Stupid things you hear from the DBT/Null test crowd....

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  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,431
    edited May 2012
    lightman1 wrote: »
    I like hot dogs. Sometimes with mustard, sometimes not. It's a matter of my personal tastes at the time.
    Get it?

    The relevant thing is:

    Can you tell the difference between Ball Park, Oscar Mayer and store brand franks in a blind taste test? I don't think you can.:loneranger:
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • lightman1lightman1 Posts: 10,193
    edited May 2012
    The relevant thing is:

    Can you tell the difference between Ball Park, Oscar Mayer and store brand franks in a blind taste test? I don't think you can.:loneranger:

    Touche! Big R! Touche!:wink:
  • gdbgdb Posts: 6,125
    edited May 2012
    tonyb wrote: »
    Just as long as you don't put ketchup on your dog, it's cool. Nobody puts ketchup on a hotdog.:cheesygrin:

    I sure as hell do.....when it's a chili cheese dog with relish, mustard & onions on it already ! I don't try to adjust the tone of my rig with cable changes, I use the tone controls (rarely) that the e. engineers created for just that purpose. Impacted, anal purists sure do miss out on a lot of fun stuff !:lol:
  • newrivalnewrival Posts: 2,020
    edited May 2012
    The relevant thing is:

    Can you tell the difference between Ball Park, Oscar Mayer and store brand franks in a blind taste test? I don't think you can.:loneranger:

    This may be true where you're from, but in a city where we take our dogs seriously, we can :wink:
    design is where science and art break even.
  • nooshinjohnnooshinjohn Posts: 19,600
    edited May 2012
    gdb wrote: »
    I sure as hell do.....when it's a chili cheese dog with relish, mustard & onions on it already ! I don't try to adjust the tone of my rig with cable changes, I use the tone controls (rarely) that the e. engineers created for just that purpose. Impacted, anal purists sure do miss out on a lot of fun stuff !:lol:

    All those toppings are a placebo for a crappy hot dog to begin with.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, TriangleArt Reference SE with Pass Labs Xono Phono Preamp, Walker Precision Motor Drive, ClearAudio Goldfinger Diamond v2 cartridge and Origin Conquerer Mk3c tonearm, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Pass Labs X0.2 three chassis preamp, PS Audio PerfectWave DAC MkII, Pioneer Elite SC-65, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk audio AB700/800 "in-wall" surrounds.

    Saying that it's "too hard" to pursue your dreams is no different than admitting to yourself that you are too lazy to achieve them.

  • tonybtonyb Posts: 30,780
    edited May 2012
    gdb wrote: »
    Impacted, anal purists sure do miss out on a lot of fun stuff !:lol:

    Nah...we blew our wad on tone controls along time ago, your just slower at it. :cheesygrin:
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  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,431
    edited May 2012
    gdb wrote: »
    I don't try to adjust the tone of my rig with cable changes, I use the tone controls (rarely) that the e. engineers created for just that purpose. Impacted, anal purists sure do miss out on a lot of fun stuff !:lol:

    The "fun stuff" being missed out on are phase errors and noise introduced by tone control circuits.
    tonyb wrote: »
    Nah...we blew our wad on tone controls along time ago, your just slower at it. :cheesygrin:

    Tony is correct about audiophiles eventually abandoning equipment with tone controls. Eventually, a serious listener's ears will evolve to the point where the imaging aberrations, loss of detail and other detrimental artifacts caused by tone controls become intolerable.

    For stereophonic reproduction, phase information provides a sense of the relative position of a sound image. The filters used in the tone controls of low-fi and mid-fi audio equipment introduce phase errors and noise. Phase errors due to equalizing filters can be overcome with high order filter stages using high quality components, but the added high expense of such filters is not practical for low-fi and mid-fi equipment. Another concern is the increase in noise due to the increased complexity of the filter.

    For hi-fi equipment, it does not make sense to design a low noise, linear phase preamplifier or integrated amplifier and then run the signal through noisy, phase distorting tone controls. This is why most high quality, high resolution stereo equipment either does not offer tone controls or offers a "bypass" switch to electrically take them out of the circuit.

