How does SDA CRS compare with 2B and other SDA's in general?

heiney9

When I unplug the SDA cable, they don't sound all that great. Your initial statement was pretty vague, but the above statement where you say "similar tonal characteristics", I can agree with. Still completely different speakers when used as intended and sound nothing alike side by side. Meaning I would never mistake a Monitor speaker for an SDA speaker.

H9

heiney9

Mystery the way you have things set-up is probably causing your issue. I understand space constraints and I am a purist, meaning one pair of speakers on proper stands in the proper position. I could never deal with that set-up, but that's just me and we are all different. The way they are set-up is not optimal at all and probably why they don't sound right. The CRS' are way too far out in the room and they need a rear wall for proper bass reinforcement, not two more pairs of speakers behind them.

The way the M7's are is simply horrible for high fidelity.

Mystery

heiney9 wrote: »

When I unplug the SDA cable, they don't sound all that great. Your initial statement was pretty vague, but the above statement where you say "similar tonal characteristics", I can agree with. Still completely different speakers when used as intended and sound nothing alike side by side. Meaning I would never mistake a Monitor speaker for an SDA speaker.

H9

Could you describe how the SDA sounds? Meaning, when you hear same song in SDA vs monitor, what/where is the difference?
Does the music feel like hall/surround or more sizzles in SDA compared to Monitors or something subtle?
May be I need to train my ears to grab that difference.

heiney9

Actually, I am not trying to be mean, but that entire "stacked" speaker thing is just a wreck if you are doing any serious listening. Again, just giving my impressions and trying to help you understand why you're not hearing what all the fuss is about.

motorstereo

You'll never hear the sda effect with stacks like that. Take it from a guy who had a pair of 2.3's stacked on top of a pair of klh 12's. It wasn't till I dismantled my stack that I was actually able to get pinpoint imaging and that broad and deep sda soundstage. Sda's need lots of breathing room and don't like other speakers in the same room and especially don't like being in a stack.

F1nut

You can see Advents behind the CRS+, Monitor 7's on top of Advents and monitor 4's on top of 7's.
There is a Niles SPS-6 speaker selector that is hooked up to the 3 pairs of Polk speakers.

What is with all those speakers stacked up? Pick one pair, set them up correctly and get rid of that selector.

As for your CRS+'s, again the set up is horrible. They are too far away from the back wall, too low to the ground, in front of other speakers and on top of yet another pair. You are sitting too far away for the distance between the SDA's. Regardless of all that is wrong with your set up, you should still be getting the SDA sound, so have you checked that the left speaker is on the left side as you look at them and vice versa? Have you checked that all the drivers are working, how about correct polarity, not only with your cables, but also the binding posts. The red post on left, black on right.

TennMan

Mystery wrote: »

Could you describe how the SDA sounds? Meaning, when you hear same song in SDA vs monitor, what/where is the difference?
Does the music feel like hall/surround or more sizzles in SDA compared to Monitors or something subtle?
May be I need to train my ears to grab that difference.

I had a similar problem with my CRS+ speakers when I first got them. Like you, I could not hear the SDA sound. My problem turned out to be the polarity on one of the MW drivers inside one of the speakers was wired incorrectly. I'll bet you have a polarity problem either inside the speaker or between the speaker and the amp. Best way to find it is by testing each speaker with a 1-1/2 volt battery and observing if all the MWs move the same direction. They should. Here is the thread that documents what I went through in my search for the SDA sound in my CRS+ speakers.

Here is what I wrote about how the SDA CRS+ speakers sounded compared to my monitor 10Bs. I think you will find it helpful.

... When you read this keep in mind that I'm a newbie to SDAs and my CRS+ are the only SDA speakers I have ever heard. I may be completely off base in describing SDAs in general. This is just my feelings about my new pair of speakers... nothing else. I apologize for this ending up being so long.

I listened to my CRS very little with the SL2000 tweeters installed before I swapped them out with the RDO-194s from my 10Bs. The SL2000 tweeters installed from the factory in the CRS have a very similar sound to SL2000s that come in 10Bs so I already knew I preferred the sound of the 194s.

