question--Pros n Cons of a turntable

boston1450

im thinking of purchasing a turntable....i havent owned one in 30+ years. is the music quality better..ive been using cassettes n cd's for years. so im wondering the pro's n con's....cost isnt a real big issue as i can start easy n upgrade later. space isnt a issue..any thoughts are welcome..thanx

schwarcw

The pros: Great sound! Lots of cheap material to be found in garage sales, Goodwill and our own George Grand.

The cons: Vinyl can take you down a long tunnel of obsession to upgrade and purchase audiophile quality vinyl. Watch your wallet.

I enjoy both vinyl and digital media. Both have their pros and cons.

hochpt21

Vinyl takes more time and energy, but nothing sounds sweeter when done right IM0.

drumminman

I started my journey when TT's were one of two serious options for true hi fidelity (the other being Reel to Reel). Cassettes could be good, but nothing beat a really good table-arm-cartridge.

I still have my last TT, a Denon direct drive with an Infiniti Black Widow tone arm and a Shure V15 Type IV cartridge.

The thing that's making me go slow on re-integrating it into my system is the pita factor involved with playing LPs. While they can sound really good, they require much more in the way of physical care: the have to be properly cleaned before each playing, they need to be cleaned (in a different way) if they have been sitting for a long time as mold can grow in the grooves, LP's are more delicate than other mediums and develop ticks and pops even with the best care.

Also, tonearms must be set up properly for them to perform their best. If it's a non-replaceable one that came with the table you're probably limited to anti-skating adjustment and vertical tracking angle. If it's an aftermarket arm you'll need to know how to adjust the overhang.

Not trying to be a buzzkill, but there's more work than when using CD's.

Having said all that I'm still thinking about getting mine going again :cool: I still have around 500 records that haven't been played in 25 years.

hochpt21

Also pretty sweet when you have company over and you casually throw on a record and they're like hey that's cool.

But that's just a bonus.

hochpt21

Not arguing the PITA factor. I use the tt and squeeze about the same.

Polkersince85

Chicks like vinyl guys.

BlueFox

Polkersince85 wrote: »

Chicks like vinyl guys.

Chicks like money, and good vinyl takes money. Lots of money. :cool:

boston1450

now the chick thing has me sold. lol. i look forward in turntables. i will ask the misses to step aside as there may be lines of them. thats way too funny. youall are crazy. i sit here and LMAO with the comments. thank you very much. i will keep you updated on outcome. i see lots of great deals on records also. im looking forward to the quality and the feel of the records once again.....now. the chick thing is a big BONUS......randy

gudnoyez

More pros than cons for me, I love the ritual of cleaning , preping, a few Lp's for the evenings listening. I like going through Mr Grands for sale lists and picking some out, and the local mom and pop shop still has thousands of them to choose from I can easily spend a few hours in there picking stuff out. I guess owning a few turntables is part of this hobby I enjoy the most.

bmbguy

Polkersince85 wrote: »

Chicks like vinyl guys.

That's pretty funny. Shoot, when I was young, the 'chicks' had their own vinyl - because that's all there was!

cnh

The vinyl guys are a very "rarefied" breed because there is SO much TWEAKING involved here. Super high end tables with ridiculously priced cartridges for a dynamic range which is actually very low compared to some other formats.

I run a table myself, but mostly for things I can't find on CDs or old stuff I own. I am, after all, the tail end of the baby-boom? All we had when I was growing up were R-T-R and Vinyl.

My advice, get a decent (older) Technics table, reasonable cartridge. Have someone "adjust" all the nonsense that needs to be adjusted for you! And enjoy! Don't spend TOO MUCH!

Too bad you're not closer to George Grand because he has a truckload of TTs of this kind.

cnh

wingnut4772

More cons than pros. Vinyl CAN sound better and amazing but when you hear that little tiny crackle or pop Arrrgghh! And the cleaning! Too much of a hassle for me.

pearsall001

Pros...zilch, Cons...overrated hysteria. Oh & don't forget that ever pleasing snap, crackle, pop sound. Not worth it in my book.

Erik Tracy

With a clean LP and a decent set up - the sound is oh so joyous it'll make you cry and laugh at the same time at the sonic goodness.

SCompRacer

I agree, vinyl is more work. It can also be very rewarding. Vinyl playback is a package deal. The table, arm, cartridge and phono pre must be of similar quality. You just can?t stick one expensive thing in the system and get the entire bang it is capable of. How it compares to digital depends on the quality of your digital playback gear and what you like better.

