Can an EQ "FIX" badly remastered CD's ??
naturallight
Posts: 689
Has anybody tried or used an eq, say an old Audio Control, or Audio Source to make really badly EQ cd's listenable?? To say FIX would be wrong as you can't do that, but at least passable.
I don't usually listen to these cd's, as i know what i'm going to hear. But that really kills alot of cd's and mostly older music. The worst is the older Southern rock stuff, which usually ends up as compilation CD's. They have been compressed to hell, and the treble is boosted, so this is now in earbleed territory. In some cases the guitars could drill a hole right thru your head, but most of the time it's the vocals, and if it's a female, don't even bother to turn it up. You pretty much have to jump up, turn it down, or just give up and take off that cd.
This is not just limited to old Southern Rock. Pretty much any Compilation CD, that was originally an analog tape, remastered and mixed to sell single songs to people as a download to there MP3 players. This ends up to be anybody from Eddie Money to Billy Squire. Even a tube CD player can't help these cd's that much.
Now if you could lower the offending frequencies, just enough to take them out of earbleed mode..maybe, maybe the trade off in noise or whatever else it may throw at the system.....might be worth it to salvage these cd's. Has anybody tried to do this?
I don't usually listen to these cd's, as i know what i'm going to hear. But that really kills alot of cd's and mostly older music. The worst is the older Southern rock stuff, which usually ends up as compilation CD's. They have been compressed to hell, and the treble is boosted, so this is now in earbleed territory. In some cases the guitars could drill a hole right thru your head, but most of the time it's the vocals, and if it's a female, don't even bother to turn it up. You pretty much have to jump up, turn it down, or just give up and take off that cd.
This is not just limited to old Southern Rock. Pretty much any Compilation CD, that was originally an analog tape, remastered and mixed to sell single songs to people as a download to there MP3 players. This ends up to be anybody from Eddie Money to Billy Squire. Even a tube CD player can't help these cd's that much.
Now if you could lower the offending frequencies, just enough to take them out of earbleed mode..maybe, maybe the trade off in noise or whatever else it may throw at the system.....might be worth it to salvage these cd's. Has anybody tried to do this?
Post edited by naturallight on
Comments
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I say yes, the anal retentive, zero tone control folks will say "absolutely not, suffer through it unchanged or throw it away"! Or, something to that effect. :eek:
In the end, it's all about what you find pleasing. -
If memory serves, I believe DBX used to make a Dynamic Range Expander, that may have had some rudimentory equalization functions as well. I never used one, so can't comment on how well it worked.naturallight wrote: »Has anybody tried or used an eq, say an old Audio Control, or Audio Source to make really badly EQ cd's listenable?? To say FIX would be wrong as you can't do that, but at least passable.
I don't usually listen to these cd's, as i know what i'm going to hear. But that really kills alot of cd's and mostly older music. The worst is the older Southern rock stuff, which usually ends up as compilation CD's. They have been compressed to hell, and the treble is boosted, so this is now in earbleed territory. In some cases the guitars could drill a hole right thru your head, but most of the time it's the vocals, and if it's a female, don't even bother to turn it up. You pretty much have to jump up, turn it down, or just give up and take off that cd.
This is not just limited to old Southern Rock. Pretty much any Compilation CD, that was originally an analog tape, remastered and mixed to sell single songs to people as a download to there MP3 players. This ends up to be anybody from Eddie Money to Billy Squire. Even a tube CD player can't help these cd's that much.
Now if you could lower the offending frequencies, just enough to take them out of earbleed mode..maybe, maybe the trade off in noise or whatever else it may throw at the system.....might be worth it to salvage these cd's. Has anybody tried to do this?Home Theater/2 Channel:
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There's nothing "anal retentive" about equalizers. While you may be able to help some frequencies with them, you also introduce more noise. Sort of creating one problem to fix another. A bad recording is a bad recording, no magic wand can fix that. Seems to me it would be easier to chase down better recordings of your favorite music.