    If a serious listener desires some minor tonal change and such change can be achieved with a low-noise cable, that is preferable and will do far less damage to signal integrity, and the stereophonic presentation, than the phase errors and added noise of a tone control circuit.

    Well, what about the tone controls (equalizers) used in recording studios? The simple wideband bass and treble boost/cut filters in consumer audio equipment are in no way comparable to professional recording studio equalizers. The equalizers used in recording studios offer the recording engineer pin-point adjustment accuracy for specific frequencies, preservation of phase information and very low noise. A consumer can have the same "tone controls" in their home, if they want to pay the tens of thousands of dollars for it. However, it should be understood that the corrections addressed by tone controls would often more appropriately be addressed by more synergistic audio system components and/or room acoustic treatments. System synergy and room treatment plans are things well understood by "serious listeners". It is for this class of listeners (purists) that stereophonic audio systems were developed.

    Hope this helps.
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 30,780
    edited May 2012
    Yep, as your gear and your trained ears become better, those small noises in the signal become more apparent. Funny, in my case anyway, I can tell the difference in noise between bad and good volume pots, but someone can be talking to me 2 feet away and I'm oblivious to what they just said. Tone controls imho would be ok for casual listening as your not really paying attention to the smaller differences in signal noise, but not for that main listening session with a glass of scotch in hand. Then it just pisses me off to hear it.
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  • newrivalnewrival Posts: 2,020
    edited May 2012
    Synergy. I've used the phrase myself, in the past, but no longer do so. I'm not so sure I believe in it in the esoteric sense anymore, mainly because when I hear it thrown around, it is in a manner that connotes some sense of mystical, divine connection. I guess I'm bringing this up because I would like to hear what it means to you all out there. The phrase gets dropped frequently in the forum, and I always wonder what they feel it means. Additionally, do you think synergy is a real thing? an aberration? a generic simplistic term glossing over a complex electric amalgam? What you say when two things are complimentary? Either way I'm interested.
    design is where science and art break even.
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 30,780
    edited May 2012
    There is no mystical or devine sense in it at all. Just pieces of gear that work well together. Like LSI's and Nad gear seem to gel together pretty good. While RTI's and Emotiva don't seem to. Of coarse, again, all subjective. You here us talk about synergy, but that means different things to different people. Some can't tell what it is, while some can point out the small differences in sound that they think gells better than another piece of gear. There is no in depth reasoning behind it. The same way a steel belted radial tire synergizes with your car better than a 30 buck fiberglass one would. I guess synergy in a sense means when more than one piece of gear or all pieces compliment each other, rather than bring out the worst in each other. Kinda like women. :cheesygrin:
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  • BlueFoxBlueFox Posts: 10,566
    edited May 2012
    I personally hate the words synergy and paradigm. Not from a stereo perspective, but from the work world. Invariably, those two words are thrown around by idiots with an MBA, who do nothing but create problems. But they know big words. "We are going to reorganize to achieve synergy with our new paradigm." Great. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
    Bud - Silicon Valley

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  • tonybtonyb Posts: 30,780
    edited May 2012
    I hear ya man, but synergy in the work place means pretty much the same thing. People that work well together, computer programs that work well together, policy that works for employees as well as employers, all means the same. I can see tossing some hate at the word though, in corporate america, they love to use words to hide their errors.
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  • gdbgdb Posts: 6,125
    edited May 2012
    newrival wrote: »
    Synergy. I've used the phrase myself, in the past, but no longer do so. I'm not so sure I believe in it in the esoteric sense anymore, mainly because when I hear it thrown around, it is in a manner that connotes some sense of mystical, divine connection. I guess I'm bringing this up because I would like to hear what it means to you all out there. The phrase gets dropped frequently in the forum, and I always wonder what they feel it means. Additionally, do you think synergy is a real thing? an aberration? a generic simplistic term glossing over a complex electric amalgam? What you say when two things are complimentary? Either way I'm interested.