Turntables/arm/cartridge combinations have different signature sounds. Some tables sound very smooth, relaxed and warm while others are extremely lively, transparent and accurate.

I clean my LP?s once and handle them carefully. I use a vacuum record cleaning machine. You can also hand wash and dry with micro fiber towels. The cleaner they are the quieter they are. I dry brush my records before and after play and put them in Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab (MFSL) rice paper inner sleeves. Cheap paper sleeves just keep sloughing off debris every time you slip the record in and out.

You need to keep the stylus clean so you can extract the best sound and reduce stylus/record wear. I use an Onzow Zerodust which is a blob you dip the stylus in.

Storage, LP?s takes up much more room than CD?s. You can build your own storage or buy anything from wood to plastic storage bins.

After experimenting with settings, I know where a cartridge/arm combo sounds the best and just play records. I do adjust VTA (vertical tracking angle) for thicker 180-200 gram records. I also check stylus pressure from time to time.

Over the years I have spent thousands on tables, arms and cartridges. You do get into diminishing returns further improving vinyl playback, but it does get better. Main thing is to initially set a budget. If vinyl hooks you, you will increase that budget.

I had many thousands invested in my table/arm, and then I went DIY installing an old Swiss made Lenco idler drive into a custom made heavy plinth. I have less than $2,500 in it including a crudely machined but effective linear tracking air bearing arm. It is as good/better than tables costing many times more.

bmbguy

pearsall001 wrote: »

Pros...zilch, Cons...overrated hysteria. Oh & don't forget that ever pleasing snap, crackle, pop sound. Not worth it in my book.

I'll admit - I don't quite get the 'hysteria' either. Many of those of us who grew up with vinyl were SO glad when CDs came along and that snap, crackle, pop was gone.

Don't get me wrong -- I have plenty of old vinyl, and I still do listen to it. But I won't be buying any new vinyl, and I'm slowly digitizing much of the old. I hate having to get up and flip sides...

But hey, to those who really like it, have at it!

gdb

Close your eyes, carry yourself back 30 years, remember having to overlook the clicks and pops, not being able to stay seated for more than approx 20 minutes! Just kidding around ! I bought a vintage Thorens about a year ago and have had lots of fun since then, and...... without a big cash outlay. Spring for an $80.00 Spin Clean washing system, it's a cheap way to make a huge difference in SQ !!!!

Edit; I didnt notice the above post with identical sentiments within! :redface:

boston1450

that was some great advice from all. i read every one of them twice. i have def decided to go for it. lots of great advice. so i look forward to getting it. i will be purchased a record lot today. ( thank you ken ) im looking forward as i have the time now as the kids are older or moved on...i'll never give up on the cd's or cassettes. there paid for. lol. thanx a bunch everyone. randy

thsmith

90% of my used vinyl purchases do not have snap, crackle or pops.


Those that have that problem have worn out or uncared for albums or dont know how to setup a TT.

bmbguy

thsmith wrote: »

90% of my used vinyl purchases do not have snap, crackle or pops.

You're the lucky one then. Because back in the day, 99% of NEW vinyl had pops.

transmaster

The one reason I have for getting a better turntable then I presently have is Quadraphonic records. This was basically the last gasp of the LP disc before the digital formats all but killed the LP off and was introduced in two formats in 1971. There was a the SQ Quadraphonic format which was adopted by Angel, CTI, and Columbia, and the Europe labels CBS Records, EMI, Epic, Eurodisc, Harvest, HMV, Seraphim, Supraphon and Vanguard. The other system was QS matrix, or just Regular Matrix. For you Sansui fans this quad format was developed by Isao Itoh an engineer with Sansui. and was adopted by the labels ABC, Advent, Bluesway, Candide, Command, Decca, Impulse, Longines, MCA, Pye, Turnabout and Vox. SQ Quad was compatible with regular stereo play back equipment and with the addition of phase decoder, and a pair of speakers was all that was needed to add the two rear channels. The QS Matrix system what not totally compatible with regular play back gear of the time, and took it's own equipment to extract the rear channels The different between the two was the QS Matrix system had much better front to rear channel separation, while the SQ Quad system was better in right-left separation. They way the two systems managed to get four channels out of a analog disc grove was interesting. The SQ Quad system had the usual two sides of the grove for the right and left channels, for the two rear channels it used a spiral movement which a regular phono could pickup, right spiral, right rear, left spiral left rear. The SQ Matrix system on the other hand used the conventional right left movement for the two front channels, for the rear channels it was up and down, I can't remember which direction was right, and left. You have to use a phono cartridge with an extra pair of pickups to read this up and down movement. Both systems by modern 5.1, 7.1, and 9.1 standards are quaint. I went with the SQ Quad system because all I had to add to the system I had at the time was the decoder box and the rear speakers.

