Mp3s for Audiophiles - An Oxymoron?

stretchl

Greetings, all.

I'm new to the forum and certainly don't consider myself an audiophile (this damned tinnitus gets in the way), though I enjoy music a lot and have relatively (well relative to my wife) discriminating tastes.

So I have a question -

Do any of you folks who are serious audiophiles listen to Mp3s, or is there too much subtlety lost there from the get go to bother running it through the systems you use?

I'll confess that I'm hooked on the convenience of having my music in iCloud.:loneranger:

Thanks!

Drenis

The majority of users use a lossless based audio format such as FLAC, ALAC (Apple users) and WAV even. MP3 is a lossy format and doesn't successfully allow the song to be as equal quality to a lossless format.

So while your convenience is nice, using lossless formats doesn't mean you can;t have it in a convenient nature. There are many ways for even Apple users to enjoy the convenience using a lossless format and enjoying ALL of the music. Not just 5% of it. :razz:

bikerboy

I have all the music I can rip in flac files and convert them to 320 kb mp3s to a thumbdrive for the car. The car is a wrx so not the quietest car for music listening. In the home its flac from the computer or from the disc. I dont want to have to re-rip all my music again so I wanted it in a lossless format. Some of my friends will give me mp3 copies and it just doesnt have the same impact or openness that the flac file can have.

F1nut

Do any of you folks who are serious audiophiles listen to Mp3s

Never.

Toolfan66

I gave up mp3's with the death of napster..

Thank god I found the light!! The lighter wallet that is!!

11tsteve

i chose AIFF format ( using dBpoweramp for ripping) for my cloud drive because there are people in my house who will not give up Itunes. even on my crappy equipment i can now hear the difference between them and mp3. needless to say, i now have a lot of cds to buy to replace the mp3's i don't want to hear anymore.

stretchl

Great food for thought! Thanks!

zingo

Apple Lossless is the best way to say Apple/iTunes friendly and maintain good sound quality.

headrott

The only way I would listen to an MP3 or download anything would be if I cannot get a song any other way.

CD/SACD/Reel To Reel/LP all the way for me, thank you.:biggrin:

Bobsama

For home systems, certainly not. There is some music that I have only ever found in MP3, in which case I'll use the MP3s. But for what I can find lossless, I use lossless. I do have an iPod (a 16GB Nano 4th gen) that I use primarily in the car or with lower-end headphones (Koss PortaPros). When you're in a car, the losses are far less noticeable especially once road noise is factored in. That said, I usually use 320kbps MP3's for that.

That said, I don't use iTunes on a regular basis. It's a requirement to sync my iPod, but I rarely sync it so it's less of an issue. My primary listening setup is Foobar2000 with ASIO4All to an external DAC (Little Dot DAC_I) to a tube headphone amplifier (Little Dot MK IV).

mantis

Apple Lossless with a good DAC can make for a wonderful source for any High end 2 channel system. A Sonos player and a DAC also does a very good job. I have found many Audiophiles going this route.

tonyb

mantis wrote: »

Apple Lossless with a good DAC can make for a wonderful source for any High end 2 channel system. A Sonos player and a DAC also does a very good job. I have found many Audiophiles going this route.

Absolutely Dan. The Sonos/SB route with a good dac and lossless files is also about as easy as it gets too for all family members to enjoy.

We audiophiles, in my opinion anyway, are constantly chasing down those subtle improvements to sound quality. I sure can agree that a bunch of subtle improvements can become a big one when added together but at some point the sound has to be pleasing enough to the user that you start to just enjoy the tunes and stop spending big bucks for minimal improvement. At what point that happens of course varies with different folks. It's just as easy to be satisfied with a 500 buck system for some while others need to spend 20 g's to be satisfied. A sonos or squeezebox, with a good dac imho can end the merrygo round for alot of people.

SRTer

I have deleted all of my MP3 and started over with all Apple Lossless Rips. I have purchased a iPhone 4, 120 Gig iPod Classic, and a 160 Gig iPod Classic.

