New Tube Integrated - What fits?

heiney9

Recently picked this little gem up for a really good deal. I have had my eye on one for a couple years but for an office/ secondary rig at $859-1100 brand new, it was a bit spendy.



Some pics with the bottom off





I am a little confused on the tube substitues I can safely use. This is an auto-bias amp that can use 6L6G's and EL34's, but it's optimized for 6L6G's. The amp come shipped with Ruby Tubes. They are short almost like a 6V6. There are 3 6L6 type tubes, the 6L6G, 6L6B and 6L6C as well as some military designation tubes. Based on warnings from posts abut guitar amps the 6L6G, A and B can't be substituted for the 6L6C because of much higher plate voltage. All current production tubes are 6L6C's but I want to sub some older 6L6B type variants in this amp, but NOS tubes are very expensive and I need to be 100% sure they won't red plate on me.

Question 1 since the manual clearly states this amp uses 6L6G can I safely assume I don't need to use a 6L6C with it's much higher plate voltage? I want to sub Tung Sol 5881's which have the same rating as 6L6B's. But they are very pricey at about $75/ea for NOS and I don't want to red plate them.

I assume since this can also use EL34's that the plate voltage isn't near as high as would be for a straight 6L6C amp like you would see in a guitar amp. Here are the ratings for each version of the 6L6. I'm not even sure a 6L6C will physically fit in this amp. The Ruby tubes are much smaller than what I see in a typical 6L6C (Sylvania, RCA, GE)

6L6: THE ORIGINAL METAL CASED VERSION. IT HAS THE SAME PLATE/SCREEN RATINGS AS THE 6L6G/GA/GB.

1614, 1622: PREMIUM VERSIONS OF THE 6L6 THAT ARE RATED FOR MAXIMUM OUTPUT AND LONGER LIFE.

6L6G: HAS A LARGE ST (COKE BOTTLE) SHAPED TUBE. IT HAS THE SAME RATING AS THE 6L6GA/GB. (360V/19W PLATE & 270V/2.5W SCREEN)

6L6GA/GB: BOTH THE 6L6GA AND THE 6L6GB HAVE THE SAME RATINGS (360V/19W PLATE & 270V/2.5W SCREEN). THE 6L6GA HAS A SMALL ST (COKE BOTTLE) SHAPED TUBE AND THE 6L6GB HAS A STRAIGHT GLASS SHAPE.

6L6GC: THIS IS THE LATEST VERSION OF THE 6L6 TUBE. IT HAS A 500V/30W PLATE & 450V/5W SCREEN RATING. IF YOUR EQUIPMENT CALLS FOR A 6L6GC THEN YOU SHOULD NOT USE THE OLDER VERSIONS BECAUSE THEY ARE PROBABLY NOT STRONG ENOUGH TO SURVIVE.

EL37: EUROPEAN VERSION OF THE 6L6 WITH A TALL ST (COKE BOTTLE) SHAPED TUBE.

7581(A): PREMIUM INDUSTRIAL VERSION OF THE 6L6GC. THE USA EQUIVALENT TO THE BRITISH KT66

5932/6L6WGA: THESE ARE MECHANICALLY RUGGEDIZED TUBES WITH STRAIGHT SIDED GLASS. THESE WERE MADE ONLY BY SYLVANIA. THEY HAVE THE SAME RATINGS AS THE 6L6GA/GB.

5881/6L6WGB: MILITARY GRADE TUBE WITH THICK STRAIGHT GLASS FIRST DEVELOPED BY TUNG-SOL. THE RATINGS OF THE 5881 ARE 360V/23W PLATE & 270V/3W SCREEN.

The bold one is the ones I'm looking at using

Question 2 is there a way to safely measure the plate voltage?

Any help, discussion would be very welcome.

heiney9

I should note the owners manual and all literature states to use a 6L6G, which is the least robust in the 6L6 line of tubes. If it can use EL34's too would that indicate the amp is on the lower end of the scale of the 6L6 family and I should be able to safely sub a NOS Tung Sol 5881? Or even a 5932? I have a line on NOS for each of these.

