Are the new LSIM reference quality?
Comments
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About six months ago I read an article where a guy took is LSIM's over to his friends house who had modded his Lsi9's. After comparing them they both came to the conclusion that the modded Lsi9's sounded better. No mention was made of what the upgraded components were. I think it would interesting to compare what Vr3 usually uses to mod the Lsi9's say to the components of the LSIM's. Anybody here ever heard the LSIM's compared to modded Lsi9's?You're probably right. I did think it was interesting that the LSIM guy would say that though. I am going to try to find that article again and post a link to it. I've owned my Lsi9's for years and never understood why some implied that the Lsi9's had a "veiled" sound. Darqueknight's mod thread is when I first heard this term applied to them. He and others were very impressed by what the mod did to their sound. Most, that had it done, agreed that the the bass got tighter, and it opened up the midrange and treble. Clarity greatly improved. It was like a "veil" had been lifted off the sound several said. Look at Darqueknights thread on this and see the pics of what caps were originally used on the stock Lsi9's. Then look at what replaced them. Polk could have done that, but probably choose not to because of the extra cost involved. A manufacturer has to draw the line somewhere on the cost for sure. This is an interesting video on youtube where a guy is comparing a modded Lsi15, to a stock Lsi15. Listen to it with your eyes closed to see if you can tell the difference in the clarity. Even with a Sony camcorder mic I think the difference is impressive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFNPrqSxAgwThe article you are refering to was actually a thread that was posted here on CP last summer I believe. One of the members compared the LSiM-703 to their modded LSi-9s and posted their findings. I think the title of the thread was LSiM-703 review or something like that. At any rate I've never heard any modded LSi-9s, but they have to sound damn impressive to sound better then the LSiM-703s. I'm blown away by their performance everytime I listen to them.
It was more than likely the article I wrote. There was a meeting at dcmartinpc's house in Niles Michigan that was him, myself and my wife and anonymouse. We compared the LSiM's to stock LSi9's and modded LSi9's that were owned by anonymouse.
All of us agreed that the LSiM's sounded good, but had a smaller soundstage than the LSi 9's both stock and modded, and we all preferred the modded 9's over the LSiM's.
Here are a couple links
Pics: http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?122743-Midwest-LSiM-Demo-Gathering&p=1656238&viewfull=1#post1656238
Review: http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?122743-Midwest-LSiM-Demo-Gathering&p=1656337&viewfull=1#post1656337
Another thread with reviews: http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?124592-LSiM-series-speaker-reviews
Now I will say that I would still like to hear the LSiM's again and keep debating trying to get up to leroyjr's house to listen to his setup and maybe bring my 15's with me to do a compare...."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
Thanks for posting those links EndersShadow, but the article I read what not connected to the Polk forum. It was different site.Living Room: HK AVR 354 as pre/pro, 2 x Polk Audio Micropro 4000, Adcom GFA-7500, 2 x Mirage OMD-15
2 x Mirage OMD-5, 1 x Mirage OMD-C1, APC H15, Sony S790, Philips 52" LCD, Beogram 3000, FAT (Firestone Audio Tobby DAC), Harmony One
Den: Sherwood R-972,as pre/pro, 2 x Velodyne SPL-1000R, 3 x Crown Drivecore XLS1500, 2 x Polk Audio Lsi9
1 x Polk Audio Lsic, 2 x Polk Audio Lsifx, Sony S790, APC H15, Dspeaker Dual Core 2.0, W4S DAC 2, Keces DA-151 -
Ok I also posted that article on avsforum"....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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One thing I would like to add about the LSiMs, it seems folks with tube gear tend to be more impressed with them than folks running all solid state gear. I think the LSiMs being a bit more neutral than the LSis which have a warmer tone, are probably a better match for tube gear. I noticed in the links for the comparisons of the modded LSi-9s to the LSiM-703s that the comparisons were being made with all solid state gear. I didn't notice that before when I read the review from what I can remember. I'm not discounting the review at all, everybody obviously heard what they heard and the modded LSi-9s clearly sounded better to everybody. All I am saying is the LSiMs sound great with tube gear and it's hard to say how the comparison would come out in a different system, especially one with tubes.
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i too would be surprised if any mod made the LSI sound better than the LSiM.I have found that tube based computers provide the best sound quality. ENIAC and MANIAC I offer a smooth, well defined and articulated sound unmatched by the current silicon based CPUs.
jeremymarcinko wrote: »But as in all things your perception is your reality. -
i'd be very surprised if someone can make the lsi9 better than lsim for just a few hundred bucks. Given the tech of the drivers is like 10 yrs old. if this is true, then what is wrong with engineers at Polk?
There's a bit more going on than the tech of the drivers. In fact, many think the old doped paper drivers are still the best. Anyway, I could easily see LSi 9's modded with high quality caps and resistors sounding better than stock LSiM's, which still use a lot of electrolytic caps and sand cast resistors.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
you know, caps and resistors are not expensive, even the good ones. If there was such a great benefit from using better ones I just refuse to believe that polk would spare a few bucks for their top line speakers. Who in their right mind would do that? Saving $20 from a 500 dollar speaker reduces significantly the quality of the sound? well just just put the better caps and sell of for 520 or whatever.I have found that tube based computers provide the best sound quality. ENIAC and MANIAC I offer a smooth, well defined and articulated sound unmatched by the current silicon based CPUs.jeremymarcinko wrote: »But as in all things your perception is your reality.
