Take it easy on me - SDA 1C Question

Saftgeek

My amp is an older M501. The Onkyo TS-DX898 processor has preamp outputs...

I'm a little shaken by the price difference. I was prepared to haggle, but asking someone to take half may be a stretch. The guy told me these are studio speakers with hard sides, if that means anything special. I'm not stressed... This is fun. I'm ready to do what I have to do. After reading so many great posts and studying all the terminology it's hard not to get caught up in it. I'll try not to ask too many more questions before this weekend. After Saturday, God willing, it may be a different story.

As far as military service and bravery... Thank you for your kind words. I truly didn't sacrifice much, especially compared to what our servicemen endure today. We had the monthly assault on the bars in Tiajuana, but always survived. A lot of fun, a long time ago, but truly nothing near as difficult as our current situation in the world.

Thanks again everyone! This stuff is great.

-Saftgeek

gdb

I wouldn't get too wrapped up in the AI-1 mindset until you've determined that your AVR-Power Amp are not built with common ground on the neg. speaker terminals. Even then, unless you're in love with those pieces of gear......it'd probably be better/easier to change components. If, on the other hand, you plan on some big honkin' monoblocks down the road.............:cheesygrin:

nspindel

Saftgeek wrote: »

I'm a little shaken by the price difference. I was prepared to haggle, but asking someone to take half may be a stretch.

The guy's asking too much. Send him a link to this forum if you feel uncomfortable telling him directly. We watch these things sell all the time, and have a very good feel for the market value of these speakers. SDA's show up on Craigslist all the time. If he wants $600 for these, then they may not be the speakers for you. Don't overspend, you're going to need that cash to get them freshened up. If you don't snag these, you'll snag the next pair.

nspindel

gdb wrote: »

I wouldn't get too wrapped up in the AI-1 mindset until you've determined that your AVR-Power Amp are not built with common ground on the neg. speaker terminals. Even then, unless you're in love with those pieces of gear......it'd probably be better/easier to change components. If, on the other hand, you plan on some big honkin' monoblocks down the road.............:cheesygrin:

Well, not quite. Many of us are realizing now that a kick-**** torroidal isolation transformer sitting between sides of the SDA connection is providing big sonic benefits even with common ground amps. I'll never use a straight SDA connection again, even though I do have a common ground amp.

FTGV

Saftgeek wrote: »

My amp is an older M501.

I found the schematic on line and it shows it to be common ground.

gdb

nspindel wrote: »

Well, not quite. Many of us are realizing now that a kick-**** torroidal isolation transformer sitting between sides of the SDA connection is providing big sonic benefits even with common ground amps. I'll never use a straight SDA connection again, even though I do have a common ground amp.

That's interesting and something I hadn't heard before now. I always thought everyone wanted the absolute least amount of stuff in "the path".

nspindel

Nope. Dreadnought is the rage these days. Hop in the group buy and give it a try.

FTGV

gdb wrote: »

. I always thought everyone wanted the absolute least amount of stuff in "the path".

Since the windings of the transformer are effectively paralelled with the large coil in series with the dimension drivers there will be a net reduction in DC resistance.The result being improved low frequency control(damping) and an increase in the level of sub 100hz bass produced by the dimensional drivers.

gdb

nspindel wrote: »

Nope. Dreadnought is the rage these days. Hop in the group buy and give it a try.

Any idea of the thread title or keyword ? I'd be down for one transformer to give it a try, if my pin/blade SRSIIs are in the group that'll accept the use of an AI-1.

nspindel

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?134643-Group-buy-Avel-Lindberg-1000VA-isolation-transformers-for-DreadNought

gdb

Cool, thanks !!

teekay0007

OK, so isn't the AI-1 dreadnaught transformer, at a minimum, almost $300? Then, doesn't one still need a chassis, etc. even to get started? :question:

With this in mind, wouldn't the respectable thing to do be to suggest that Saftgeek (an SDA newbie, that you know already has a common-ground amp) try out his new speakers first with what he has before diving down a mighty deep rabbit hole without knowing much about where he's going? Further, I've got the feeling that the Onkyo M501 isn't an amp that would make it into the same room as the gear of most of the people chiming in on this discussion. It would probably make more sense then that if this amp is not adequate for the job at hand that an extra $300 (or more) added to the "new amp fund" would probably do more for speaker performance improvement than the AI-1 with the old amp.

Just a sideline observation of possibly some ulterior motives at work.....Discuss. :loneranger:

nspindel

Yes. It's not cheap, never said it was.

No ulterior motives. Saftgeek was informed by Onkyo tech support that his amp is not common ground. If that's the case, he needs an AI-1 in order for his SDA's to be SDA's. If his amp is in fact common ground, then that changes quite a bit. If that's the case, I would not advise starting out with a dreadnought at this point, there are more important things to pursue. I don't know anything about the Onkyo M501, so I won't pass any judgement on whether he'd be better off with a different amp.