H9

heiney9

I will also state that unfortuneatly it's difficult to get a straight answer from Dared, I think it's a bit too technical for the local distributor to understand. Joe Zhou is a great guy but he didn't design these amps he's just a dealer and he doesn't really understand my question or concerns. This is one of the pitfalls in buying Chinese gear, you can't get 100% support. This unit came from an authorized service center for Dared in Naperville, IL. I will try and contact the seller and see if he knows.

H9

heiney9

Calling you Mr. Hardy and other tube guru's that have a better understanding of plate voltage/screen voltage, etc as well as the EL34 and 6L6 tubes and their maximum's, etc. This is a 30wpc push/pull ultralinear circuit, if that helps. I didn't mention it before.

H9

decal

I wouldn't't even think of buying equipment that I couldn't get technical support for. Just my opinion, nothing more.

heiney9

You can get support, just not 100%. For me it's not an issue as I knew it going in. Yes, support for very technical questions is nice to have. But the equivalent amp w/support is in the neighborhood of $2500-4000. No tech support is worth that to me, especially for an infrequently used piece of gear for a secondary system. I have yet to talk to the authorized Dared service center that sold it to me. Perhaps they will know, but in the mean time anyone feel free to spitball. I won't hold you responsible if you are wrong, just trying to get some reassurances before I move forward. Worst that happens is I'm out $300+ bucks after I red plate some very nice NOS tubes.

heiney9

It seems there is support after all. This is the response I received from the authorized service center that sold it to me.

Hi, Glad the amp is working fine for you. This amp is not particular about tubes, since it is running in a low power mode. The unit is cathode biased, meaning that you do not need to adjust anything when changing tubes. The amp is wired in ultra linear mode so, as long as the tubes are matched, you can use any 6L6,5881,or even EL34 tubes. Use what ever your ears like the best.

Cheers, Mike -Deltronics

H9

decal

There ya go, B-I-N-G-O !!!!

schwarcw

Congrats! Very nice looking amp Brock! I hope that it gives you many years of enjoyment!

audiocr381ve

A friend brought over a Dared tube integrated last week. I don't recall the model but that thing was frickin' sweet.

heiney9

Shane, get the model number, I'd be interested to know which one it was. I guess I've become a Dared '****' as this is my 4th Dared piece. I won't lie they are affordable on the used market and in my experience built to a very high standard with quality parts. All but the the pre-amp I use in a secondary system so cost is an issue. I now have (4) tube integrated amps for that rig. I guess one has to go eventually as that's just not sane . They are all different; hybrid, 6V6, EL34 and now 6L6. They all use different driver tubes; ECC85; 6SL7; 12AX7, 12AU7 and one uses a 5AR4 rectifier so they all have their own sound and enjoy swapping them in and out from time to time.

Carl, received the tubes yesterday in excellent condition, thanks again.

Well, being as impatient as I am I pulled the trigger on (2) pairs and a single NOS 1960's Tung Sol 5881 power tubes. I was running the Winged "C" EL34's last night and I can't say I was all that moved. Could be the amp is practically new or EL34's just don't do it for me in an ultralinear circuit. My other EL34 amp is wired in pentode mode and is single ended rather than push/pull so maybe I am just used to the lush sound of that.

Lots of tube rolling and evaluation to see if this is a keeper. I have some of the best sounding/classic old stock tubes around which I'll be using. If it's not for me it might be the unit on the block. However, it's WAY too early to tell. Perhaps in a couple months after I give it a really good listen.

Shane here's a website of Dared products, recognize the unit?

http://www.daredtube.com/products.htm

http://www.daredhifi.com.au/newclassic.html

organ

Wow. How did I miss this thread lol. Saw your other post too in the first ever tube amp thread. Sorry to hear the unit didn't move you. Maybe the caps and other parts need some more break in time?
Of course, there is still the possibility that you don't like (or not yet accustomed) to the Ultralinear sound. But that shouldn't really be a problem imo because you're happy with pentode, and ultralinear should be more linear than pentode.