Anyway.....EQ'ers are a dime a dozen these days so it wouldn't hurt to try one out but once in the system you may find that bad recordings may be a tad more tolerable, but the good recordings will also now sound worse.HT SYSTEM-
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The main problem is..you can't find CD's of older bands that are not compilations, or if you do, they have the same problem. Over compressed piles of junk so they can sell singles to the MP3 crowd. There is NO REAL fix for this mess. You can go back to a TT..try and find a record, that has not been overly abused. Then you get the original analog recording...which has none of these problems.
The only other option would be to put something like an old Audio Control EQ in the mix. If i recall correctly (which may not be right) you would hook this up thru the tape section of the preamp, the only way it works is to put the preamp in tape monitor mode..or something like that. Now you may be able to pull down the offending frequency's on the bad CD's so that there playable..granted you may have some added noise in the mix, but rather then NOT hear the music at all...maybe a useful compromise.
For well recorded CD's....you just shut off the tape monitor, turn the unit off...and it should not be in the loop or effect the cd playback. "I THINK"..don't remember how these things really work. -
Doing it efficiently is going to be the problem as I see it. You can use EQ to level the response curve to deal with unwanted spikes in a poor master. Band-aid at best but you already knew that.
Doing it on the fly disk to disk is going to be the problem. An audio engineer can identify the trouble areas by ear and make subtle corrections. For most of us it requires an analyzer to correctly identify the trouble frequencies and make accurate adjustments.
With a 31 band graphic eq plus plenty of trial and error you should be able to make improvements. When not in use, bypass it out of the audio chain as even the best units will add noise to the chain. How much noise is directly related to your budget.
EQ is like anything else in the audio industry. Some really good, some really bad, with some in between. -
Well rather then throw alot of CD's in the garbage..an EQ may be better. They all have the same problem to a point. They have all been compressed to hell, as a result, the high end is nasty, plus it may have been boosted also. So for the most part..your only dealing with x amount of high frequencies that don't work well with a descent stereo system. If you can pull down those frequencies...just enough..the CD then becomes listenable.
A cheap and not correct fix...but may make the CD listenable.
Friend of mine has the Kiss Asylum cd...he can't listen to it on his home stereo system....the treble will kill you. He put the cd in his car "Bose" system..GEEEEE The crap cd became listenable.
SO..you either bite the bullet..never turn any of this stuff up, you throw all these junk CD's away and buy a TT and try and get the original vinyl...or you try and fix it to the point you can listen to it with an EQ. -
Or you can buy a better recording , download it it in a lossless format, play it back threw a good dac and bingo.....good sound.
To each his own I guess, but for me personally, any cd thats as bad as you say yours are simply won't see the light of day in my house. I'd rather listen to no music than bad music, thats just me though.HT SYSTEM-
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lsi 9's -
It might be worth trying. I have an old BSR/ADC EQ-3000 with 10 bands per channel & it has a spectrum analyzer with pink noise generator and a mic. I'm never going to use it so, if you want it to try, send me a PM. I'll let it go for beans.
It's just like this one: http://thecarversite.com/yetanotherforum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=61202.1: PC>Schiit Gungnir MB>Schiit Freya Noval>NAD C-270>Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1, HSU STF-2 5.1: HDMI Bitstream>Denon AVR-1910>polkaudio RTE55, CS350-LS, RT3, HSU STF-2, Visio M55-F0 -
Tony...well thats all fine and dandy..but WERE am i "supposed" to find better recordings of these old bands, when this is the only junk i could find in the first place?? Plus it took alot of time to find them.
You can't fix over processed , compressed to the max CD's..no matter how nice your lossless files might be.
Maybe.....an eq can make them passable. -
I can see all sides of this.
Instead of diddling for simple playback how about trying to do the deed for ripping? Some sort of A to D would be required. If the bad is consistent disk to disk it would be a major pain. If it is track to track bad in different ways it becomes a nightmare. Imagine trying to voice the output track to track?
If you are looking for a "what if" project I think it can be done. EQ for individual disks and not day to day use in a voiced system makes the hardware easier. You would want a minimum of third octave graphic. Full octave (ten band in the old school gear) makes the cut so wide that you see badness develop next to your issue frequency. Parametric is great for installed sound but that is not the object here. The average home where one might choose to use eq instead of treatments has four or five problem bands (ring modes) With parametric we get to center the band and choose the slope of the correction. This is not the goal for what you are thinking. -
naturallight wrote: »Tony...well thats all fine and dandy..but WERE am i "supposed" to find better recordings of these old bands, when this is the only junk i could find in the first place?? Plus it took alot of time to find them.
