question--Pros n Cons of a turntable

thsmith

transmaster wrote: »

The wood glue method of cleaning a record sure looks interesting. When I get out the turntable and a few of the old discs this is the first thing I am going to do is the wood glue thing. Check it out here: http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=99837

Seen it and would never use it.

I use this method of sorts.

http://www.teresaudio.com/haven/cleaner/cleaner.html

cnh

thsmith wrote: »

90% of my used vinyl purchases do not have snap, crackle or pops.


Those that have that problem have worn out or uncared for albums or dont know how to setup a TT.

BlueFox wrote: »

Does not really matter how well a record is maintained. Playing a record, by definition, requires dragging a stylus through the groove. This creates friction, which creates damage. The hassle, and expense, to minimize that damage is not worth any audio improvement. Better to spend the money on high-end DACs, and the ever increasing supply of high-res downloads. They will never wear out, never need to be cleaned, never need to get up and turn the file over, individual tracks can be easily accessed with no damage, songs can be grouped together in play lists, albums can be grouped together into play lists, and everything can be controlled via an app on a phone, tablet, etc.

That's interesting, because I "remember" some of the "very best" FM classical stations in NYC with TOTL gear playing LPs and hearing the snap, crackle and pop on most of their offerings. One would think that "they" would be taking care of their collections as well as anyone and running some very very good equipment.

Also, I've rarely heard a TT system that did not have some surface noise. Finally, why is it that when you compare the various (noise levels for CDs and vinyl that vinyl is nowhere close to the silent floor that a CD has and is far from the Dynamic levels of CDs?). I asked this somewhere else and the response was that it's OK for a 6000 dollar cartridge to have a stereo separation of only 25 db? Really?)

This is NOT to say that vinyl cannot sound as good as most other formats, it can. But you really have to be a glutton for punishment if even "new" vinyl has to be cleaned. Too much "maintenance"" for me. I'll continue to enjoy the LPs I have on the low end, low cleaning side of the hobby.

But like any hobby, once we start talking about "elite" levels there is a lot of truth and fiction that get intermingled which are very difficult if not impossible to pull apart. And, why should we, since, in the end, sound is in the ear of the beholder! So I leave it at that.

So that I'm not seen as a curmudgeon here, I do believe that everyone should have the "ability" to play almost every format in their system because variety is a "good" thing!

cnh

bmbguy

thsmith wrote: »

Cant disagree, comes down to what you want and willing to invest including $ and time.

I personally find a lot of joy in the search for vinyl and restoring it to great sound if not too worn out and scratched.

And I can't disagree that there are certainly some vinyl treasures out there -- many that will never see a pressing to CD, including many that I own. I've just chosen to take those treasures and digitize them, and 'restore' them by removing the pops with software.

heiney9

I have never heard a completely surface noise free or non pop and click LP. It's part of the media just like road noise is part of tires. Now I have heard extremely low surface noise and very few pops and clicks just like there are low rolling resistance tires. And the louder the passages of music the easier it is to cover up LP surface noise and pops and clicks. Can't say even on friends several thousand $$$ rigs on excellent vinyl, obsessively cleaned that they are dead quiet, it's pretty much impossible. But excellent cond vinyl, well cleaned on a high end TT can minimize the noise and if your source music is loud enough you may never hear it.

H9

heiney9

wingnut4772 wrote: »

I have no doubt that is true. The problem is the learning curve and hassle of it.

Ditto that and the expense for a really nice TT set-up.

Nice to see you around Wingnut.

H9

SCompRacer

If CD's have such a great dynamic range, why aren't the majority of recording engineers using it? Yes, you can get poor recordings with LP's but I have way more loud, compressed, congested and lifeless sounding CD's than LP's, and my LP's outnumber my CD's. Hi-res downloads seem to be more of a gamble than a guarantee of quality. The only place I have gotten 100% satisfaction in quality hi-res downloads is from Cookie Marenco at Blue Coast Records. HDTracks will have to step up before I ever try them again.

You can knock vinyl all you want, but the fact is it can and does sound fabulous. Pops and ticks are either damage or debris in the groove or static buildup. Two of those can be addressed; the one will always let you know at the same exact point in the recording. Surface noise can be from the recording itself, or a poor phono stage, not just the stylus dragging in the groove. I'll keep vinyl regardless of the effort it takes.

thsmith

SCompRacer wrote: »

If CD's have such a great dynamic range, why aren't the majority of recording engineers using it? Yes, you can get poor recordings with LP's but I have way more loud, compressed, congested and lifeless sounding CD's than LP's, and my LP's outnumber my CD's. Hi-res downloads seem to be more of a gamble than a guarantee of quality. The only place I have gotten 100% satisfaction in quality hi-res downloads is from Cookie Marenco at Blue Coast Records. HDTracks will have to step up before I ever try them again.

