many people seem to do both. I'd also say that the moral compass issue is a matter of opinion. We're still a great nation, but we can't get anything done. It's sad to see the population is more outspoken over issues such as **** marriage, gun rights, and taxes rather then education, infrastructure, and science. Are you trying to build a great nation for everyone, or for yourself? We all need to do our part, and most of us are not.

codyc1ark

mrbigbluelight wrote: »

PERHAPS the problem in the school shootings was the mental condition of the shooter. In my opinion, that was the source of the problem. But to see that as the problem might bring up the question of how did we get in this situation where mental health is ignored ? Mainly, IMO, because it is initially cheaper to ignore

This is the nail and head.

PolkieMan

Yea the kids mother knew he was a little off in the head.
Divorce, no father around, his immaturity, mental problems.
It all gets back paying attention to what's going on around you.
She was an irresponsible gun owner, no doubt.

codyc1ark wrote: »

This is the nail and head.

WilliamM2

F1nut wrote: »

Guys, ya'll know that the topic of guns is not allowed here. Let's get back the the original subject matter, the lack of a moral compass causing the downfall of a once great nation.

Hard to discuss without politics, which is also not allowed here. Suprised this thread isn't already closed.

George Grand

If it gets closed down, I won't get to read more ridiculous posts such as "The Japanese didn't invade the US because we're a gun totin' country."

Try a history book sometime knucklehead.

Amherst

mrbigbluelight wrote: »

why do we Americans do this ? We aren't idiots (for the most part), yet the "We have to do SOMETHING ..... NOW !!!" syndrome is almost guaranteed to be a first response. And the rapid response by "our" political leaders isn't directed towards real solutions, it's focused on sound bites and slogans.

PERHAPS the problem in the school shootings was the mental condition of the shooter. In my opinion, that was the source of the problem. But to see that as the problem might bring up the question of how did we get in this situation where mental health is ignored ? Mainly, IMO, because it is initially cheaper to ignore. "Doesn't affect me !" or "I don't know anyone who's nuts !" is the Ferrenghi attitude this country has developed, IMO. "That will raise my taxes !" is what politicians know the average citizen is focused on, so when it comes time to trim the budget, the "nuts" become jetsam. And down the road, innocents become flotsam.
But that flotsam occurs down the road, so we choose to ignore any truthful, helpful solutions that will bring real results.
Instead, the no-cost, knee-jerk "BAN" button gets pushed. Time will be wasted on non-issue hearings, laws will be passed that don't deal with the real problem and are not Constitutional, Supreme Court time will be wasted on overturning this law, and ..... we're back to square one. And the politicians will be able to say, "Darn, we tried !".

And the "nuts" will keep cracking, and we can all pretend to be surprised.

Said PERFECTLY!

The root of the matter....never touched.

tonyb

Mr. BBL pretty much hit it, that scenario is played out over and over and we all cheer the fact that nothing was done but you sure feel better about it. Huh ?? Ok, then, lets start with Moral decay......where do you get it from and why does it matter ? I guess most can say they adopted a moral sense of right and wrong from an early age from their parents. Hmm....family unit as we know it has been under attack for awhile now. Too many reasons for that to go into, but the next logical moral compass is one's faith, regardless of which one it is, they all have some. Religion has been under attack, I think we can all agree on that. Another is our education system, which takes the place of parents for most the day. Far be it for me to judge who's moral compass is right or wrong, but there are some basics that should be universal, wouldn't you agree ? With that basic moral compass, in this country that used to apply that across the board, but no more. I see corporations with absolutely zero, and are pure profit driven by the shock and wow factor. Their targeted audience....young kids. From the Hollywood sleeze available in any mag. or online website, to clothing manufacturers with the most obscene stuff printed on them or in their advertising. To video games which is basically soft ****, and the violence inherit to some of these games. Then you have the lack of parenting skills which is a whole other conversation. There are many area's society is failing at, but all these area's are being pushed by one side of the political spectrum. I know, I know, politics again, but you have to play connect the dots sometimes and it leads back to who advocates for what in society. Don't get me wrong, I know it's not 1958 anymore, nor do I wish it to be, but there are some threads of decency that should stay well woven into generations as we mature over the decades of technology advancements. It is we the people who are responsible for that, so if your looking to point fingers, remember three are always pointing back to you.