I run my house with Pio Elite SC-35 and a VSX-23 which all are made to work great with the iPod/iPhone. The SC-35 had Freescale + Texas Instuments Aureus™ 192K/24-Bit DACs. The VSX-23 has a Wolfson WM8728 192 kHz / 24-bit DAC. Both of these play the Apple Lossless rips I have created on my laptop very nicely thru my Polk Audio speakers.

I have not experimented with tying other stand alone DAC's but I only listen to Apple Lossless thur the AVR. I don't stream or try anything else.

SRTer

I forgot, I also run my car with iPods and Apple Lossles tracks thru a Kenwood Excelon DNX8120 which has a 24-Bit D-A Converter a is built for the iPod and iPhone.

markmarc

Lossless + iTunes + PureMusic + quality DAC = a wonderful musical experience.

falconcry72

Lossless only for the 2-channel rig. Period.

Having said that, I will tell you from first hand experience that a high bit-rate MP3 played through a good DAC will sound better than a lossless version of the same file played through a crappy DAC. Of course, lossless files through a good DAC is the way to go.

Face

Lossless, WAV, and even some DSD for PC playback. Streaming and MP3's are for background music only.

steveinaz

I dunno, is AM radio for audiophiles an oxymoron? Lossy codecs have no place in hi-fi systems; no more than bias ply tires have a place on Corvettes. Don't we struggle enough with 16/44? Just my opinion.

tonyb

I dunno Steve, don't be so hard on 16/44......some redbook cd's can be as good and even better than some SACD's.

newrival

zingo wrote: »

Apple Lossless is the best way to say Apple/iTunes friendly and maintain good sound quality.

you can get itunes to play just about any file, you just won't be able to transfer them to your Ipod/iphone/etc without conversion

BentMike

I will listen to mp3s, no problem. I listen primarily to Spotify, a bump up from Rhapsody in content. I have a bunch of mp3s (won't pirate) used in the car mostly, or when Spotify doesn't have it. IMO, the best music in the world I haven't heard yet. Always looking, on a budget.

What makes music for me is the lyrics, and arrangement, artists and their performance. Production can be crap and the artist still transports you. I just watched some Nina Simone on youtube, case in point. Some great performances have only been captured in weak recordings. Jonny Lang is Wandering This World right now - mp3. It is great stuff. You can't fool me.

I am not audiophile, clearly, but I really like music.

This won't stop me from building speakers and stands, rebuilding Xovers, trying to mod amps, and so on. And trying to learn the how to's, listening carefully. But, I simply refuse to be picky about musical production - I WILL NOT let that get in the way of my enjoyment of the music, unless it is very distracting. Mp3's of a decent performances are far from unlistenable. Listening to music is not a contest. So I win every time.

falconcry72

BentMike wrote: »

I will listen to mp3s, no problem. I listen primarily to Spotify, a bump up from Rhapsody in content. I have a bunch of mp3s (won't pirate) used in the car mostly, or when Spotify doesn't have it. IMO, the best music in the world I haven't heard yet. Always looking, on a budget.

What makes music for me is the lyrics, and arrangement, artists and their performance. Production can be crap and the artist still transports you. I just watched some Nina Simone on youtube, case in point. Some great performances have only been captured in weak recordings. Jonny Lang is Wandering This World right now - mp3. It is great stuff. You can't fool me.

I am not audiophile, clearly, but I really like music.

This won't stop me from building speakers and stands, rebuilding Xovers, trying to mod amps, and so on. And trying to learn the how to's, listening carefully. But, I simply refuse to be picky about musical production - I WILL NOT let that get in the way of my enjoyment of the music, unless it is very distracting. Mp3's of a decent performances are far from unlistenable. Listening to music is not a contest. So I win every time.

Welcome to CP, Mike!:biggrin: Great forum... excellent info here.

