Stupid things you hear from the DBT/Null test crowd....
nooshinjohn
Posts: 21,609
I will get the ball rolling with this classic!
Wow...
There is no audible difference between a pro audio Crown amp and a top of the line Pass Labs!
Wow...
The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, TriangleArt Reference SE with Pass Labs Xono Phono Preamp, Walker Precision Motor Drive, ClearAudio Goldfinger Diamond v2 cartridge and Origin Conquerer Mk3c tonearm, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Pass Labs X0.2 three chassis preamp, PS Audio PerfectWave DAC MkII, Pioneer Elite SC-LX701, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk audio AB700/800 "in-wall" surrounds.
Saying that it's "too hard" to pursue your dreams is no different than admitting to yourself that you are too lazy to achieve them.
“If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
Saying that it's "too hard" to pursue your dreams is no different than admitting to yourself that you are too lazy to achieve them.
“If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
Post edited by nooshinjohn on
Comments
Is the guy making the changes flashing hand signs to the
guy listening? Please. How's the guy making the changes
going to NOT know what he's connecting? This is the part
that drives me nuts. There's a bunch of guys over at head-fi
that beat DBT to death. Yet none of them have performed this
magic. They just dangle it out there as "if you didn't do this,
it doesn't count". I understand that your head can play tricks,
but I know that I've had amps that stand out like a sore thumb.
The answer I get- all properly designed amps should sound the same.
Anything else isn't properly designed. Nice catch 22.
Double-Blind Procedure: This is one type of experimental procedure in which both the patient and the staff are ignorant (blind) as to the condition (or group) that the participant is in. This would make it impossible for the participant or researcher to know if the participant is receiving the treatment (for example a drug) or a placebo. This type of design is commonly used in drug evaluation studies, and is used to prevent the researchers from acting differently to people in one group, or from giving the participant any information that could make them act and/or behave unnaturally.
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
I find it better to just get really drunk while testing that's like triple blind testing lol.
2 Channel-SDA 2.3TL's
5.1-RT3000P's/CS1000P/RT2000P's/Denon AVR-4520
It does not matter if the person changing the equipment knows which is which, and making that person blind does not make it a double-blind test, since he is neither the patient nor observer. He is simply functioning as an aide to the experiment--a tool, if you will. However, if that person is indeed cheating and sending indications to the listener regarding which equipment is being tested, then it is simply no longer a blind test.
RT-12, CS350-LS, PSW-300, Infinity Overture 1, Monoprice RC-65i
Adcom GFA-545II, GFA-6000, Outlaw Audio 990, Netgear NeoTV
Denon DCM-460, DMD-1000, Sony BDP-360, Bravia KDL-40Z4100/S
Monster AVL-300, HTS-2500 MKII
corret, which is why the ABX method is performed. There is also a very vocal opponent of this method that frequents this forum. I don't exactly share all of his views, but he has a solid arguent against it.
At any rate, as far as Comparison testing goes, ABX is about as good as it gets for audio components, IMO.
I prefer to do a blind AB comparison (XY comparison) instead. Do it five times, for a total of 10 listening sessions. If one is better than the other, it will score as such at least 4/5 times. Otherwise there is no discernible difference. May not be good enough for a laboratory, but it's good enough for me.
RT-12, CS350-LS, PSW-300, Infinity Overture 1, Monoprice RC-65i
Adcom GFA-545II, GFA-6000, Outlaw Audio 990, Netgear NeoTV
Denon DCM-460, DMD-1000, Sony BDP-360, Bravia KDL-40Z4100/S
Monster AVL-300, HTS-2500 MKII
I did that same test in High School, hope those girls parents aren't reading this.
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1430
Tad 803 speakers
RT-12, CS350-LS, PSW-300, Infinity Overture 1, Monoprice RC-65i
Adcom GFA-545II, GFA-6000, Outlaw Audio 990, Netgear NeoTV
Denon DCM-460, DMD-1000, Sony BDP-360, Bravia KDL-40Z4100/S
Monster AVL-300, HTS-2500 MKII
If the desire to eliminate placebo from my selection makes me a lab coat, so be it. However, it has been proven time and again that the mind is utterly unreliable at making distinctions from memory--hence the terrible unreliability of eyewitness testimony and the mind's ridiculous susceptibility to suggestion. If you were to put one system behind a curtain, play it twice to a listener, lie to them and say that the second time you played it that it was a much more expensive system, the majority of listeners will describe in detail specific differences they heard in the second system that made it better--even though it was the exact same system.
This is a fact that is well-known by marketers of "high-end" audio gear, one which they bank heavily upon. From the downright absurd (i.e. anything from Coconut Audio) to the almost plausible (i.e. cables), I do not believe anyone can seriously claim that absolutely no such shenanigans take place--the disagreement is simply to what degree.
RT-12, CS350-LS, PSW-300, Infinity Overture 1, Monoprice RC-65i
Adcom GFA-545II, GFA-6000, Outlaw Audio 990, Netgear NeoTV
Denon DCM-460, DMD-1000, Sony BDP-360, Bravia KDL-40Z4100/S
Monster AVL-300, HTS-2500 MKII
Sometimes in this hobby, we don't see the trees for the forest. If you're trying to "fix" tonality problems with cables (note I said FIX), you are on a fools path of wasting alot of money--and suffering lots of frustration. Cables are for very, very fine tuning, again--IMO.
Here's an interesting poll, how much have you paid for cables (just one source to speaker) vs what are your speakers valued at?
