Alternative Modifications
Drenis
Posts: 2,871
Over the weekend I think I read almost every thread here regarding information on modding the TL series speakers. I have to say that there is a wealth of knowledge here regarding these. From which brand of caps to use to how much of what type of sound absorption you apply to the cabinets. Anyways, there are a couple issues and I'm looking for some feedback.
1. Larry's Rings - I contacted Larry and learned that these have not been made for some time. I understand the reasoning behind these and applaud the concept. My question is, what can I use as an alternative if anything? While I've advised Larry here that I would be in for a set of rings for my speakers, the chances of finding a set for my exact model are slim to none I would assume. Suggestions?
2. Driver Gaskets - I've read of a couple different methods: Mortite, Armacell, brgman's gaskets. Given that I plan to mod these extensively and keep these, I thought about the last two options as I just would rather not work with mortite for its compound. They do not sell this Armacell product up here. Or at least, I haven't found a store that carries it. But I have found some alternatives such as: Foam Tape. Not sure if this would work equally? Seems so. I'm not even sure if brgman still makes his gaskets so this option is also not out.
3. Sound Absorption - I've read about the various, but common brands such as: Sound Barrier, No-Rez (Due to Trey) and Black Hole. Given that roughly half of the internal cabinet of the TL speakers should be covered with a choice material, I want to poll the pros and ask what you would use:
A. No-Rez only
B. Sonic Barrier only
C. Sonic Barrier for the back/No-Rez for the top and sides
D. No-Rez for the back/Sonic Barrier for the top and sides
Thinking a couple strips along the side of the cabinet about 2/3rd the length and a couple strips along the back with again, the same 2/3rd's length to consider (Top half) as well as the top. There have been some mixed threads about this topic and am unsure which product suits me best given the cost of this mod since one product is substantially cheaper than the other. Discuss?
I should have the new RDO198's in by the end of this week (fingers crossed). I would like to dynamat my baskets, JB weld my magnets and do the driver seals all at the same time as installing the new tweets.
1. Larry's Rings - I contacted Larry and learned that these have not been made for some time. I understand the reasoning behind these and applaud the concept. My question is, what can I use as an alternative if anything? While I've advised Larry here that I would be in for a set of rings for my speakers, the chances of finding a set for my exact model are slim to none I would assume. Suggestions?
2. Driver Gaskets - I've read of a couple different methods: Mortite, Armacell, brgman's gaskets. Given that I plan to mod these extensively and keep these, I thought about the last two options as I just would rather not work with mortite for its compound. They do not sell this Armacell product up here. Or at least, I haven't found a store that carries it. But I have found some alternatives such as: Foam Tape. Not sure if this would work equally? Seems so. I'm not even sure if brgman still makes his gaskets so this option is also not out.
3. Sound Absorption - I've read about the various, but common brands such as: Sound Barrier, No-Rez (Due to Trey) and Black Hole. Given that roughly half of the internal cabinet of the TL speakers should be covered with a choice material, I want to poll the pros and ask what you would use:
A. No-Rez only
B. Sonic Barrier only
C. Sonic Barrier for the back/No-Rez for the top and sides
D. No-Rez for the back/Sonic Barrier for the top and sides
Thinking a couple strips along the side of the cabinet about 2/3rd the length and a couple strips along the back with again, the same 2/3rd's length to consider (Top half) as well as the top. There have been some mixed threads about this topic and am unsure which product suits me best given the cost of this mod since one product is substantially cheaper than the other. Discuss?
I should have the new RDO198's in by the end of this week (fingers crossed). I would like to dynamat my baskets, JB weld my magnets and do the driver seals all at the same time as installing the new tweets.
Post edited by Drenis on
Comments
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Do No Rez only. Sonic barrier in comparison to No Rez is no competition.
Alternative to Larrys rings would be something called Hurricane nuts I believe, Parts Express sells them.- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit. -
2. Driver Gaskets - I've read of a couple different methods: Mortite, Armacell, brgman's gaskets. Given that I plan to mod these extensively and keep these, I thought about the last two options as I just would rather not work with mortite for its compound. They do not sell this Armacell product up here. Or at least, I haven't found a store that carries it. But I have found some alternatives such as: Foam Tape. Not sure if this would work equally? Seems so. I'm not even sure if brgman still makes his gaskets so this option is also not out.
Drenis, I have some extra Armacell (not sure if its enough to do the entire set by itself) I could send your way and I could also get you some more here to ship with it if you wanted.
PM me and I am sure we can work something out if you wanted to go with that over the foam tape."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
Threaded inserts will offer the same level of fastening ability as the rings would but would require staying on your toes while drilling each hole unless you made a boring jig to maintain spacing and alignment. You could also glue some blocks of hardwood over each screwhole and use longer screws that will get into the blocks.