The reason for wanting to have the equipment to transcribe these recording is not because of the Quadraphonic sound, which really was a joke, made worse by studio engineers who played the sort of games with the extra channels as was done in the early days of stereo. But because many of these recordings especially of classical music are what I consider to be among the best that where ever put on a vinyl disc. In my small collection of quad discs I have two that stand out. One a Recording of the 1812 Overture, I cannot remember who did this performance this record is sealed away, as are all of the others, in seal-a-meal bags, minus the vacuum. and the other is Carlos Santana's Black Magic Women. This Quad recording of BMW is the sort of vinyl an Audiophile with a beautiful work of art multi-thousand dollar turntable would use to demonstrate his system, it is that good.

thsmith

bmbguy wrote: »

You're the lucky one then. Because back in the day, 99% of NEW vinyl had pops.

Even new vinyl needs to be cleaned before playing.

transmaster

About the records themselves. In your searches of stacks of used records if you run across two labels, Angle, and Seraphim grab them if they look to be in good shape. Angle and it's up scale label Seraphim, ("Angles of a Higher order") Among those of use who were musicians at the time we considered these two labels to be just about the best there was for classical music.

transmaster

thsmith wrote: »

Even new vinyl needs to be cleaned before playing.

The wood glue method of cleaning a record sure looks interesting. When I get out the turntable and a few of the old discs this is the first thing I am going to do is the wood glue thing. Check it out here: http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=99837

wingnut4772

thsmith wrote: »

90% of my used vinyl purchases do not have snap, crackle or pops.


Those that have that problem have worn out or uncared for albums or dont know how to setup a TT.

I have no doubt that is true. The problem is the learning curve and hassle of it.

bmbguy

thsmith wrote: »

Even new vinyl needs to be cleaned before playing.

Gee, we didn't think of that. Back in the heyday of Discwasher and Zerostat. I don't remember anyone I knew trying the vacuum cleaner though.

BlueFox

Does not really matter how well a record is maintained. Playing a record, by definition, requires dragging a stylus through the groove. This creates friction, which creates damage. The hassle, and expense, to minimize that damage is not worth any audio improvement. Better to spend the money on high-end DACs, and the ever increasing supply of high-res downloads. They will never wear out, never need to be cleaned, never need to get up and turn the file over, individual tracks can be easily accessed with no damage, songs can be grouped together in play lists, albums can be grouped together into play lists, and everything can be controlled via an app on a phone, tablet, etc.

thsmith

BlueFox wrote: »

Does not really matter how well a record is maintained. Playing a record, by definition, requires dragging a stylus through the groove. This creates friction, which creates damage. The hassle, and expense, to minimize that damage is not worth any audio improvement. Better to spend the money on high-end DACs, and the ever increasing supply of high-res downloads. They will never wear out, never need to be cleaned, never need to get up and turn the file over, individual tracks can be easily accessed with no damage, songs can be grouped together in play lists, albums can be grouped together into play lists, and everything can be controlled via an app on a phone, tablet, etc.

I do that too, look at my sig, nothing lacking in my digital setup and in alot of cases vinyl still sounds better.

Convience, yes but in alot of straight up comparisions the record just sounds better. I love my music server setup and the sound. I do have to admit that it has been a few weeks since I have spun an album.

Some vinyl never went digital so to listen to that music a TT is a must.

Besides I love when some ask how my music server compares to my TT setup, so I let them decide and in every case they agree vinyl just sounds better.

I have about the same money in both so from a $ standpoint the 2 have about the same coin in them.

thsmith

bmbguy wrote: »

Gee, we didn't think of that. Back in the heyday of Discwasher and Zerostat. I don't remember anyone I knew trying the vacuum cleaner though.

Funny how something old can be new again.

thsmith

wingnut4772 wrote: »

I have no doubt that is true. The problem is the learning curve and hassle of it.

Cant disagree, comes down to what you want and willing to invest including $ and time.

I personally find a lot of joy in the search for vinyl and restoring it to great sound if not too worn out and scratched.