Without the IC cable hooked up I find my 10Bs and the CRS to sound very similar in the high and mid range. To me the 10s have a fuller sounding bass compared to the CRS+. I've had my 10s a little over a year and never felt a need for more bass, even though I'm sure OldmanSRS is correct when he says they are lacking below 40hz. I sort of expected less bass from the CRS because of the smaller cabinet size. The CRS speakers seem to have a more defined and tighter bass compared to the 10Bs but they leave me feeling like I need to add a little EQ to get me back to the bass I'm use to with my 10s. I prefer the low end of the 10s. I will probably be adding a sub soon.

With the IC cable hooked up the CRS+ adds a whole new dimension to the sound. It's like going from standard TV to HD. I won't say the difference is as dramatic as going from high definition TV to 3D TV but it's close. I reeeeally like it. OldmanSRS did a good job of describing how the SDA changes the sound so I won't try to cover that again. Even with the IC cable hooked up I still feel I need more bass but the tradeoff of bass for the SDA sound is a good one since a sub should easily fix that. Or... maybe a pair of 2Bs would be a better fix.

I'm not quite there yet with my setup, which is still exactly what it was with the 10Bs. The CRS cabinets are 6 feet apart. There is about 7-1/2 feet between the tweeters. I'm sitting back from them about 12-1/2 feet (measured to my ears). That puts me out of the ideal range for the sweet spot. However, with that setup what I hear is still very pleasing and gives a wide and airy feeling to the music. The speakers seem to disappear and are no longer the limiting factor in where the sound of instruments originates. Vocals seem to come from more focused locations. I don't get the full 90* wrap around effect like OldmanSRS describes. My room is 20 feet wide and when listening to the 10s my sound stage is just to the outside edge of the speakers, or about 10 feet wide, with some of the highs occasionally extending a few feet more outside of that. With the CRS the sound seems to fill the front half of the room and sometimes extends beyond the walls. I'm not getting the 90* wraparound effect. I'm getting probably a 45* degree wrap around and I'm very happy with it for now. Keep in mind I have never heard SDA speakers before.

Well, there you have my impressions of my 10Bs in comparison to my CRS+. I's about the best I could do with my limited audio vocabulary and the limited amount of time I've had to listen to the CRS+ speakers.

Mystery

heiney9 wrote: »

Mystery the way you have things set-up is probably causing your issue. I understand space constraints and I am a purist, meaning one pair of speakers on proper stands in the proper position. I could never deal with that set-up, but that's just me and we are all different. The way they are set-up is not optimal at all and probably why they don't sound right. The CRS' are way too far out in the room and they need a rear wall for proper bass reinforcement, not two more pairs of speakers behind them.
The way the M7's are is simply horrible for high fidelity.

That could very well be. I'll have to work on culling the herd.
Bass reinforcement is not desired currently due to neighbors. :sad:
So what's ideal setup for M7's?

motorstereo wrote: »

You'll never hear the sda effect with stacks like that. Take it from a guy who had a pair of 2.3's stacked on top of a pair of klh 12's. It wasn't till I dismantled my stack that I was actually able to get pinpoint imaging and that broad and deep sda soundstage. Sda's need lots of breathing room and don't like other speakers in the same room and especially don't like being in a stack.

Point taken but are you saying not to use a speaker as stand even if that is not being used?

F1nut wrote: »

What is with all those speakers stacked up? Pick one pair, set them up correctly and get rid of that selector.

As for your CRS+'s, again the set up is horrible. They are too far away from the back wall, too low to the ground, in front of other speakers and on top of yet another pair. You are sitting too far away for the distance between the SDA's. Regardless of all that is wrong with your set up, you should still be getting the SDA sound, so have you checked that the left speaker is on the left side as you look at them and vice versa? Have you checked that all the drivers are working, how about correct polarity, not only with your cables, but also the binding posts. The red post on left, black on right.

Picking one pair is very hard. I listen to Advents and I like them; then I listen to M7's and I like them too. I know I really need to sell most of them. I'll do more A/B with M7 and CRS+ and get rid of one pair or use them for surrounds and sell Advents.
The speaker selector is actually for M4's so we don't disturb neighbors in the evening/night as they don't have much bass. It's a town home and neighbors start banging walls even with low volume from M7's or Advents. :mad:

Yes, L/R speakers and cables are correct at least from amp to terminals.
I haven't checked all the inside drivers individually. Since one of the driver is dimensional, not sure how to test polarity from terminals.
All drivers do work. The outside drivers don't have the same volume and don't vibrate the same as inside but they do work and make sound.
When I move them back to the wall, can I use one of the speakers as stand or that's a no no?
Also, how high should they be?