The slightly knurled gray one at the 10 o'clock position is the type I use. (with glue also)
I use a clamp to press them into the particle board, a hammer is too much shock and hard to swing inside the cabinet. (for me anyway)
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Hmm... So I guess its either the inserts or these hurricane nuts. Drilling isn't the hard part as it is ensuring all the holes are straight and accurately spaced apart. I'd hate to make a mistake and throw it off. I'm sure a cardboard template would be better then nothing even.
Enders - Thanks for the offer but it would probably not be worth it. I'm sure the product I listed will essentially do the exact same thing. It's just not name brand. :razz: -
I and several others used Black Hole with great success. The key is not to use too much. Do a for my posts - there's a thread in which I described where I put it. Though it's a little pricey, one sheet was enough with a bit left over.
It's very important not to put any damping below the level of the MW's as this will affect the PR, and the bass response. And you use it with the batting put back in its original position.
Re: Hurricane nuts, I bought mine from Parts Express - 8-32 threads. I had to buy the socket head cap screws online as they were w-a-a-a-y to expensive at Lowes, HD, local hardware stores. When drilling you don't need a template as you're only enlarging the existing mounting holes. The important thing is to choose a drill bit that's as wide as the body of the H-nut, but not as wide as the "wings" that bite into the baffle to prevent them from turning.
Good luck!"Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer -
drumminman wrote: »I and several others used Black Hole with great success. The key is not to use too much. Do a for my posts - there's a thread in which I described where I put it. Though it's a little pricey, one sheet was enough with a bit left over.
It's very important not to put any damping below the level of the MW's as this will affect the PR, and the bass response. And you use it with the batting put back in its original position.
Re: Hurricane nuts, I bought mine from Parts Express - 8-32 threads. I had to buy the socket head cap screws online as they were w-a-a-a-y to expensive at Lowes, HD, local hardware stores.
Good luck!
I saw your thread and noted the placement of this product within the speaker. I know too much can be overkill as well as the lower portion of the cabinet with the PR. This is why I stated using stripped portions along the top 2/3rd's of the cabinet. However, research shows the Black Hole product to be more suited for subwoofer enclosures. Given I'll probably need two sheets of either product, I'm willing to try this No-Rez product since it seems to be a better product from the Sound Barrier offering.
I'm not dissing the BH product though. Just don;t feel it's what I need. -
Rivnuts glued into particle board??? I wouldn't expect the lip on the end to secure the rivnut the way the lip of a hurricane nut or T-nut would. The driver will screw securely to the rivnut...but the rivnut won't transfer the clamping force to the "wood". If the glue bond breaks, the driver is just floating on the rivnuts which vibrate in the wood.
The slightly knurled gray one at the 10 o'clock position is the type I use. (with glue also)
The existing holes are your template.Hmm... So I guess its either the inserts or these hurricane nuts. Drilling isn't the hard part as it is ensuring all the holes are straight and accurately spaced apart. I'd hate to make a mistake and throw it off. I'm sure a cardboard template would be better then nothing even. -
Uh....cardboard ain't a good choice for a jig/template, IMO! A Portalign drilling fixture would work if positioned carefully or maybe someone here still has the jig supplied with the rings?For the "ultimate"coupling and seal between the MWs and baffles you could coat the mounting surface of the MWs with a mold release agent and then use a mild polyvinyl (Elmers) glue sparingly to "bed" them in which when dried would provide a airtight seal that won't require a hammer to change them if needed in the future. The cushioning effect of the various foam gaskets is what's undesireable due to it's insulating/separating action between the driver and the baffle. Teflon plumbers tape would be OK too if you had the patience to get a perfect ring laid out, I almost threw a 6511 through a wall while attempting it one evening ! It just doesn't take much to effect a good seal, and remember the drivers "leak" through the fabric center caps anyway. Have fun !!!:biggrin:
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Rivnuts glued into particle board??? I wouldn't expect the lip on the end to secure the rivnut the way the lip of a hurricane nut or T-nut would. The driver will screw securely to the rivnut...but the rivnut won't transfer the clamping force to the "wood". If the glue bond breaks, the driver is just floating on the rivnuts which vibrate in the wood.
The existing holes are your template.
Whatever you say chief. FYI, I do not torque the piss out of them and I also employ a mild thread locking compound. The inserts are a pressed/resistance fit and the glue is just extra insurance. Hurricane nuts in the hands of the inexperienced are a formula for severe particle board destruction in my opinion and experience....YMMV.
(the cadmium colored one close to center is actually closer in config. to the ones I use) -
Keep in mind the TL cabinets are MDF and not particle board.