You can't fix over processed , compressed to the max CD's..no matter how nice your lossless files might be.
Maybe.....an eq can make them passable.
www.secondspin.com -
Let me put it this way..have you ever heard the remastered CD of Kiss "asylum" album. Plus this is not the worst by far. But the bass or bottom end is missing for some reason, the cd has been compressed enough to make Stanley's vocal on King of the Mountain...to the point you want to cover your ears.
The Rossington Collens band..that cd they destroyed. The women's vocal ....which she is a great singer..again compressed to the max..is now that you have to jump up and turn it down..you can't listen to this cd at volume, unless your deaf.
I've heard the original vinyl analog recordings of this stuff...it sounds great, and will play on SDA speakers ..loud all day long. I know..i had the original vinyl and played it on the SDA's.....
This new remastered junk on cd..is just that junk. So if this is the only thing thats out there...how can you find a better recording??? Plus what do you do, as you say...well just don't listen to it...NOT a good answer.
A crappy EQ..MAY..make these cd's passable...other wise your stuck with going back to the original Vinyl...
There is no good answer for crappy remastered CD's. Going back to vinyl keeps looking better and better.... -
naturallight wrote: »A crappy EQ..MAY..make these cd's passable
Crappy is by definition and intended use. Gifford White of White Instruments said there would never be a slide pot in any of the companies gear while he was alive. There wasn't either. Slides stink for installed sound as the open pot changes conductivity over time. Not an issue in your case. A slide type eq will not hold center over the years. Again, this should not matter in your case.
You are not going to "fix" anything but you can correct to some extent. -
littlewood..yes...I have a 32 track recorder....I COULD dump these nasty cd's in to the recorder.
BUT..all i can mess with is the 2 stereo tracks..thats it. I can't fix individual tracks.
I can't "UN COMPRESS" the recording...i CAN'T make it right. I can only, pull down the treble, and maybe boost the bass that may have been lost..depending on the song....I can't put it back to what it should have been....but you are right..I could make it passable.
The amount of time to do that for all the bad CD's....LMAO would be insane.
But your right..it could be done.....NOT RIGHT..but would make them passable. -
naturallight wrote: »littlewood..yes...I have a 32 track recorder....I COULD dump these nasty cd's in to the recorder.
BUT..all i can mess with is the 2 stereo tracks..thats it. I can't fix individual tracks.
I can't "UN COMPRESS" the recording...i CAN'T make it right. I can only, pull down the treble, and maybe boost the bass that may have been lost..depending on the song....I can't put it back to what it should have been....but you are right..I could make it passable.
The amount of time to do that for all the bad CD's....LMAO would be insane.
But your right..it could be done.....NOT RIGHT..but would make them passable.
I am on your side buddy. What a nightmare. But it could be done. Boosting what does not exist cannot be done but to level the highs? Sure, why not?
I see a place for eq in the world but not all agree. Completely fair, I do not spec their gear and they do not spec mine.
Sleaze grade slide pot eq sprayed and exercised from time to time to keep the contact crud to a minimum. You should be able to get where you want to be. Should be able to buy a couple of 31 band single channel (never stereo units in graphic due to the crosstalk and phase shift) units for next to nothing. -
In my experience with EQ's...you can polish the sound a little. But an EQ is not gonna fix a bad recording. No matter how much you polish a **** it is still just that, a ****. I know what you mean though. I have many many old recordings on CD that sound terrible. I rarely listen to them anymore due to that.--Gary--
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In my experience with EQ's...you can polish the sound a little. But an EQ is not gonna fix a bad recording. No matter how much you polish a **** it is still just that, a ****. I know what you mean though. I have many many old recordings on CD that sound terrible. I rarely listen to them anymore due to that.
You are 100% correct when discussing the correction of a bad recording. -
Instead of buying the remaster, find the original CD.Political Correctness'.........defined
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Instead of buying the remaster, find the original CD.