I get where you're coming from, and I like where you're coming from;

however,

I think you're missing the point. This thread is about choice. We all agree that it is better for recorded music to exist than it is for recorded music to not exist, so it can be reasonably assumed that we are discussing a specific territory within which recorded music does exist. Within this territory, where recordings of music do exist, there are sometimes choices about format and sometimes not. I think we'd all agree that a cracked, dirty, wax phonographical recording of sound is 100% better than no recording of that sound whatsoever, but, for a large percentage of recorded sound, there exist multiple formats of conveyance. When given the choice between a lossless format of conveyance and a lossy format of conveyance, lossless is always the answer. Period.

Q: Do I own mp3's? A: Yes.

Q: Do I listen to them? A: Absolutely

Q: Do I enjoy them? A: Absolutely

Q: Would I ever limit myself to owning the mp3 version of a recording that I cared about when a lossless version is available? A: Absolutely Not.



Just a quick word about the "production quality" you mentioned above:

- production quality is up to the artist; there ain't nothin' we can do about it, and it has nothing to do with format of conveyance. The format issue of Lossless vs. Lossy is about reproduction quality, not production quality. Do you want to hear what the artist intended, or do you want to hear something slightly less?

Given the choice, I choose lossless.

F1nut

BentMike wrote: »

What makes music for me is the lyrics, and arrangement, artists and their performance. Production can be crap and the artist still transports you.

If the production is crap it doesn't transport me to anywhere other than turning it off.

tonyb

Agreed ^^^^

While good music has many componants, it's the whole combination that moves you. A bad recording, no matter how good the lyrics are, will never get played around my house unless it's just for background music. Mp3 has it's place I guess, but not in the "moves me" catagory.

HHStuart

I listen to mp3's on my Nook tablet. I still enjoy them even if it is not the best audio. On vacation, I don't have access to my own setup but I can still enjoy some tunes until I get back. Some of them definitely "move me". My latest kicks are Adele, Norah Jones and Amy Winehouse.

BentMike

falconcry72 wrote: »

Welcome to CP, Mike!:biggrin: Great forum... excellent info here.

I get where you're coming from, and I like where you're coming from;

however,

I think you're missing the point. This thread is about choice.

I read all the prior comments, and I wasn't getting much feeling like choice had a voice. (Did two people actually admit listening to mp3s?) This audiophile business all sounds very judgmental, and strict. Not much joy in it. Lots of reason to argue.

I am telling it like it is, the kind of subtleties that audiophiles natter on about are simply distractions from being moved. If you choose not to enjoy a piece of music for any reason, I think it is a mistake. Why not choose otherwise? The music is there, go for it, don't let any thoughts interfere with the enjoyment of it. Audiophilia is supposed to be a love of music, not an annoyance or dislike of all but a tiny subset. Allowing attachment to the hardware to undermine the experience? It's just weird to me.

I want to wipe that stuff from my mind when I am listening to music. I want to be completely open to whatever is there, regardless of whether the pre is a little cold this morning, the rugs are out for cleaning, or there is a chainsaw running next door. If I am listening to the anger and sadness in Nina Simone's voice in See Line Woman, how much a 40Hz bass note stands out on this or that speaker or preamp, or even whether it is two channels or one, let alone lossless recording technology, I want to have the presence of mind and powers of concentration to stay with the performance for what the performance is.

Most recordings are NOT what the artist wants, it is what they settle for, or are forced to endure, and many times the recording is completely out of their hands (live music in particular, and things like youtube especially). This idea of perfect reproduction is an illusion. There isn't any authority or reference, because none of us were there or can accurately recollect after the fact. Memory is simply not that good. I definitely support anyone's right to dislike how a piece sounds, but I think it is an unfortunate choice. Better to just let thoughts like that pass as quickly as possible.

I can listen to Caruso through all manner of pops and cracks and still find reason for amazement. That seems like the only sensible way to approach it. Thinking back over it I can clearly choose to think about the damage to the vinyl, or the incredible sound of his voice. Which one makes sense? I think about the noise, I am unhappy, I think about the singing of it, I am happy. I prefer door number two.