One possiblility is that your ears are not happy with the x-over distortion of a push/pull amp. You've been listening to single ended all this time. Most people who go from push/pull to single ended usually stay with SE (kinda like the move to triode). But again, I'm just speculating here.

Maybe things will really improve when you install the NOS set you just ordered. Afterall, you did mention that the amp was optimized for the 6L6 family.

You did mention that you were exhausted and couldn't do any critical listening. I hope that's the case.
Let us know how your next session goes.

Man, we are complete opposites not just in tubes but listening habits. My favortie time to listen is when I'm exhausted and in that half asleep, half awake "dream mode" lol.

Keep us posted. Hope things improve on your next session.

heiney9

I have to say of all the amps/tubes I've used amongst these 4 units (still not passing any judgment on the new Dared i-30) my favorite for "to die for" tube soul is the Dared VP-16. Push/pull 6V6 power tubes (1950's RCA black plate, gray glass) 1950's RCA 5691 red base driver tubes or 1954 Brimar CV1985 driver tubes. Absolute butter, 3d, tight bass and tone to die for, vocals are superb. I am hoping adding the original Tung Sol 5881's I just bought today will get me on that track with the new amp, who knows............it's the adventure that's most of the fun.

My exhaustion the other night was caused by a very stressful couple of work days and usually any loud noise, whether it's TV or a favorite song just cuts through me when I am in that state of mind. I know better than to listen when I'm stressed, the music becomes more of an annoyance than a pleasure.

H9

P.s. I really wanted to buy RCA 6L6 blackplates similar time period of the 6V6's I have, but holy crap are those pricey. Some NOS in original box going for $300-400/pr. Used going for $150/pr or more.

Joe08867

I have always preferred 5881's over EL34's. Unless in a guitar amp. They seem to aggressive as far as tubes go to me.

Also, I can't say I am a huge fan of Ultralinear. I prefer Single Ended Triode personally. Although I have heard a couple that were quite warm and smooth. I have to say I would love to hear your Dared VP-16. Those tubes in that piece must sound just awesome.

On a side note: 6V6C's are awesome sounding if they fit which they should. Much more lush than the 6V6G's.

heiney9

It's funny because I ended up paying a lot more for the Dared i-30 than the others, and I love the looks of it, but in the end it just may not quite hit the mark for the sound I'm looking for. I am hoping the 5881's will help.

Again, I probably shouldn't even be commenting because I have had such little time with the amp, it's not fair to start talking about disliking it. I still have several signal tubes in the 12AU and 12AX position to audition as well as the 5881's which should arrive middle of next week.

Another favorite tube in the VP-16 at the driver position is the 1950's Sylvania JAN CHS 6SL7WGT. They have a 3d presentation that is breathtaking as well as being very, very articulate but not at all bright or etched or fatiguing.

I guess if I had to really think about it, I'm looking for the VP-16 type presentation/sound but with a bit more power. Although for my 5B's in the office it's defintely more than adequate at approx 12-16wpc.

H9

heiney9

Just a quick update:

Listened to with the Winged C EL34's in place for about an hour last night (after 30 minute warm up) and they are just too aggressive and thin sounding in this amp. Decided to pull those and put back the Ruby (Chinese) 6L6's that came with it. A fairly cheap tube, but after warming them up for 30 minutes and spending a couple hours listening to the same music it sounded much better, fuller, less aggressive. I guess even though this amp can use EL34's it's not the type of sound I'm looking for. So I will stick with the 6L6 and variants. Can't wait for the Tung Sol 5881's to arrive.

But now this has me torn about selling my EL34 amp. I like the sound of the EL34's in the Norh SE9, but can I justify having (4) tube integrated amps for a single secondary system? My thought was to sell the Norh SE9 to help fund the I-30, but it not being able to give the EL34 sound I am accustomed to is a little disappointing. I guess I'll have to really evaluate how much actual use the EL34 based Norh SE9 will get going forward.