Could you expand on this a bit? I thought the issue was for stuff done prior to the time of CD?
They way you made your statement leads me to believe you had a specific point that some of us may have missed. -
It seems to me that he is talking about remastered CD's, not an original CD release.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
It seems to me that he is talking about remastered CD's, not an original CD release.
I am brain damaged. Somehow or another I got so caught up in the eq options for bad masters I lost the point. I was thinking of the bad tape master to digital mixes -
FWIW......Carver's Digital Time Lens and the later, Soft EQ, will go a LONG way towards taming some of the early, badly mastered CDs and I would imagine, the remastered discs as well. I'm not sure if any other manufacturer ever produced similar circuitry. I employ mine in a C-11 preamp regularly. No more "dentist drill" sounds ! My Musical Fidelity tube buffer doesn't exactly hurt either....
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FWIW......Carver's Digital Time Lens and the later, Soft EQ, will go a LONG way towards taming some of the early, badly mastered CDs and I would imagine, the remastered discs as well. I'm not sure if any other manufacturer ever produced similar circuitry. I employ mine in a C-11 preamp regularly. No more "dentist drill" sounds ! My Musical Fidelity tube buffer doesn't exactly hurt either....
You bet. My GFP-750 switched to passive tones it down but for all the wrong reasons.
I am still waiting to hear tubes. Wednesday. Yea Haa -
It was mentioned very early in this discussion about dbx having made a unit that could go some of the way to making badly compressed music sound better. I have a dbx 3bx series II unit that I use and it can really make the sound of old compressed material sound very good. The down side is they are becoming harder to find and most are old enough to need re-capping. The unit I have really does a nice job on old store bought cassettes played on my Nakamichi CR-7. They are dynamic range enhancers much like the above mentioned digital time lens'. Oh and I also use a ADC Soundshaper III Paraequalizer. I am NOT one of the "no tone control" people. Used sparingly tone controls and eq's have their place. We can't all afford spectacular gear or live in "perfect" listening rooms. My 0.02.SDA-1C (full mods)
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There's nothing "anal retentive" about equalizers. While you may be able to help some frequencies with them, you also introduce more noise. Sort of creating one problem to fix another. A bad recording is a bad recording, no magic wand can fix that. Seems to me it would be easier to chase down better recordings of your favorite music.
Anyway.....EQ'ers are a dime a dozen these days so it wouldn't hurt to try one out but once in the system you may find that bad recordings may be a tad more tolerable, but the good recordings will also now sound worse.
in my onkyo m-504 thread, i had asked about hooking up my dynaco equalizer in the mix. halo71 mentioned the subsequent "noise" created by doing so. (i think i have that right) in any event, as an example, i played what i think is a very well-recorded "sade" cd with the equalizer hooked up and the highs were terrible. i took the equalizer out, and i got my speakers back; clean and clear again. i have since sold the equalizer. just my experience
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If you use FLAC playback, replay gain may be an answer."The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson
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^100% agree, seems more often than not, the remasters are anything but.Instead of buying the remaster, find the original CD.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
sucks2beme wrote: »If you use FLAC playback, replay gain may be an answer.
Replay gain won't do a thing for squashed dynamics that lead to a smeared/out of focus treble.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
When i say "remastered" that to me means anything that was an original analog tape, again originally on vinyl. So yes it was"remastered" to the CD format. In some cases these are the "original" cd....the only cd made of this band, this album from the original master analog tapes.
BUT these bands are long gone. The record companies figure they can make a quick buck on some of theses songs. There "remaster" of these tapes is quick , down and dirty, and seem to follow the same formula.
Compress the hell out of it, maybe crank the treble some, and drive the master volume up to just below clipping. So what you end up with, is nothing like the original vinyl.
The end result of this bastardization of these tapes seem to all be the same. The high end frequencies are at ear bleed levels. Either the guitars or vocals or a combination of the 2 is now at a point that you just don't want to listen to it.
My only thought with some kind of EQ, would be to pull down these high end frequencies...JUST enough to make them listenable again. This MAY or MAYNOT be doable, and may make the CD worse then it already is...BUT it may be worth a shot, rather then just throw these cd's into the unplayed pile.