Gosh, I am glad I got that off my chest.

BM

falconcry72

BentMike wrote: »

I read all the prior comments, and I wasn't getting much feeling like choice had a voice. (Did two people actually admit listening to mp3s?) This audiophile business all sounds very judgmental, and strict. Not much joy in it. Lots of reason to argue.

I am telling it like it is, the kind of subtleties that audiophiles natter on about are simply distractions from being moved. If you choose not to enjoy a piece of music for any reason, I think it is a mistake. Why not choose otherwise? The music is there, go for it, don't let any thoughts interfere with the enjoyment of it. Audiophilia is supposed to be a love of music, not an annoyance or dislike of all but a tiny subset. Allowing attachment to the hardware to undermine the experience? It's just weird to me.

I want to wipe that stuff from my mind when I am listening to music. I want to be completely open to whatever is there, regardless of whether the pre is a little cold this morning, the rugs are out for cleaning, or there is a chainsaw running next door. If I am listening to the anger and sadness in Nina Simone's voice in See Line Woman, how much a 40Hz bass note stands out on this or that speaker or preamp, or even whether it is two channels or one, let alone lossless recording technology, I want to have the presence of mind and powers of concentration to stay with the performance for what the performance is.

Most recordings are NOT what the artist wants, it is what they settle for, or are forced to endure, and many times the recording is completely out of their hands (live music in particular, and things like youtube especially). This idea of perfect reproduction is an illusion. There isn't any authority or reference, because none of us were there or can accurately recollect after the fact. Memory is simply not that good. I definitely support anyone's right to dislike how a piece sounds, but I think it is an unfortunate choice. Better to just let thoughts like that pass as quickly as possible.

I can listen to Caruso through all manner of pops and cracks and still find reason for amazement. That seems like the only sensible way to approach it. Thinking back over it I can clearly choose to think about the damage to the vinyl, or the incredible sound of his voice. Which one makes sense? I think about the noise, I am unhappy, I think about the singing of it, I am happy. I prefer door number two.

Gosh, I am glad I got that off my chest.

BM

BM, I feel you, man. I got more chills listening to music in my old beat up minivan on road trips than I do on my current 2-channel system, which obviously sounds a lot better.

That said, I think you're arguing a much larger point than what was asked here. This thread is about mp3's and sound quality; that's it.

I mean, if someone handed you (2) identical vinyl records, but one was scuffed up and one was clean, would you choose to listen to the more messed up one? If so, I'm not sure what value you'll be able to contribute to the OP here.

This forum exists to help people make their systems sound better; if your point is that people shouldn't care about how their system sounds, then I'm not sure if this is the right place for you to contribute.

Not trying to be difficult, but you gotta be aware of your surroundings. This forum helps people tweak stuff that you apparently don't think people should be tweaking... maybe find a forum that's all about music instead of equipment?

I also get the sense that you think that your aproach to listening to music is the "right" one. All I got to say is, different strokes for different folks. The folks here enjoy tweaking their systems and evaluating them in a sometimes clinical way; it's fun for us.

Nothin' wrong with finding a fun hobby.

steveinaz

I can enjoy music on a transistor radio, but I think the point is that with lossless codecs available, cheap HDD space, why mess with Mp3? Background pool/patio/garage music? Sure--but serious listening? Nah.

11tsteve

BentMike wrote: »

I am telling it like it is, the kind of subtleties that audiophiles natter on about are simply distractions from being moved. If you choose not to enjoy a piece of music for any reason, I think it is a mistake. Why not choose otherwise? The music is there, go for it, don't let any thoughts interfere with the enjoyment of it. Audiophilia is supposed to be a love of music, not an annoyance or dislike of all but a tiny subset. Allowing attachment to the hardware to undermine the experience? It's just weird to me.

BM

it is not the love of the hardware undermining the experience. people are trying to create the best system they can, to produce the best life-like reproduction of recorded music that they can given their budget. its not about the hardware, its about the reproduction transporting you past the hardware, to immerse one's self so far into the recording it fills the space well beyond the speakers.
i have loved music all of my life and have been somewhat of a musician, one way or another, for a good portion of it as well. its weird to me people are willing to settle for less.