My system:
Cables: (Kimber Hero/8TC/Belden dig coax) $742.00
Speakers: $3650.00/pr
My cables represent 20% of the value of my speakers.
**Now, if you adore your speakers, then hey--none of this applies. You've found your bliss, cable it up! But if you're struggling to get the right sound, it might be worth taking a look at your expense priorities.
I do find it odd when people have cheap speakers (not by cost but by quality) but feel the need to get better than basic cables. The only time I feel the urge to get involved in the cable debates is when it appears that somebody with a pretty basic system is being encouraged to spend money on expensive cables when it would be much wiser to look at replacing other components in their system (particularly speakers).
I am also assuming in YOUR experience the $1500 speaker sounded better than the $800 speaker or you wouldn't be making such a claim. Not every $1500 speaker will sound better than an $800 speaker. But then I will admit not every higher priced cable will sound better than a lower priced cable.
I prefer to work on synergy within my budget and not assign hard numbers to each piece.
H9
Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
Just my opinion, take it for what it's worth.
Sorry I couldn't help.
That is just because you have never heard the sound of how awesome I am. Then you would be blown away and never be able to be satisfied with the sound of how awesome you are.
What's that?
I...I'm sorry, could you speak up?
Yeah, I have a hard time hearing over the sound of how awesome I am.
Are you sure that is not the sound of my awesomeness, since that is the only thing I can hear? My awesomeness is like the sound of a pair of Cerwin-Vega Xls-215 hooked up to a Crown XTi4002 which in ABX testing is identical to a pair Focal-JMlab Grand Utopia driven by a pair of Pass Labs X1000.5s.
What?
Shane Carwin? Where?
Pass? What? You made a pass at Shane Carwin?
Ah, forget it, I can't hear you. All I can hear is my awesome. It's lovely actually. Sounds like a hundred virgins singing songs about how awesome I am while naked and riding unicorns with solid gold saddles and playing harps made of solid gold. Oh and the unicorns are apparently farting rainbows. There are leprechauns danging jigs too while playing Sousa Marches with **** trumpets and using their hairy, naked behinds as bongos.
Oh, hey! Gotta go! The fanfare and lunch finally are coming up! This is gonna be grand!
Wait. Yours is more than just farting. I thought that is what you meant by awesomeness. I had Mexican food for lunch just to increase my awesomeness.
+1.......GAME.......SET.......MATCH......This post says it all
My experience: I agree to what Steve said.
Here are the cables I own so far:
Power cords:
* Kimber Kable PK10 bought from mantis
* multiple Pangea AC-9 bought from Audio Advisor
* multiple Signal MagicPower & MagicPower Digital Reference & Silver Resolution from Audiogon
* PS Audio xStream Plus & PS Audio xStream Prelude bought from Conradicles
Speaker cables:
* Kimber Kable 4tc bought from mantis
* Kimber Kable 8TC bought from PrazVT
* MIT Terminator2 bought from heiney9
* PS Audio xStream Prelude Speaker Cables bought from zingo
* Clear Day silver bought from doctorcilantro
IC's:
* Signal Cable Silver Resolution Reference Analog bought from Conradicles
* Zu Wylde bought from starkiller
* MIT Terminator2 bought from daboyz
* Audioquest Columbias & Audioquest Cinemaquest & Signal Analog Two XLR's bought from blueboxer
* Kimber Hero XLR's bought from 98Badger
Others:
* Auricle digital cable from pepster
* MAC digital cable from marvda1
* Signal Jumpers from DForman
* multiple Virtue Audio Nirvana USB cables bought from doctorcilantro and virtualaudio.com
Tried all kinds of combination of those cables, and the result? No great improvement at all.
The additions/upgrades that were really worth it, to me, were when I:
* upgraded from the Bose speakers to the Polk LSi set
* upgraded from the Polk LSi set to LSiM set
* upgraded from the Polk microPro 4000 sub to dual JL Audio Fathom F113 subs
* upgraded from Yamaha HTR-5590 receiver to Denon AVR-2808ci receiver
* upgraded from Denon AVR-2808ci receiver to Denon AVR-4810ci receiver
* upgraded from Denon AVR-4810ci receiver to Integra DHC-80.3 receiver
* added the W4S DAC-2
Maybe my ears aren't good enough to pick apart the goodness of the cables, or maybe the new gears don't need the help of the cables as much as the old gears, or something else that I don't know of, but that's my personal experience, and I've spent a lot of dough to come to this conclusion.
Integra DHC-80.3 / Oppo BDP-105 / DirecTV HR24 DVR /APC S15blk PC-UPS
Living room:
LSiM707's / LSiM706c / LSiM702 F/X's / dual JL Audio Fathom F113's / Parasound Halo A51 / Panasonic 65" TC-P65VT50
Bedroom:
Usher Dancer Mini 2 Diamond DMD's / Logitech SB Touch / W4S STP-SE / W4S DAC-2 / W4S ST-1000 / Samsung 52" LN52B750
Other rooms:
Audioengine AP4's / GLOW Audio Sub One / audio-gd NFB-3 DAC / Audioengine N22
audio-gd NFB-10.2 / Denon AH-D7000
I also, as a general rule of thumb, wouldn't spend a lot more money on cables than actual components and/or speakers. Meaning don't take that Onkyo receiver and DVDp and Cerwin Vega speakers and add $2K worth of cables and expect it magically sound awesome.
But within reason, within a budget, with an open mind finding extra synergy with cables can be VERY rewarding on the listening end.
H9
Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!