Decisions....decisions...

H9

P.s. Running 1963 Valvo Heerlen 12AX7's and 1969 RCA clear top 12AU7's

Joe08867

You hear what I hear with EL34's and ultralinear in combo. I would like to hear that SE9 and see if it would change my mind about EL34's. I almost doubt it. The EL34 seems stuck in the upper mid range and to aggressive at it.

Seriously, I would look for some nice 6V6C's. It seems the piece was built with 6V6's in mind anyway. And C's are so much smoother than G's.

Not sure if your gonna get much more out of it with 5881's.

heiney9

Joe08867 wrote: »

You hear what I hear with EL34's and ultralinear in combo. I would like to hear that SE9 and see if it would change my mind about EL34's. I almost doubt it. The EL34 seems stuck in the upper mid range and to aggressive at it.

Seriously, I would look for some nice 6V6C's. It seems the piece was built with 6V6's in mind anyway. And C's are so much smoother than G's.

Not sure if your gonna get much more out of it with 5881's.

You mean 6L6? The Dared I-30 uses 6L6 or EL34. The Dared VP-16 I also have uses 6V6's. You think I can use 6V6's in the I-30?

Never heard of a 6V6C. 6V6G and 6V6GT, GTA and GTY, but not "C"

H9

brianle

Joe08867 wrote: »

You hear what I hear with EL34's and ultralinear in combo. I would like to hear that SE9 and see if it would change my mind about EL34's. I almost doubt it. The EL34 seems stuck in the upper mid range and to aggressive at it.

Seriously, I would look for some nice 6V6C's. It seems the piece was built with 6V6's in mind anyway. And C's are so much smoother than G's.

Not sure if your gonna get much more out of it with 5881's.

It's interesting to see our ears are different from person to person. Here is a listener saying that the Unison S6 (which use EL34 in ultralinear) dull and lack of details )
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1219780565&openflup&287&4#287

To my ears, the Unison S6 sounds just right Maybe I'm still new to tubes

organ

Thanks for the update, H9. The Chinese Rubys you tried are actually pretty good tubes. It's an EL34B by Shuguang.
Let us know how it works out with the 6L6. I'm sure you'll get much better performance from the tubes the amp was optimized for.

I don't have any tube charts with me at the moment, but I doubt you can sub a 6V6 for EL34. I think their electrical characteristics are a lot different.

Do you have a local tube technician that you trust? If you decide to get rid of the Norh, you should at least try it out in triode mode. It's a 5 minute job if you know how to do it. A decent tech would probably charge about $50 for a conversion. You can also install a switch so you can go back and forth between pentode and triode.
The EL34 sound is that much better in triode, and on a great amp, it can approach the sound of directly heated triodes like 300B and 2A3. You will cut output power by half if you decide to do this.
Just a heads up incase you want to try the triode sound.

Keep us posted.

heiney9

organ wrote: »

I don't have any tube charts with me at the moment, but I doubt you can sub a 6V6 for EL34. I think their electrical characteristics are a lot different.

I was speaking of the 6V6 and 6L6 since they are in the same family. I don't think they are compatible as the 6V6 operates at much less voltage. I was just trying to decipher Joe08867 post as I am not aware of a 6V6C, unless it's a Russian or Chinese tube translation of something.

H9

heiney9

brianle wrote: »

It's interesting to see our ears are different from person to person. Here is a listener saying that the Unison S6 (which use EL34 in ultralinear) dull and lack of details )
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1219780565&openflup&287&4#287

To my ears, the Unison S6 sounds just right Maybe I'm still new to tubes

There is really no wrong or right, just good, better, best. There are some general things you can conclude, but really, amp topology, speaker load and tubes used have great influence on the final sound. I don't care for the EL34's in my ultralinear amp, but that's my amp and it's optimized for 6L6's so who knows how much musical quality is compromised using EL34's if it's not optimized for them. Perhaps the bias current is on the low end and EL34's just don't sound as magical on my I-30 compared to the Norh SE9.