You can knock vinyl all you want, but the fact is it can and does sound fabulous. Pops and ticks are either damage or debris in the groove or static buildup. Two of those can be addressed; the one will always let you know at the same exact point in the recording. Surface noise can be from the recording itself, or a poor phono stage, not just the stylus dragging in the groove. I'll keep vinyl regardless of the effort it takes.

Agree, sometimes it is not worth the energy to convince people. They need to try it themselves and form their own opinions. The problem is a great number of people sound like they have experience but really dont but like to hear their gums rattle to quote Tony Joe White.

dkg999

The difference between CD's and LP's for me can be summed up as "engagement". I find the sound of LP's to be more engaging and more natural. It's not universal, and I don't disparage CD/digital media, however when I play an LP I find the sound and presentation to more often than not much more engaging and draws me deeper into the music. Pops, snaps, ticks ..... well cleaned LP's minimize that.

You want vinyl surface noise! Come listen to the Green Hornet and Roy Rodgers shows on my restored Airline console and my grandparents albums they used to order with the offers off the back of HoneyComb cereal boxes. The funny thing is that I wouldn't clean up that surface noise even if I could, it's just part of the experience.

bmbguy

dkg999 wrote: »

You want vinyl surface noise! Come listen to the Green Hornet and Roy Rodgers shows on my restored Airline console and my grandparents albums they used to order with the offers off the back of HoneyComb cereal boxes. The funny thing is that I wouldn't clean up that surface noise even if I could, it's just part of the experience.

Heck -- don't I remember them actually putting 'records' right on the cardboard of the cereal boxes? IIRC, some of the "Archies" songs were distributed that way - you had to cut them out of the box. And there were those square plastic 'soundsheets' that would come in magazines -- you had to put them on top of a real vinyl record to play them.

Yeah, ok, I'm older than I look...


Edit: AHA!! Some of my memory still works...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSsZMw_V97o

gdb

I like this tableau !!!

SCompRacer

That looks like my missing remote!:cheesygrin:


Listen for any distracting surface noise above my cheap video cameras noise floor and for pops and ticks. Advance to ~1:28 in the first one to get to the LP. These are old records (1985, 1990). One is pretty warped.

http://youtu.be/BIJX9TmlaSM

http://youtu.be/YYD9CIWJELc

How about that tracking....

george daniel

my .02-- properly done,,vinyl is organic(just natural)

gdb

I agree, can't get more organic than this ......

boston1450

well i have too say something. i enjoy the posts on this thread. great information.....if she comes with that one. ill take it too

SCompRacer

Can't get more analog than the Anna Log,:cheesygrin: by Nottingham.

heiney9

Holy Crap!!! That is one beautiful piece of audio. If it performs as good as it looks, I might dive into vinyl head first! :razz::cheesygrin:

H9

SCompRacer

Oh it do perform, but if you like the way it looks you won't be able to make an unbiased opinion.:cheesygrin:

heiney9

SCompRacer wrote: »

Oh it do perform, but if you like the way it looks you won't be able to make an unbiased opinion.:cheesygrin:

:cheesygrin::cool:


Where do the tubes go? :razz:

H9

dkg999

bmbguy wrote: »

Heck -- don't I remember them actually putting 'records' right on the cardboard of the cereal boxes? IIRC, some of the "Archies" songs were distributed that way - you had to cut them out of the box. And there were those square plastic 'soundsheets' that would come in magazines -- you had to put them on top of a real vinyl record to play them.

Yeah, ok, I'm older than I look...


Edit: AHA!! Some of my memory still works...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSsZMw_V97o

The record wasn't on the cereal box, there was a mail in form to order the record. The one's my grandmother stuffed inside the records showed that the record cost a dollar with 25 cents shipping and handling!

transmaster

thsmith wrote: »

Agree, sometimes it is not worth the energy to convince people. They need to try it themselves and form their own opinions. The problem is a great number of people sound like they have experience but really don't but like to hear their gums rattle to quote Tony Joe White.

Experience? how about 50+ years of listening to records. The problem you have is because you like the sound of a LP, ( as I do if the recording is good) and dislike the sound of a CD that somehow your opinion rules. If a CD sounds bad it is because the source music was recorded badly. In the early days of high fidelity LP recording the quality of the releases was the best it could be. I have the 1954 RCA Victor. 2 volume record set of the OST for the TV documentary Victory at Sea by Richard Rogers, scored by Robert Russell Bennett These recordings are unequaled to this day and made the transfer to CD nicely The first release of Ina-Gadda-Da-Vitta on CD was horrible. There is a Sha-Na-Na disc in my collection that is a waste of the plastic it is made of.