FTGV

nspindel wrote: »

Saftgeek was informed by Onkyo tech support that his amp is not common ground.

According to the schematic they were in error.

nspindel

If that's accurate, that changes a lot. My advice to build an AI-1 was based on the information provided by Onkyo.

F1nut

Saftgeek,

This is my opinion and mine alone. While some might think that $600.00 for a pair of 1990 Studio 1C's (yes, Polk still made 1C's in 1990) is on the high side, you have to take a few things into account. Condition, being stored for that length of time they should be damn near brand new. Location, you don't have to pay for shipping, so factor that into the price. Availability, they don't make these anymore and you've always wanted a pair of SDA's. Money, you can't take it with you and for $600.00 you're not going to find another pair of speakers that can top these. Upgrades and tweaks, never factor what you might end up spending on those things into what you pay for a piece of gear.

Of course, if you can get them for less, all the better, but to me the asking price shouldn't be a deal breaker considering the above.

About the magnets shifting, I've never had that problem and I've bought/sold a lot of SDA drivers/speakers over the years. As far as I'm concerned, it's a non-factor. That said, I recommend transporting them on their backs with all the drivers/PR's left mounted in the cabinets.

Welcome to Club Polk!

F1nut

nspindel

As usually, Jesse makes very valid points. The modifications that we do to these speakers are fairly "defined" in that there are right things to do, wrong things to do, right ways to do them, wrong ways to do them, etc. And for parts that are readily available, there are cheap prices and expensive prices. But when it comes to 25-year old speakers, I suppose value is completely subjective. I'm a bit spoiled because I live in the NYC area, which is a large enough and populated enough marketplace that I can rely on speakers popping up for sale regularly enough that I can afford to be a bit picky when it comes to price. $600 for stock 1C's does sound expensive to me, and I would try to talk him down as much as I could. But if these things are in band new condition and you fall in love on the spot, I can understand not wanting to walk away from them over a few hundred. Only you can decide what they are worth to you.

Saftgeek

I have to be honest with all of you... I have never had this much, or this quality of support from any forum. I cannot tell you how nice it is to just read the back and forth, reasoning and explanations... It's just awesome. Thank you all again. The statement about location is very true and makes sense. I only have an hours drive. More than likely this won't be the case again. I live in a smallish, 47k, town about 2 hours from anything with any size. Condition is subjective. I am expecting to find these in a little less than mint condition... Hopefully our definition of "mint" is the same.

I can tell the owner is attached to them and very aware of what he paid for them. I can totally relate. I have a hard time parting with a lot of stuff i've paid top dollar for and refuse to let it go for a little of nothing. I'm not going to appear on Hoarders yet but if I don't start letting some of my old hobby stuff go, who knows...

That is really good news about the amp. I'm going to ohm out the neg speaker terminals on my receiver to see how they look. Even if I have to upgrade I believe I caught some kind of SDA sickness from you guys and I've got an itch that needs scratched. I sure didn't need another expensive hobby but like someone said, you can't take it with you...

Thanks again everyone for the great discussion!

-Saftgeek

heiney9

If they are still in the box and in minty shape, offer $400 and go from there. If you can get them for $500 then go for it. As Jesse says, local is a huge deal and worth paying extra for. It would be atleast $150-200 to have those shipped or a trip across country for you if they weren't local so you have to factor that into the cost.

It also doesn't matter what they cost new, there is a market price and he's at the very upper end or over it. The Studio versions were even less expensive than the standard version.

H9

EndersShadow

Also a great website to read up on stuff is here: http://vr3mods.com/LCSDAUpgrade.html

This site is owned by a forum member (VR3) who compiled a list of the threads for modifying different SDA's. It will save you a bunch of time in searching this site for information.

As an aside VR3 makes upgraded SDA crossovers using another forum members circuit boards made specifically for certain SDA's. If you stick around awhile (as I am sure you will ) you will see lots of his work around. I mention that simply so you know that that site I liked to is a trusted site for information (since most of it links back here anyway) by a fellow trusted forum member.

It should help you get your "learn on" about the SDA's and all the fun stuff you can do to them .

Saftgeek

Thanks ender for the link. I will most definitely get my learn on. Why were the studio versions less expensive? Just because they had hard side panels? Is there any sound difference or less quality in any of the components?

Saftgeek-

drumminman

teekay0007 wrote: »

OK, so isn't the AI-1 dreadnaught transformer, at a minimum, almost $300? Then, doesn't one still need a chassis, etc. even to get started? :question:

With this in mind, wouldn't the respectable thing to do be to suggest that Saftgeek (an SDA newbie, that you know already has a common-ground amp) try out his new speakers first with what he has before diving down a mighty deep rabbit hole without knowing much about where he's going? Further, I've got the feeling that the Onkyo M501 isn't an amp that would make it into the same room as the gear of most of the people chiming in on this discussion. It would probably make more sense then that if this amp is not adequate for the job at hand that an extra $300 (or more) added to the "new amp fund" would probably do more for speaker performance improvement than the AI-1 with the old amp.