I'm aware cardboard isn't the right choice but I do not have any other solution. The stock holes are the LAST template I will use as even those can sometimes be out of line with driver holes. -
Armacell can also be purchaced online, and is the only foam tape I would consider using. The compressibility of the material is why it works so well, especially with the rings, as the material will compress to the thickness of the original gaskets that Polk used back in the day. There is no way that Mortite would ever touch my speakers.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
Black Hole 5 and No Rez are both great products. At lower frequencies, I would guess that Sonic Barrier is only half as effective.Do No Rez only. Sonic barrier in comparison to No Rez is no competition.
Alternative to Larrys rings would be something called Hurricane nuts I believe, Parts Express sells them."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
Mortite has worked absolutely great for me. The other choices seem to work well for others too, so it's entirely up to you. I doubt you will hear any difference between any of the suggestions used in place of the original gaskets.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Keep in mind the TL cabinets are MDF and not particle board.
I'm aware cardboard isn't the right choice but I do not have any other solution. The stock holes are the LAST template I will use as even those can sometimes be out of line with driver holes.
Got access to any plexiglass/acrylic material ? That could do it as long as you control sideways "thrust" from the bits desire to "walk". If you go to a stock size, you could use a Forstner bit, or similar, they don't try to walk off center. Wow....I wish my baffles were constructed of MDF !!
(Both MDF & P.Board suck at screw holding abilities !) -
If you clamp this thing in place, your bit WILL go where you want it to. If you wanna fight with your country's customs BS, I'll ship mine to you for a lengthy loan period if you want. But....I think that you might do well with the hardwood block approach, once everything's closed up, only the spiders and dust mites will be able to see em ! Some simple poplar etc.
will provide significant screw holding ability and they can be installed with just a spring clamp or four.
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nooshinjohn wrote: »Armacell can also be purchaced online, and is the only foam tape I would consider using. The compressibility of the material is why it works so well, especially with the rings, as the material will compress to the thickness of the original gaskets that Polk used back in the day. There is no way that Mortite would ever touch my speakers.
Why's that? What's wrong with the product I linked? Difference being its not a big brand such as Armacell but does the same thing just appears to be constructed by a Canadian manufacturer. At least it appears that way based on description.
Yeah I don;t care for the mortite as I read up on it... -
Alright time for a newb question.
What binding posts do most of you upgrade to? I've seen mention of the Cardas CCGG. But they appear to be unable to separate? As in, isolating them from one another on the input terminal cup. Maybe they (and all the binding posts I've seen) can be separated and not be forced to be right next to one another.
I've noticed the stock posts will NOT allow my MIT nanners to be fully inserted (most of the way though). I'm not entirely bothered by this but assume the stock posts are crap as many here change them out. The stock jumpers look horrible... so I'm going to change those out. Not cheap to replace ALL the posts as well as add two more. Speaking of adding two more, I also want to put a post in place of the original pin/blade connection.
Any suggestions folks? I really wish there was a store like Sonicraft up here. They are not cheap to order from unless its a big order... -
Andre:
Given any though to having a US Polkie buy the parts and ship them to you?"....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
Alright time for a newb question.
What binding posts do most of you upgrade to? I've seen mention of the Cardas CCGG. But they appear to be unable to separate? As in, isolating them from one another on the input terminal cup. Maybe they (and all the binding posts I've seen) can be separated and not be forced to be right next to one another.
I've noticed the stock posts will NOT allow my MIT nanners to be fully inserted (most of the way though). I'm not entirely bothered by this but assume the stock posts are crap as many here change them out. The stock jumpers look horrible... so I'm going to change those out. Not cheap to replace ALL the posts as well as add two more. Speaking of adding two more, I also want to put a post in place of the original pin/blade connection.
Any suggestions folks? I really wish there was a store like Sonicraft up here. They are not cheap to order from unless its a big order...
Vampire
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
It has everything to do with compressibility. Armacell will go from about 1/16th inch in thickness all the way down to the thickness of a piece of paper, and does so without offering any resitance of any kind. Other foams start to push back once they are compressed to a certain point.Why's that? What's wrong with the product I linked? Difference being its not a big brand such as Armacell but does the same thing just appears to be constructed by a Canadian manufacturer. At least it appears that way based on description.
Yeah I don;t care for the mortite as I read up on it...The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
I'm excited to see you getting so into modding these Dre. Probably sounds weird, but sometimes I want some SDA 2B's just to have the experience of modding them. Until then, I've got the Usher's to hold me over.
I've never been more determined and anxious about it until now. I honestly don't know what is behind it. I sat on the fence for so long regarding any types of mods to my RTiA9's. I guess it feels different because these are rare, special and have me more excited for the sound as they sit now then my A9's. Given what I've heard and read (not to mention egged on), these are known to be some of the best when done to the top. I have a hunch they will be what I'm looking for.EndersShadow wrote: »Andre:
Given any though to having a US Polkie buy the parts and ship them to you?