    Beer & Pizza ! :wink:
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 30,780
    edited May 2012
    gdb wrote: »
    Beer & Pizza ! :wink:

    There ya go.....PB&J....Donnie and Marie, Burns and Allen, Chocolate and banana's, Hot dogs and mustard, pasta and meatballs, farts and a match.....ok, maybe not that last one.:wink:
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    Cullen modded Sonos
    Joule la-100 pre
    B&k Ref 4420 amp

    Cables-
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    Analysis plus crystal oval ic's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
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  • nooshinjohnnooshinjohn Posts: 19,600
    edited May 2012
    tonyb wrote: »
    There ya go.....PB&J....Donnie and Marie, Burns and Allen, Chocolate and banana's, Hot dogs and mustard, pasta and meatballs, farts and a match.....ok, maybe not that last one.:wink:

    How about those "innies and Outies":razz:

    Donnie and Marie went together:eek::question::eek: Some things were better left a secret.
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    Saying that it's "too hard" to pursue your dreams is no different than admitting to yourself that you are too lazy to achieve them.

  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,431
    edited May 2012
    newrival wrote: »
    Synergy. I've used the phrase myself, in the past, but no longer do so. I'm not so sure I believe in it in the esoteric sense anymore, mainly because when I hear it thrown around, it is in a manner that connotes some sense of mystical, divine connection.

    There's nothing mystical or esoteric about the meaning of synergy. Synergy expresses how well the parts of an audio system work together to achieve the listener's goals. Learning how to achieve synergy requires some thought, study and practice. Just homes should be chosen with regard to lifestyle requirements, audio gear should be chosen with regard to the listener's stereophonic performance goals. In this regard the achievement of system synergy can be elusive because some people don't want to do the research required to realize what their audio preferences and requirements are and what equipment in their budget will best meet those preferences and requirements.
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,015
    edited May 2012
    The achievement of system synergy can be elusive because some people don't want to do the research required to realize what their audio preferences and requirements are and what equipment in their budget will best meet those preferences and requirements.

    That pretty much says it all right there. We are all "invested" at different levels in this hobby. Both monetarily as well as time/effort and analysis. Some know what's possible in this hobby as far as performance because they care about it and know what they like and don't like. Some only care up to a point and then they are satisfied and yet others don't care, either because they don't know what's possible because they won't try anything. Or, they simply aren't as invested in the overall goal of achieving the best possible performance and aural satisfaction.

    There is room for everyone, but I personally get tired of the latter telling me I'm wasting my money, my ears are deceiving me, I'm doing the comparisons incorrectly, there is no way that's possible, specs don't lie, etc, etc, etc. I know differently because I have spent a good part of the past 30 years (I'm 45) in this hobby enjoying the music and journey and realizing there is a lot of satisfaction out there if you are willing to put in the time, effort and $$$ and most of all have an open mind.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,431
    edited May 2012
    heiney9 wrote: »
    I personally get tired of the latter telling me I'm wasting my money, my ears are deceiving me, I'm doing the comparisons incorrectly, there is no way that's possible, specs don't lie, etc, etc, etc.

    Yet, when you ask naysayers to quantitatively or scientifically justify their position(s)...
    einsteinpipe2.jpg
    ...they resort to insults, they run off, or they desperately and/or ignorantly grab some
    pseudo-scientific nonsense that has no rational relevance to stereophonic audio.

    mad.gifInsults are the last refuge of the outwitted, DK.
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • newrivalnewrival Posts: 2,020
    edited May 2012
    There's nothing mystical or esoteric about the meaning of synergy. Synergy expresses how well the parts of an audio system work together to achieve the listener's goals. Learning how to achieve synergy requires some thought, study and practice. Just homes should be chosen with regard to lifestyle requirements, audio gear should be chosen with regard to the listener's stereophonic performance goals. In this regard the achievement of system synergy can be elusive because some people don't want to do the research required to realize what their audio preferences and requirements are and what equipment in their budget will best meet those preferences and requirements.