Just a sideline observation of possibly some ulterior motives at work.....Discuss. :loneranger:

The 1000VA Avel-Lindberg is expensive, probably a little less than $300 depending on how many are ordered at one time. That's because it's custom made.

However, the 800VA A-L transformer is a stock item and is $127 shipped IIRC. Much cheaper and also quite good. I've been using this one with very good results on my common ground amp. I'm planning on replacing it with the 1000VA based on others positive experiences though.

heiney9

Saftgeek wrote: »

Thanks ender for the link. I will most definitely get my learn on. Why were the studio versions less expensive? Just because they had hard side panels? Is there any sound difference or less quality in any of the components?

Saftgeek-

The cabinet construction and materials are a little cheaper more in materials not so much construction. Some have heard differences, but they are subtle. I prefer the look of the standard cabinets SDA 1C's.

Components are exactly the same.

H9

chandler9a

FWIW I paid a little lest than $650 for my 1C's but they were completely modded and I was able to sell some of the original stuff they came with, and they were local which is rare for my parts. Totally worth it IMO...

With that said, F1 made some good points to think about, if you really want them and they are hard to come by, it may be worth it for you. The price, original and good condition is a little high but you will not find a $600 pair of speakers sounding like that new today.

Good luck with the process and hopefully you can get them for a good deal.

GospelTruth

Saftgeek-

Hey, welcome to the forum. I've only been on for a little while and there is a ton of information to help you along. I think everyone here has made some excellent comments. It really does come down to how much you are willing to pay for something that you want and it's availability.

Local is a big plus for two reasons in my opinion. One you don't pay for the shipping, just the gas to get there and back. Second, you control how they are shipped. I would have a hard time trusting some shipping company to send these type of speakers across country - but that's just me.

If you plan on having these as your first and potentially last set of SDAs, then $600 may not be an issue. However, if you are just wanting to get into SDAs and see how they sound and maybe even move up to a bigger model someday I don't think you'll get anywhere near that $600 back when trying to resell them. Of course that also depends on how much disposable income you have and whether you care about that or not.

Lastly, I do a lot of scanning on Craigslist all over the country. I did a lot of comparisons when searching for my SDAs and you can get a feel price values. If this is the same set that's posted on either the St. Louis or Springfield Craiglist, just know that this set has been out there for awhile and they haven't sold. My opinion is that they aren't selling because they are priced to high. Items that are priced right tend to go fairly quickly - and by "right", I don't mean below market value. $300-$400 would be a good asking price in my opinion. I think you do have some bargaining power as they have been up awhile, unless he just won't sell them for anything less (as he stated in the Craigslist I saw). My thoughts are he will be hanging onto them awhile longer at that price if you don't pick them up.

nspindel

If they've been on Craigslist for a while, and haven't sold, and you plop four Benjamins down in front of him and say that's your best offer, I suspect they will sell. I doubt you two would end up being drinking buddies after that, but you're out for a set of speakers, not a drinking buddy.

Saftgeek

I've been trying to keep my location and the speakers' location a secret but you are correct, these are on CL in St Louis. I was planning to call him and do exactly what you said. My guess is he has no idea what kind of mods, or what the cost, are available for these. Not sure how the dance will go but.... Stay tuned!

-Saftgeek

gdb

Check them out, leave a "standing offer" of $450.00 if he doesn't accept it immediately. I suspect that you'll hear from him sooner rather than later. If he's Googled Polk SDA1-C , he may well be reading this thread at the same time as you are !

teekay0007

Saftgeek, no worries on disclosing your location on this. Only a dog of a CP member would swoop in on your action after seeing how pumped you are about this. I think just about all members here would give you first refusal on the deal before stepping in.

Also, in taking a look on your local CL listings, I saw a couple of sweet centers - both great for SDA-anchored setups - listed for sale there too. Check out the CS400i (listed on the 18th - "Polk Home Theater") and the CS350-LS (listed on the 19th - "Polk center and surrounds"). My first pick - have one! - of the two would be the 400, but I think many others here have the 350 with their SDAs and are equally as happy. Both of those listings do have them as part of package deals, but they may be willing to split them up - actually, those surrounds listed might work really well for you too. :cool: Both listings are from Hawk Point, MO - is that anywhere near you?

You were warned to hold onto your wallet here, right? :cheesygrin:

Schurkey

I've seen SRS 2s sell in the $400--$600 dollar range. Mostly, the sellers aren't sharp enough to differentiate between blade/blade vs. pin/blade, it's hard to know if the units are 1B- or 1C-based.

I've missed out on SRS 2.3s in the $700--$900 dollar range, because I was traveling in the area but could not connect with the seller.

The issues are Time and Distance. (Is is likely that there will be a better deal in your area in the near future?)

Having watched eBay and Craigslist for a couple of years, I have yet to see a pair of SDAs of ANY model, in ANY condition within 250 miles of me. And that sort of thing can make all the difference.