Not worth it. If anything, it's probably better to have it shipped to a address in the states where I can cross the border, pick it up, and claim it as I come back home. I'll be in the states for the last week of June so it is a great time to do this. Just not a great time for me to be doing it.Vampire
H9
As far as nanners and spades, no question. But I saw some Vampire posts made out of solid brass with gold plating. Isn't brass what you want to stay away from? I'm open to recommendations. I don't want to spend too much on this mod.nooshinjohn wrote: »It has everything to do with compressibility. Armacell will go from about 1/16th inch in thickness all the way down to the thickness of a piece of paper, and does so without offering any resitance of any kind. Other foams start to push back once they are compressed to a certain point.
Thanks for the explanation on how the product works exactly.
If you could provide a link to a Canadian store that sells this product or something equivalent, I'll go pick it up. But as I haven't, I guess recommendations would be great.
I could pick this stuff up when I'm in the states at the end of the month but I plan to do this much earlier so there must be something else that I can use? -
I'll be in the states for the last week of June so it is a great time to do this. Just not a great time for me to be doing it.
Understand. I doubt your going to be anywhere near the Indianapolis, IN region, but if you are your welcome to stop by."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
If you don't want to spend a lot, then leave the stock binders there. Not being flippant, but nice binding posts aren't cheap and because of the number you need, it's not going to be cheap.
This is the Vampire that are on my SDA's. They will all be brass and copper/gold or silver coated. Solid copper, gold and silver would be extremely expensive.
http://www.vampirewire.com/pc-46-16-bphex.aspx
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
nooshinjohn wrote: »It has everything to do with compressibility. Armacell will go from about 1/16th inch in thickness all the way down to the thickness of a piece of paper, and does so without offering any resitance of any kind. Other foams start to push back once they are compressed to a certain point.
Yes to all above^^^^ And I may add I've used other foam tape from hardware store and parts express stuff the other problem is that it becomes glue like so after 6-8 months you need to slide a sharp object under and pry the driver or tweeter out....Others on this forum warned me in the past but I didn't listen. But I learned from my mistake. -
If you don't want to spend a lot, then leave the stock binders there. Not being flippant, but nice binding posts aren't cheap and because of the number you need, it's not going to be cheap.
This is the Vampire that are on my SDA's. They will all be brass and copper/gold or silver coated. Solid copper, gold and silver would be extremely expensive.
http://www.vampirewire.com/pc-46-16-bphex.aspx
H9
I guess I should have worded my last post better. I meant as in I don't want to spend $100/pair for posts. And while what you suggested is nice, will work and is a bit more than I would want to spend, I could justify the upgrade. I think I will make the posts a upgrade I do around the same time I do the x-overs. So for now, I'll look into getting just one pair so I can fabricate a custom SDA connection.
You still never answered my question though regarding brass. The posts you sent me are native brass. I've been led to believe brass is the anti christ if you know what I mean. Hence all the debates over stock jumpers and swapping them out, etc.Yes to all above^^^^ And I may add I've used other foam tape from hardware store and parts express stuff the other problem is that it becomes glue like so after 6-8 months you need to slide a sharp object under and pry the driver or tweeter out....Others on this forum warned me in the past but I didn't listen. But I learned from my mistake.
Good to know then. I'll pass on the material and see what I can find up here. I'll try some smaller hardware stores to see if anyone has Armacell Tape.
Otherwise, my options are to buy from the states or inquire about pre-fabbed gaskets. -
Otherwise, my options are to buy from the states or inquire about pre-fabbed gaskets.
Stop by a loews or home depot when your in the states later this month and pick some up to take back with you :biggrin:"....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
Copper binding posts that won't break the bank. http://www.soniccraft.com/products/connections/bindingpost/cardas.htm"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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I take that back, these are what are on my SDA's. Very nice, solid and sturdy and won't break the bank.
http://www.soniccraft.com/products/connections/bindingpost/vampire_bphex.htm
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I guess I should have worded my last post better. I meant as in I don't want to spend $100/pair for posts. And while what you suggested is nice, will work and is a bit more than I would want to spend, I could justify the upgrade. I think I will make the posts a upgrade I do around the same time I do the x-overs. So for now, I'll look into getting just one pair so I can fabricate a custom SDA connection.
You still never answered my question though regarding brass. The posts you sent me are native brass. I've been led to believe brass is the anti christ if you know what I mean. Hence all the debates over stock jumpers and swapping them out, etc.
Re-read my post. Binding posts are usually copper and gold coated brass. Solid copper, gold or silver would be extrememly expensive. So to recap, they are brass but in the instance of Vampire are copper, silver and gold coated. You don't want cheap "naked" brass.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
These are solid billit copper, these are on the back of my Aleph 30
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-6796-cardas-ccbp-copper-binding-post-long-ea.aspx
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