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you know, caps and resistors are not expensive, even the good ones.
Once again, you have no clue.
A single Sonicap 3.3uF / 200VDC 0.79 x 1.27, Each $10.78
A single AURICAP 3.3uF / 200VDC, XO Series, Metalized Polypropylene Cap, Each $33.78
A single Mundorf 3.3uf / 1000V, M-CAP? Supreme Silver / Gold & Oil, Each $139.86
A single Dueland 3.3uf - 100VAC / 200VDC, VSF BLACK, Copper Foil, Each $303.17Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
But they are that expensive. Usually $300.00+ just in parts not including the labor. This would be for a pair of Lsi9's. Let me explain how that would affect price in the end. I owned a music store for 21 years so I know a little about markup. If Polk opted to use upgraded components like DarqueKnight (see link below) used, say, the price of the Lsi9's would go up an additional 1200.00 a pair above what they were originally listed at making the list for around 2,400.00. Usually a manufacturer will at minimum double it's cost to the dealer. Then the dealer at minimum doubles his cost to the customer. Look at the pics/pricesof the components that came out of the LSi9 compared to what went in (see link below). Even just by looking do you see a quality difference? The crossover is the brains of the speaker, and is usually the most expensive part. The quality of components used will directly affect the sound, but will also directly affect the retail price. A manufacturer does a lot of research analysisto understand it's competitors products and their price ranges that it is competing against. Also they analyze their target customer market to make products at price points that will compete in those markets.
Can a car's transmission be upgraded? Can your CPU's processor be upgraded? Can wire be upgraded? Yes, to all, but at a price. And that end price to the public, decided on by the manufacturer, dictates the quality and price of the components that they will use. I just hope Polk is still not using electrolytic capacitors in the LSIM's like in the Lsi9's as this is a significant limiting factor to their sound potential.
Anyway, take a look this article by a fellow Polkie about his Lsi9's. It's not only informative, but you can see what came out ofthe Lsi9's vs what when in, and what difference it made sound wise.
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?72273-LSi9-Crossover-Modification-Project
Also informative, and in depth is an article about crossovers design:
www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/the-loudspeaker-crossoverLiving Room: HK AVR 354 as pre/pro, 2 x Polk Audio Micropro 4000, Adcom GFA-7500, 2 x Mirage OMD-15
2 x Mirage OMD-5, 1 x Mirage OMD-C1, APC H15, Sony S790, Philips 52" LCD, Beogram 3000, FAT (Firestone Audio Tobby DAC), Harmony One
Den: Sherwood R-972,as pre/pro, 2 x Velodyne SPL-1000R, 3 x Crown Drivecore XLS1500, 2 x Polk Audio Lsi9
1 x Polk Audio Lsic, 2 x Polk Audio Lsifx, Sony S790, APC H15, Dspeaker Dual Core 2.0, W4S DAC 2, Keces DA-151 -
It's more than double.
Say a speaker retails for $1,500. Due to the manufacturer being able to buy in bulk, it may only cost them $150 in parts, and the rest will go to overhead, R&D, distributors, etc... Adding $300 in parts(maybe $100 in bulk) will make a substantial difference in the overall price of the unit. Cost you imagine the cost of LSi9's retailing for $500 to $1,000 more?"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
But they are that expensive. Usually $300.00+ just in parts not including the labor. This would be for a pair of Lsi9's. Let me explain how that would affect price in the end. I owned a music store for 21 years so I know a little about markup. If Polk opted to use upgraded components like DarqueKnight (see link below) used, say, the price of the Lsi9's would go up an additional 1200.00 a pair above what they were originally listed at making the list for around 2,400.00. Usually a manufacturer will at minimum double it's cost to the dealer. Then the dealer at minimum doubles his cost to the customer. Look at the pics/pricesof the components that came out of the LSi9 compared to what went in (see link below). Even just by looking do you see a quality difference? The crossover is the brains of the speaker, and is usually the most expensive part. The quality of components used will directly affect the sound, but will also directly affect the retail price. A manufacturer does a lot of research analysisto understand it's competitors products and their price ranges that it is competing against. Also they analyze their target customer market to make products at price points that will compete in those markets.
Can a car's transmission be upgraded? Can your CPU's processor be upgraded? Can wire be upgraded? Yes, to all, but at a price. And that end price to the public, decided on by the manufacturer, dictates the quality and price of the components that they will use. I just hope Polk is still not using electrolytic capacitors in the LSIM's like in the Lsi9's as this is a significant limiting factor to their sound potential.
Anyway, take a look this article by a fellow Polkie about his Lsi9's. It's not only informative, but you can see what came out ofthe Lsi9's vs what when in, and what difference it made sound wise.
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?72273-LSi9-Crossover-Modification-Project
Also informative, and in depth is an article about crossovers design:
www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/the-loudspeaker-crossover
Thank you!
Its not that they are using the best because if they did then they are going to go for a lot higher of a price point. If they go higher than are they going to be hitting their target market they want to fit into? Probably not.
Sure polk could use the best of the best and go all out, and then price themselves so high because of all the time, labor, etc etc used and be at the price point higher than what most people here are willing to spend.
To me, the reference you have is what you can afford within the line. Most people will find what sounds best to them and that will be their "reference". Enjoy what you can afford, everyone has a budget to stick with. Some are higher than others and some people will refer to reference gear differently than others.