TennMan wrote: »

I had a similar problem with my CRS+ speakers when I first got them. Like you, I could not hear the SDA sound. My problem turned out to be the polarity on one of the MW drivers inside one of the speakers was wired incorrectly. I'll bet you have a polarity problem either inside the speaker or between the speaker and the amp. Best way to find it is by testing each speaker with a 1-1/2 volt battery and observing if all the MWs move the same direction. They should. Here is the thread that documents what I went through in my search for the SDA sound in my CRS+ speakers.

Here is what I wrote about how the SDA CRS+ speakers sounded compared to my monitor 10Bs. I think you will find it helpful.

How did you check inside MW driver's polarity. If it's the dimensional driver, it only activates through the IC cable right?
Thanks for the thread link. I'll go through and see what I find.

Sorry for too many questions and thanks for suggestions.

TennMan

Mystery wrote: »

How did you check inside MW driver's polarity. If it's the dimensional driver, it only activates through the IC cable right?
Thanks for the thread link. I'll go through and see what I find.

Sorry for too many questions and thanks for suggestions.

No, both of the MW drivers do move without the cable. Do the battery test to determine if polarity on the MWs is correct.

Remove the grilles so you can see the drivers. Disconnect the speaker wires and the IC cable.

You will need a short piece of speaker wire connected to the speakers, and a 1-1/2 volt flashlight battery, size AA, C or D.

Do the following:

Connect the + battery terminal to the wire going to the red speaker terminal.

Momentarily connect the - battery terminal to the wire going to the black speaker terminal.

When you do that, both MW drivers should move outward.


If the above test works as it should, do the same test by reconnecting the speaker wires (not the IC) to the speakers, then remove the speaker wires from the amp and do the same test from there on the speaker wires (not the amp). You should get the same results. as above.

Let us know what you find.

Mr. Bubbles

Mystery wrote: »

Could you describe how the SDA sounds? Meaning, when you hear same song in SDA vs monitor, what/where is the difference?
Does the music feel like hall/surround or more sizzles in SDA compared to Monitors or something subtle?
May be I need to train my ears to grab that difference.

no need to train your ears, when you hear it you will know because your first instinct will be; "Hey I don't have a speaker over there" and then "Holy crap that is awesome!"

Normal speakers, no matter how good they sound, sound (at least somewhat) like the sound is coming primarily from 2 speakers. The SDA effect will sound like it is coming from a stage up to roughly 180 degrees wide; from your left to your right, with certain instruments in distinct places (like on the left wall several feet in front of the actual speaker itself, or likewise far to the right). It can also create a sense of depth from front to back. These effects vary greatly depending on the music you listen to and speaker as well as furniture positioning as related to your room and listening position.

Toolfan66

Boy you really need to get me over there. If you decide you don't want them I want first dibs


Using speakers as stands will absorb some of the sounds and ultimately be making sounds as well "Not Good" can you put some of those speakers in a closet or another room to store them in?

If you can clean up that area a little I can bring my stands over and I can help you see what they can do, I also can take a look at them and make sure everything looks good in and out of your speakers..

Mr. Bubbles

I would highly recommend taking Toolfan up on his offer.

Mystery

TennMan wrote: »

No, both of the MW drivers do move without the cable. Do the battery test to determine if polarity on the MWs is correct.
...
Let us know what you find.

Will do that to check if all drivers are in phase.
I have done that test before with other drivers.

Mr. Bubbles wrote: »

no need to train your ears, when you hear it you will know because your first instinct will be; "Hey I don't have a speaker over there" and then "Holy crap that is awesome!"

Normal speakers, no matter how good they sound, sound (at least somewhat) like the sound is coming primarily from 2 speakers. The SDA effect will sound like it is coming from a stage up to roughly 180 degrees wide; from your left to your right, with certain instruments in distinct places (like on the left wall several feet in front of the actual speaker itself, or likewise far to the right). It can also create a sense of depth from front to back. These effects vary greatly depending on the music you listen to and speaker as well as furniture positioning as related to your room and listening position.