tonyb

Why does it matter ? Because society would fall into anarchy without it. We know that, the founders knew that. From where I sit, the level of decency that is acceptable has slipped lower and lower as the generations progress. Thats just not my take on it, many would agree to that.....but fail to look at why. Have we as a society become so wrapped up in our chase for the almighty dollar that we forgot what really matters most ? I would say yes, we have. We lust after material objects and worship social status much more than the well being of our children. A total reverse of years ago. I have soo many friends who want to work 2 jobs, both parents, so they can have that huge house, Range Rover in the driveway, while their kids are in daycare most the time and babbysitters or nannys on the weekends. This baffles me to no end. Don't have frickin' kids if you can't raise them. Then on top of it, these kids become addicted to video games, and parents provide them with all the gadgets, cell phones, tablets, tv's in their rooms, nice cars at 16 years old. The kids then look for other peers to influence their sponge minds. The internet is full of people to influence your kid, as is our higher learning institutions. Are we really surprised some kids turn out as this one nutjob ? Come on man, lets get our heads out of the sand for a moment and take a look around, starting with ourselves.

amulford

I love how people will twist a statement to fit their own agenda.

We need to recognize the root cause here. That kid was mentally compromised and lived out some sick and twisted fantasy.

But Ted is right. Regardless of what you think of him, he is right. Our morals as a society are deplorable.

bmbguy

As my wife and I have discussed recently, one thing we have today versus years ago is a medical profession that seems to prescribe mood-altering drugs like they're candy -- children and teenagers included.

When I was in school, I don't recall anyone ever mentioning ritalin...or anything else, for that matter.

Strong Bad

bmbguy wrote: »

As my wife and I have discussed recently, one thing we have today versus years ago is a medical profession that seems to prescribe mood-altering drugs like they're candy -- children and teenagers included.

When I was in school, I don't recall anyone ever mentioning ritalin...or anything else, for that matter.

When I was in school, we were prescribed steady doses of DISCIPLINE! Parents kept us in line at home and teachers kept us in line at school. There was none of this "I'll sue you if you yell at me" nonsense. We had bullies back then, but they were cracked down on. I remember my father went to the school, sat in the principals office and flatout put the fear of the Marines into everyone if I were not left alone. From that point on...nobody messed with me.

Won't find that today!

smglbrth

tonyb wrote: »

Why does it matter ? Because society would fall into anarchy without it. We know that, the founders knew that. From where I sit, the level of decency that is acceptable has slipped lower and lower as the generations progress. Thats just not my take on it, many would agree to that.....but fail to look at why. Have we as a society become so wrapped up in our chase for the almighty dollar that we forgot what really matters most ? I would say yes, we have. We lust after material objects and worship social status much more than the well being of our children. A total reverse of years ago. I have soo many friends who want to work 2 jobs, both parents, so they can have that huge house, Range Rover in the driveway, while their kids are in daycare most the time and babbysitters or nannys on the weekends. This baffles me to no end. Don't have frickin' kids if you can't raise them. Then on top of it, these kids become addicted to video games, and parents provide them with all the gadgets, cell phones, tablets, tv's in their rooms, nice cars at 16 years old. The kids then look for other peers to influence their sponge minds. The internet is full of people to influence your kid, as is our higher learning institutions. Are we really surprised some kids turn out as this one nutjob ? Come on man, lets get our heads out of the sand for a moment and take a look around, starting with ourselves.