BentMike

Falconcry,

You are being nice to me as I rain on the parade.

Here is the origination of the thread:

"Do any of you folks who are serious audiophiles listen to Mp3s, or is there too much subtlety lost there from the get go to bother running it through the systems you use?"

I felt compelled to defend mp3 (I suppose I should STFU since I don't claim or aspire to audiophilia), I get a great deal of enjoyment from them. If nothing else the joy comes fast and cheap, serves many more people.

I do not enjoy storing, caring for, or messing with vinyl or CDs. I want to "thumb" through albums looking for what really floats my boat. I can peruse 30 songs before I can cue up and listen to a couple cuts on vinyl. It is better on CD, but I can't afford to buy 3 CD for every song I really like. (When I look through the albums I listened to in the 70's that is about how the numbers crunch). Working 12 hour days will do this to you.

Also, I like world music, electro tango, weird mixes and folk music in foreign languages, etc. I like, gods forbid, electronic music. I often can't lay hands on these easily. But there they are in Pandora and Spoitfy at the mere push of a virtual button.

There is a limit to how many times I can hear most tracks. Some really nice ones get repeated, and for years; but mostly I am interested in hearing something similar, but not the same. The online sources are just great at helping find the influences of an artist. I am regularly reading the bio, calling up wiki, searching for names mentioned there, then locating their tracks. The sound quality on youtube truly sucks, but I still have a lot of fun there - and I learn stuff by not disallowing youtube as a source of music.

As far as audio quality goes, just over the horizon, down Moore's Law Way, is true fidelity AND convenience. The wait won't be long. Maybe they will be mp7's, but they will surely be good.

As far as the hobby thing goes, I am very much with you there. Limited time and budget will save me from myself.

I like good budget equipment. Ferreting out deals is fun. The Crown D Series is a good way for me to learn something about refurbishing and modding amps (they are a good buy and ubiquitous). I would like to build a pre, and gainclones look like a neat hobby. Ijust learned how to resurrect disassembled Monitor 5 woofers (dang those are strong magnets). I can see learning to fix cones. Right now I am playing with some big cherry logs and little sandbags to make some stands. It will be fun packaging the amp, preamp, CD player stack so it isn't obtrusive in the living room. There is no home theater in my future, we don't do TV, though the laptop has a big-a55 monitor for streaming Netflix. Maybe there is a tube thingy in my future.

I can't justify much more than the little Monitor 5s. They are near to overpowering the space as it is.

I really do get it, but...me, I can't justify but so much of this. I have a lot of things to do and musically I just want a steady stream of new music - mp3s are currently the best way to get that. Honestly, I could not afford to buy all the music I can get from Spotify and Pandora. Too much messing around with equipment, and round flat things will hold me back, too.

'nuff said for now. BM

falconcry72

BentMike wrote: »

Falconcry,

You are being nice to me as I rain on the parade.

lol, hey man, i've been there.

...I suppose I should STFU since I don't claim or aspire to audiophilia...

Bingo! jk, just thought it was funny.:biggrin:

...I do not enjoy storing, caring for, or messing with vinyl or CDs. I want to "thumb" through albums looking for what really floats my boat. I can peruse 30 songs before I can cue up and listen to a couple cuts on vinyl...

Same here, man! I went to computer-based audio a couple years ago, and I haven't looked back. I explore way more of my library this way than I even would with CD's or vinyl... but I do it with lossless files like FLAC instead of mp3's.


Point is, I listened to mp3's on my way to work today in my car. Enjoyed the hell out of it. mp3's have a place... but that place is NOT the 2-channel rig that I have dedicated a ton of time and money into tweaking to be just exactly perfect. Playing mp3's on that rig is, to me, like spending a decade restoring a Shelby Cobra and then dropping in a Geo Metro engine at the last second.