Thanks! That's the SDA explanation I was looking for.
Normal speakers vary so much on the sound source feeling (imaging?).
When I first got 5B's, I felt like there is a wall of sound in front between the speakers but that didn't extend beyond the speakers. So, SDA should extend that wider/all over.

Toolfan66 wrote: »

Boy you really need to get me over there. If you decide you don't want them I want first dibs

Thanks for offer to help.
Sure you are 1st in line but I want to experience SDA effect first and then decide.
I have to re-arrange few things to hear what all the fuss is about.
Without clearing that room, we won't have a place for your stands either.
I have a pair of speaker stands around 22 inch high and 8 inch square on top that I can use if the height is okay for these.
I can move few speakers to another room. Hmm... that room already has 5 pair of speakers. :eek:
I should rotate them rather than stacking them all together.
One advantage of using speaker as stand is that it hides wires/cables behind them and looks clean.

Thanks.

evhudsons

The stand heights are fine, just make sure they are stable on top because if you drop a speaker you may separate the drivers which will destroy the individual drivers. I've done that. Ouch.

Put them on stands, make sure they face directly forward. If you have a tape measure or yard stick, make sure the front faces directly forward. It's tempting to toe them toward the listening position, but don't. You can have them forward but you will lose some bass. If that is not an issue having them forward is fine provided they are on stands facing forward. I don't have mine perfectly spaced in between but I still get a huge sound-stage. Mine are too far from each other, but I'm fine with my results. You will want the drivers at ear level, and your stands height wise are within that range.

In your pictures I noticed that your CRS is NOT aligned right! It's critical to the critical ear to have them even. If one is even an inch off it won't be a wonderful sound just maybe good. I've gone to the extreme of using a laser but you don't need that. It looks yours may be a foot in front or behind the other.

So try the stands first, align them perfectly on a flat plane, then carefully put the CRS on but make sure they won't fall off. Make sure they are perfectly planed as well.

then try. Having them out from the rear wall doesn't affect the sda much, it might even improve it, but the bass suffers.

Ask your wife or a friend to push in the sda interconnect cord while you are in the listening position. Have them unplug, then plug in the cord. You will appreciate the sound and the difference.

As DarqueKnight says, "careful and critical listening will cause your ears to evolve."

evhudsons

"money" by Pink Floyd. you will swear you have surround sound.

Mystery wrote: »

Did some listening with these and monitor 7's and still can't decide which one's better.
I was expecting a dramatic sound improvement in the SDA series from monitor series.

Are there some tracks, part of a song that can bring SDA effect easily?
Thanks

Joe08867

Anything off Tools Anema or Laterlus albums.

teekay0007

Mystery = Speaker Hoarder :cool:

Joe08867

Doesn't seem like a real Mystery to me...

Mystery

Thanks for "Money" and tools anema and laterlus album info...

teekay0007 wrote: »

Mystery = Speaker Hoarder :cool:

Hmm... I'm getting there... I was waiting for my 2nd room to fill up before getting that title but looks like I'm almost there.
I really need to bring the numbers down from this list:
ADS L620
Polkaudio Monitor 5
Polkaudio Monitor 4.6
KEF Chorale III
Audiovox Recoton AR9
OHM Model L
New Large Advents Utility
Polk Monitor 4
Allison AL-120
Advent Prodigy Tower
Def Tech C-1 Center
JBL SC-305 Center
Polk Monitor 7
JBL 2500 Bookshelf Speakers
Infinity Sterling SS 2002
Polk RTA 8TL
Infinity RS1000
Aztec Dulane Denver company
Phase Tech PC 80 single
JBL L166 Speakers
Polk SDA-CRS+
(WOW, counting them really make them seem a lot!)

---

+ bunch of old receivers... :eek:

evhudsons

There's no such thing as hoarding speakers. It's automatically categorized as a collection. Until the wife moves out and the camera crew shows up.

TennMan

Once you hear the SDAs working right and setup correctly you may not need all those other speakers.

newrival

I'm always perplexed by people who have a couple thousand dollars worth of $100 speakers. I say sell it all, get a nice set and be done with it.

motorstereo

newrival wrote: »

I'm always perplexed by people who have a couple thousand dollars worth of $100 speakers. I say sell it all, get a nice set and be done with it.