Ditto, Tony. I've been the only income in our family since we started having kids. Why?, just because of what you stated, among other things. Parents today like the idea of a little baby to cradle. Problem is, they grow up! Then comes the "I can't handle the kids anymore", "I'm just not one of those moms that can stay at home", "we need the money", etc... Grow up parents, and start acting like parents! Stop buying things for your children expecting that that will make them happy! And for goodness sake DISCIPLINE them! Parents are what they need, not buddies. I told my kids long, long ago that I was not their buddy, I was their father, period...

Ok, off my soapbox now...

brgman

smglbrth wrote: »

Ditto, Tony. I've been the only income in our family since we started having kids. Why?, just because of what you stated, among other things. Parents today like the idea of a little baby to cradle. Problem is, they grow up! Then comes the "I can't handle the kids anymore", "I'm just not one of those moms that can stay at home", "we need the money", etc... Grow up parents, and start acting like parents! Stop buying things for your children expecting that that will make them happy! And for goodness sake DISCIPLINE them! Parents are what they need, not buddies. I told my kids long, long ago that I was not their buddy, I was their father, period...

Ok, off my soapbox now...

Lots of great points.It MUST start at home and then carry over.We are extremely lucky to be able to send my son to private school.I get lots of crap from people for doing this.
"Is it really worth all that money?" is the most common question.
It's a matter of priorities.Sure i could have a nicer stereo or car or pay for classier hookers but my 17 year old is doing pretty damn good the culture he is surrounded by these days.

tonyb

Bingo man, not only a childs culture at home but his culture at school also play a huge role. Granted, not everyone can go down the private school path, but....if you got a voucher for the taxes you payed for schools, that would enable more private school enrollment. Flipside of that though, is you take money out of the public sector schools and Unions pockets. Since the law requires the state to provide free schooling, how about we switch that responsibility on the parent instead of the state. Make it a requirement for a parent to enroll their child in school and let them pay for it. This would shrink the free public schools to a point where sales tax could pay for that. Won't happen though, the childs benefits come way down on the list under the adults, administrators, Unions. The way my state is set up anyway, if you want to pay for private schooling, your free to do so, but you still have to pay for the public one too. So thats a double bubble your hit with. What that does is say only the wealthy will be able to send kids to private schools, the rest are locked into the public schools for life. Time to reshuffle the deck on how things have been done, to a newer way that promotes a better learning experience with the childs best interest at the core.

brgman

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Not to single you out there too much there Blue, but all of your points above can be proven demonstrably false in short order. The tax cuts for example, if we had not done them we would have gained enough revenue to fund the government for eight days! The economy was in recession when GW took office and those cuts are responsible for making the recession so short that most forgot about the free fall we were in towards the middle and end of 2001. The unfunded wars part I somewhat agree with, but if your point is that the tax cut is why they were unfunded, that would be false. It is fact however that the current administration has 6 trillion in in unfunded programs and spending over and above the unfunded wars. GW spent like a drunken sailor in port for the first time in a decade, but this group spends mony faster than the ink can dry off the printing presses.

The evil bankers and wall street fat cats of which you speak... Yes, the greed was rampant, but it was sent in motion by Chuckie Schumer and his buddy Rangel on the house ways and means committee telling banks they had to lend to those least equipped to afford a home loan. The reason nobody went to jail in that mess and the bailouts took place is because everybody knew it was the policies of the 1990s that caused the fiasco in the first place. To let the truth come out. God knows we can't have the truth come out... ever!

The reason we are in this mess is because we as individuals have failed. Our homes are broken, communities are failures. We have turned our backs on god and morality, and we have allowed our political system to pick our pockets in the name of the children. Time to stop letting the government near our kids and get back to basics.

Let's not forget to give ol Bawney Fwank his credit for the Fannie and Fweddie mess as well.

Polkersince85

.... or Dodd who slid out before he could be prosecuted. Atlanta counties are suing HSBC for the fraud committed on loans and loss of property tax revenues. Several other states are going after them , too. Maybe somebody will pay for this stuff.

We don't have a tax problem, we have a spending problem.