H9

organ

heiney9 wrote: »

I was speaking of the 6V6 and 6L6 since they are in the same family. I don't think they are compatible as the 6V6 operates at much less voltage. I was just trying to decipher Joe08867 post as I am not aware of a 6V6C, unless it's a Russian or Chinese tube translation of something.

H9

Aaah, my bad. Didn't read the post correctly.

Brian,
Don't worry about those reviews. Like H9 said, there are many things in the audio chain that will determince your final sound. For example, using low sensitivity speakers designed for solid state will make tube amps struggle and you won't get good sound.

Joe08867

I swear sometimes my head is up my arse.

They aren't 6V6C. That's a groove tube number. They are 6V6's but they are coke bottle shaped. Marconi made them and someone else in Europe. They had a much smoother sound than the regular style like your Ruby's.

Also, I missed the whole part of your post about 6L6's. I was stuck on 6V6's.

If you can find Winged 6L6's you will be very happy. Tung Sol Or SED.

heiney9

Ah, you mean 6V6G's. I've looked at several quads over the years and they do tend to get pricey, plus they are too tall to fit in the amp with the cover on. The "bars" are easily removed however.



A little more reading for those interested.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/dared2/vp16.html

brianle

I like the look of the I30 a lot more than the above :cheesygrin:

heiney9

brianle wrote: »

I like the look of the I30 a lot more than the above :cheesygrin:

It shows better in person. I wasn't thrilled about the neon lighting up the plexi-glass but it grew on me. The LED's are very hard to get to, so I left it. Again, in person it's not so bad. But I agree the I-30 is sort of retro in an Art Deco kind of way. Much better to look at.

H9

heiney9

Update:

Still waiting on a pair of Tung Sol 5881's to arrive so I have a quad. The seller is a slow shipper and I can sympathize because I am not lightening fast like some. I also bought a quad of very slightly used SED Winged C 6L6GC's which might even arrive before the pair of Tung Sols

The RCA 6350's that are supposed to be a ruggidized computer tube that is equivalent to the 12AU7's came and I put them in only to have the grid posts glow bright orange and put out a lot of heat and no sound.........so I guess those won't work in place of a 12AU7. There's $30 down the drain

Rolled in the Tung Sol 12AU7's in place of the RCA clear tops, not thrilled with the presentation of either. The RCA's seem to be too bright and Tung Sols lack definition and seem to have a lot less clarity in the midrange.

So far this amp isn't giving me that "wow" factor, but I expect the Tung Sol 5881's and the WInged C 6L6's to wake it up and produce some magic. Still searching for that combination that will knock my socks off! Could take some time, like it did the 6V6 based amp.

Just some off the cuff notes and I'm sure my opinions/impressions will change as I have only had a total of about 8 hours listening. I doubt the stock power tubes are even broken in yet.

heiney9

Pulled the Dared I-30 out of the mix tonight. Just doesn't sound all that great. Put the Dared Vp-16 in the mix. HOLY CRAP does it sound good. The difference is night and day and I attribute 100% to NOS tubes. I wish the last pair of Tung Sol 5881's would get here for the I-30.

Before it sort of disliked current production tubes, now I really hate anything from China, there stock Ruby tubes in the Dared are horrible sounding.

H9

audiocr381ve

In your experience what is the difference between running the Dared SL2000a to your Pass amp and these tube integrateds? Which do you prefer? I'm seriously thinking about a Rogue tube integrated I heard a few months ago. It was awesome.

heiney9

The Sl2000A with proper tubes and the Pass amp, by a margin as wide as the Grand Canyon. My comments about the integrated amps are strictly within the context of my office rig. Which consists of either the Keces or Audio GD dac, MIT I/C's, Canare 4S11 speaker cables, Monitor 5B's (with Clarity caps and RD0's)

The difference is slam, micro dynamics, power, soundstage, realism, articulation, pace, prat, timbre.

H9