Agreed. I sold off all my excess gear and it gave me enough $$ to buy a modded pair of 1.2tl's. No new speakers have come into the house since they arrived last winter.

Mystery

DSkip wrote: »

Sometimes that's the gateway into better gear. I personally enjoyed my journey through Polk's history and it helped me discover what I really wanted out of a speaker. The great thing about low priced speakers is that they are low-risk investments and almost always get back what you put into them. I don't know if Mystery plans to sell them all, but I've had a revolving door for quite a while now to thin the herd.

+1
You are speaking my mind.
Until 9 months ago I had a plastic HTIB system and that also a low end Philips.
Now I've speakers of much better quality and as you said, it's always easy to sell these without loosing much or even make few bucks.
I am planning to sell most of them but not all as I like few pairs that really are good depending upon type of music.
I'd like to get 1.2's but I don't have matching space and I won't be able to play them even at their 20% until I get a house.
These CRS+ can get rid of few other Polks after all said and done.

Mr. Bubbles

evhudsons wrote: »

There's no such thing as hoarding speakers. It's automatically categorized as a collection. Until the wife moves out and the camera crew shows up.

My wife just happened to be sitting beside me and read this. She said she completely disagrees. Went on to say that her husband is a hoarder
But I guess it started downhill when I took over my daughters room and moved her back into the same room with her little sister. Last count was slightly over 100 pair. But I have sold a few since i made that count, but as she just so kindly pointed out, I bought a few as well. I call it a collection for the most part but that really is probably just under half of them. the others need repairs and to be sold to make a little money to cover other costs of this hobby. In my defense, however, ( save for a few special models) most were purchased from thrift stores, flea markets etc. I mean it's hard to turn down a set of JBL Minuette's for $3, or a pair of DCM TF600's for free, Advent's for $5.... I'd better stop. I have also found a couple of pair that I can find little about, such as the STR's. I wonder if MHardy knows anything about them.

Anyway she's not ready to leave or call the camera crews yet. At least i have them mostly organized. Lets just not get started on all the gear to go along with it.

Mr. Bubbles

DSkip wrote: »

Sometimes that's the gateway into better gear. I personally enjoyed my journey through Polk's history and it helped me discover what I really wanted out of a speaker. The great thing about low priced speakers is that they are low-risk investments and almost always get back what you put into them. I don't know if Mystery plans to sell them all, but I've had a revolving door for quite a while now to thin the herd.

Exactly, though I still have tons, had it not been for turning gear and speakers I would not have my SRS's or my 1.2TL's, or a few other high end pair that I rotate in and out and or use in the HT rig, etc. In fact selling the aforementioned JBL Minuettes was a major portion of the purchase price of the 1.2TL's with all the Carver and other gear I got along with them.

Having $100 speakers isn't too bad when you don't have nearly that in them and can turn them for near that.

Joe08867

Actually some of those are neat speakers. The JBL L66's are nice I love KEF Chorale III. I have had both and they were great for nearfield listening. Especially the JBL's.

Mystery

Okay did a quick check on polarity using 1.5v battery.
Found one problem. The L/R are switched in both speakers.
When tested with +ve, both woofers went inside.
Looks like the terminal red/black caps were swapped somehow.
Looking at them from back, mine had red terminal on the right side in both speakers.
All drivers went back on +ve test in both drivers so the speakers were in phase with each other but not from amp.
So, I took out the caps and now both red/+ve are on the left looking from the back.
Now, amp red goes with speaker red and drivers pop out on +ve test.

I tested with and without the IC cable and now I hear something different.
IC cable smooths out sound little bit as I hear more treble when disconnected.
Not enough time to do more test in the morning but it's a good start.

Thanks

F1nut

From two days ago.....

F1nut wrote:

Have you checked that all the drivers are working, how about correct polarity, not only with your cables, but also the binding posts. The red post on left, black on right.

Mystery

F1nut wrote: »

Have you checked that all the drivers are working, how about correct polarity, not only with your cables, but also the binding posts. The red post on left, black on right.

F1nut wrote: »

From two days ago.....

Thanks. Yes, you were right on target.
I just got jumbled up on too many things and finally checked them today.
After work, I'll listen more and try to find that SDA dimension.