Here is a little secret for you. In the very early days of the CD, before it was marketed in the USA the format was wildly popular in Japan. Sony needed content for this exploding market. What Sony and other Japanese labels did was come to the US labels and started to purchase complete libraries of masters, they purchased only the very best. The US labels where eager to unload these white elephants on these suckers from Japan. Well he who laughs last laughs best. When the CD market exploded in the US guess where all the best original masters where. The US labels where left with inferior source media to press their CD's from. This didn't change until those suckers from Japan started to purchase the very Labels who thought they had put one over on the Japanese. To this day however most of the very best digital recordings in whatever format come out of Japan. If you are into Anime soundtracks make sure you always obtain the Japanese release.

disneyjoe7

transmaster wrote: »

The wood glue method of cleaning a record sure looks interesting. When I get out the turntable and a few of the old discs this is the first thing I am going to do is the wood glue thing. Check it out here: http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=99837

If you could play the glue image of the record.... Would it play backwards?

cristo

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

If you could play the glue image of the record.... Would it play backwards?

You'd need a v-shaped stylus, as the groove would be a ridge on the glue-mold.

disneyjoe7

True.... So you done this?

thsmith

transmaster wrote: »

Experience? how about 50+ years of listening to records. The problem you have is because you like the sound of a LP, ( as I do if the recording is good) and dislike the sound of a CD that somehow your opinion rules. .

You sure read alot into things.

I have over 1000 CDs on my music server and like the the sound quite alot thank you. I never said my opinion rules nor do I care to try and convince you or anyone otherwise.

IMO, YMMV, in my system I like the sound of the vinyl alot with my music server a close second.

Like I said above, my Music Server gets more play time lately because it is convenient not better sounding.

bmbguy

dkg999 wrote: »

The record wasn't on the cereal box, there was a mail in form to order the record. The one's my grandmother stuffed inside the records showed that the record cost a dollar with 25 cents shipping and handling!

Well, apparently the Archies weren't the only 'artists' who had their records right on the box! Funny, it didn't seem so nutso at the time, but looking back...

Bobby Sherman? Yikes, I'd forgotten about him.
http://www.bubblegum-music.com/cerealbox

See, another 'pro' for having a turntable.

George Grand

Lot of new hot air blowing in from the north.

Somebody tell him we are already familiar with this great knowledge being bestowed upon us.

heiney9

transmaster wrote: »

Experience? how about 50+ years of listening to records. The problem you have is because you like the sound of a LP, ( as I do if the recording is good) and dislike the sound of a CD that somehow your opinion rules. If a CD sounds bad it is because the source music was recorded badly. In the early days of high fidelity LP recording the quality of the releases was the best it could be. I have the 1954 RCA Victor. 2 volume record set of the OST for the TV documentary Victory at Sea by Richard Rogers, scored by Robert Russell Bennett These recordings are unequaled to this day and made the transfer to CD nicely The first release of Ina-Gadda-Da-Vitta on CD was horrible. There is a Sha-Na-Na disc in my collection that is a waste of the plastic it is made of.

Here is a little secret for you. In the very early days of the CD, before it was marketed in the USA the format was wildly popular in Japan. Sony needed content for this exploding market. What Sony and other Japanese labels did was come to the US labels and started to purchase complete libraries of masters, they purchased only the very best. The US labels where eager to unload these white elephants on these suckers from Japan. Well he who laughs last laughs best. When the CD market exploded in the US guess where all the best original masters where. The US labels where left with inferior source media to press their CD's from. This didn't change until those suckers from Japan started to purchase the very Labels who thought they had put one over on the Japanese. To this day however most of the very best digital recordings in whatever format come out of Japan. If you are into Anime soundtracks make sure you always obtain the Japanese release.

^^^ You forgot to add "In Your Opinion", now who sounds like their opinion rules?

Digital is an approximation of analog, analog trumphs digital in most cases. I just choose the digital route since it's more convenient and you can get 85-90% there with the right gear. It didn't take me 50+ years to figure that out.

The bolded quote is laughable.

H9

boston1450

there are so many good points here..i am looking at a turntabke tonight....i agree with all these facts. where music means so much to me im thinking this will open the doors to a new chapter in my life. i plan on upgrading my cd system but at this point i think TT will bring the spark back to my ears....i will keep youall updated. i have purchased albums and im egar to place one on the table..its a small investment and it may bring joy to my ears.....i have really enjoyed rereading this thread and processing information that will guide me to help do this without damaging albums not knowing what im doing. thanx for feedback all....randy

drumminman

thsmith wrote: »

90% of my used vinyl purchases do not have snap, crackle or pops.


Those that have that problem have worn out or uncared for albums or dont know how to setup a TT.

Simply not true in my experience. Even with new albums defects were not uncommon. Got to say, though, I haven't bought a new LP since the early 90's.

Has the quality improved?

thsmith

drumminman wrote: »

Simply not true in my experience. Even with new albums defects were not uncommon. Got to say, though, I haven't bought a new LP since the early 90's.

Has the quality improved?

Don't know, I do not buy new very often. Most of my purchases are used and sound fantastic after using my cleaning process. I suppose between tracks there might be some noise but dont notice it and I enjoy listening to the music not the in between tracks.

All of this in MY opinion and YMMV