    And call me crazy, but I feel a lot of the idea of synergy is where science and measurements come in. Calculating system gain, component impedance, etc. Statements lik " Like LSI's and Nad gear seem to gel together pretty good" (sorry tony, just the most expedient example) gloss over what is actually happening, much like saying "you need 200W for those spakers." In my perception of those comments, it is akin to saying Scorpios and I get along great. While it may be true from a perspective of Scorpios that I have met and identified as Scorpios, but it does not make the statement a fact.
    design is where science and art break even.
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,015
    edited May 2012
    Perhaps you should start wearing looser fitting jeans. You are now associating Astrology with audio synergy, talk about apples and oranges. Seriously, looser jeans.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 30,780
    edited May 2012
    It's all good NR, the difference I guess when I say Lsi's and Nad gear gel pretty good, is that statement comes from users with experience with that combination, no guessing, no astrology, simple fact of the matter. Now, that particular combination may not be for everyones ears, but it's a good likelyhood that most would be pleased.

    User experiences, is there something better to go on ? Think about everything else you buy, you look at user references to guide you. Cars, Boats, lawn mowers, appliances, vacation spots, shoes, phones, the list is endless. No need in making synergy more complicated than it needs to be.
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    SVS SB-2000
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    Cullen modded Sonos
    Joule la-100 pre
    B&k Ref 4420 amp

    Cables-
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    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Analysis plus crystal oval ic's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
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    Tad 803 speakers
  • newrivalnewrival Posts: 2,020
    edited May 2012
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Perhaps you should start wearing looser fitting jeans. You are now associating Astrology with audio synergy, talk about apples and oranges. Seriously, looser jeans.

    H9

    Why do you seem to always misunderstand the concept of analogies or simile? I'm not associating astrology with audio gear. in any way. at all. im using the idea of astrology to illustrate a paralleling concept of audio gear within the context of the discussion. Does this illustrative device seriously escape your grasp fo comprehension that completely?

    And when I stop caring about about what I look like, I'll come to you for recommendations on sweat pants.
    design is where science and art break even.
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,015
    edited May 2012
    I completely understand and just because it's an analogy doesn't mean it automatically fits or makes sense. In this case it doesn't fit or make sense to me.

    Just a little humor about the jeans, nothing personal as I found that particular thread very entertaining.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 30,780
    edited May 2012
    Hey man, don't be knockin' sweat pants. The boys can hang loose and they come off in a hurry.:cheesygrin:
    HT SYSTEM-2 channel
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Dynaudio Audience 72
    Polk FX500 surrounds
    Cary xciter dac
    Cullen modded Sonos
    Joule la-100 pre
    B&k Ref 4420 amp

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Analysis plus crystal oval ic's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    B&k 1430
    Tad 803 speakers
  • newrivalnewrival Posts: 2,020
    edited May 2012
    heiney9 wrote: »
    I completely understand and just because it's an analogy doesn't mean it automatically fits or makes sense. In this case it doesn't fit or make sense to me.

    Just a little humor about the jeans, nothing personal as I found that particular thread very entertaining.

    H9

    Likewise on the humor :wink: I'm sure you are a very well appointed gentleman.

    And as far as my simile goes, if you don't feel it fits, then tell me so, rather than say I'm associating the two. It misrepresents your argument, and I know you are a sharp guy, which is why it throws me off so much when that is your response. My point is not apples to oranges, it is apples to apples to make a point about oranges to oranges.
    design is where science and art break even.
  • newrivalnewrival Posts: 2,020
    edited May 2012
    tonyb wrote: »
    Hey man, don't be knockin' sweat pants. The boys can hang loose and they come off in a hurry.:cheesygrin:
    best argument I've heard for any pant of any type. duly noted
    design is where science and art break even.
  • gdbgdb Posts: 6,125
    edited May 2012
    newrival wrote: »
    Why do you seem to always misunderstand the concept of analogies or simile? I'm not associating astrology with audio gear. in any way. at all. im using the idea of astrology to illustrate a paralleling concept of audio gear within the context of the discussion. Does this illustrative device seriously escape your grasp fo comprehension that completely?

    And when I stop caring about about what I look like, I'll come to you for recommendations on sweat pants.

    Oh Snap !!! You've seen his pics, I presume ?!?! :lol:
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