What makes yours, a 2ch rig?

Geoff4rfc

I can't believe I'm considering this.

Without spending several thousand dollars (if possible), what makes up a "decent" 2ch rig that includes a turntable and CD player?

My guess is; a stereo receiver or pre-amp, a tube amp, a pair of stereo speakers and the afore mentioned two sources, and cables of course. What am I missing?

gdb

Tapes,CDs or LPs. It's kinda funny to me that what is considered today, a low end Carver set-up like mine, could have kicked the living crap outa' some of the expensive, "state of the art" solid state rigs of 30-40 years ago. I know because I was around to hear them. High -end /high dollar didn't neccessarily mean high fidelity/quality sound reproduction back then. Washington has a lot of Carver gear "floating around" that you might find thru CL. SDAs are the "heart" of my 2channel bliss. (p/bl SRS2s ) Seldom used is my Thorens TD-145 TT which is great bang for very few bucks compared to many new, inferior tables at 4-5 times what I paid for it. ($200 ) Happy accumulating !

nhhiep

my 2 channel rig is when my center, rears aren't playing

teekay0007

Anything short of what DarqueKnight calls his 2-ch rig....well, why even listen at all? :biggrin:

F1nut

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

Without spending several thousand dollars (if possible), what makes up a "decent" 2ch rig that includes a turntable and CD player?

My guess is; a stereo receiver or pre-amp, a tube amp, a pair of stereo speakers and the afore mentioned two sources, and cables of course. What am I missing?

You've already got an AVR capable of use as a stereo pre amp, you've already got a left and right set of speakers, you've already got a (cough) power amp. Not sure if your Blu-ray player does CD's, but I'm guessing it does. TT....well, you sure don't need one to have a 2 channel rig. So, what is it about your rig in 2 channel that you don't like?

Geoff4rfc

F1nut wrote: »

So, what is it about your rig in 2 channel that you don't like?

That's a fair question. Your right, my BD player does play CD's and since the addition of my A9's, I've really been enjoying my music a whole lot more.

I really didn't know what I'd been missing and now I'm spending a lot more time in 2ch "pure audio" mode, more and more.

So my "gotta have more" tendency flared with the question; can I get even more out of my music if I dedicate a 2ch rig, or should I just appreciate my current set up as a dual action rig and call it a day?

tonyb

Thats a loaded question there. Alot depends on budget, and a seperate 2 channel system or combineing the 2 for one system.

deronb1

2 for 1 system is nice. Having a powerful amp opens up far more speaker choices. Not scared of 4 ohm speakers now.

tonyb

The reference to a 2 channel rig basically means 2 speakers. The rest of the gear is irrelevant, though using an avr in a 2 channel rig seems like a waste, some do it and are happy I guess. Most 2 channel rigs have seperates, maybe an integrated amp even, seperate pre, dac, then source of choice, cdp, SACD, vinyl, SB/Sonos, or just computer. Some incorporate subs, some don't. Whatever floats your boat on the gear side, but 2 channel is 2 speakers.

mhardy6647

are you asking about "mine" or "yours" (to be)? :-)

For record playback, you need a record player (duh...), a cartridge, an appropriate phono cartridge preamp/equalization network (about which more in a moment), some sort of preamplifier device that allows you to control volume and channel balance, a power amplifier, speakers, and cables to hook it all together.

Us old guys will often use the archaic word stereo to refer to a "two-channel hi-fi system" ;-)

It is possible to buy a single box containing the phono preamp, preamp and power amp components in the form of an integrated amplifier or a "stereo receiver" (integrated amplifier with built in AM/FM or at least FM stereo tuner). These are still available, but vintage/used is a very cost effective way to go.

A word about phono cartridges - practically speaking, there are two main families of popular cartridges, moving magnet (MM) types - which usually have output voltages on the order of several millivolts (mV), and moving coil (MC) types. There are, further, two flavors of MC cartridges; low output (LOMC) with outputs on the order of 100s of microvolts (uV) and high output (HOMC) with output levels similar to most MM cartridges. MM and HOMC may be used with typical phono preamps found in amps, receivers, and as standalone boxes. LOMC require either a pre-preamp ("head amp"), a step-up transformer (SUT), or a high-gain phono preamp. The latter will usually have switichable gain (amplification factor) for MM and (LO)MC cartridges. The situation is actually a little more complicated than that, as the optimum loading parameters (load resistance and capacitance) varies for different families of cartridges.

Generally speaking, the path of least resistance (no pun intended) is an MM cartridge and an appropriate preamp.

It is possible to get excellent sound for around a thousand smackers, or even less, by buying used.

... as to my 2-channel system, it looks a lot like this...



... actually, technically, it's a "2.1" channel system, I guess, as I do use - sometimes - a powered subwoofer (the charming black box in the photograph).

pietro944

D...I...V...O...R...C...E

mhardy6647

The photo above shows an older incarnation of the real hifi here in the living room... at the time, the phono preamp was a home-made SUT and a Bottlehead Seduction phono preamp (built from a kit, www.bottlehead.com ). The Seduction is a decent sounding preamp, but really doesn't have enough gain (I don't use an "active" preamp downstream from the phono preamp, only a "passive" autoformer-based volume control equipped with a source selector switch).

This is the phono preamp I am now using. It has built-in higher gain for LOMC cartridges, variable cartridge loading the easy way (two RCA phono jacks into which loading resistors may be inserted). Looks cheezy (especially with that "cyogenetics" I]sic[/I labeling!) but it sounds great. Not exactly an entry-level product, though.



The best value in MM phono preamps is probably the Bugle kit from Jim Hagerman: http://www.hagtech.com/bugle.html

There are many other popular choices, as a search here will readily disclose.

Syndil

My 2-channel rig is a Denon DCM-460 CD player connected directly to an Adcom GFA-545 amp via the variable analog outputs. I've tried many times to improve on it, but failed. Adding any sort of pre-amp into the mix takes away a little bit of clarity and adds a smidgen to the noise floor. Of course no pre-amp means no source switching, so I am pretty much stuck with just the CD player as my 2-channel source. If I do decide to eventually get back into vinyl and hook up the old Dual 1229, I'd looking into getting a passive pre-amp/input selector to switch between the sources, with a separate phono pre-amp.

michael1947

First: What Tonyb said.

Second: Well, a 2 channel rig is much more fun and portable and usually in another room and easily changeable. You get to try out different stuff and see what it sounds like, you make it pretty and mostly you have FUN.

You can put a 2 channel rig in your dining room, your living room, your workshop, your basement or cave or in your garage. As you begin to assemble the pieces your mind will start to wonder what if and then your creative brain cells will begin to take over.

Home theaters are a lot of work and very complex and once assembled I think leaving them alone is a good thing. 2 channel rigs allow us to continue to spend money and move things around without messing up the primary HT rig.

I'm always working on some kind of a 2 channel rig and thankfully I just recently went vinyl-less and said good-by to my last turntable which really simplifies potential 2 channel rigs. A DAC with some FLAC, some CD's redbook or SACD and maybe a tuner/receiver and u-b-good to go. As you know I like the big AVR's of yesterday as I think some can be excellent units for 2 channel like the TXSR 805 Yamaha Z1, etc., and they can be had for cheap.

My latest creation will be an Emotiva XDA-1 DAC/PRE with a killer remote, Emotiva ERC-2 CD player (whenever it ships) and an old Parasound HCA 2200. This combo will allow me to experiment with most any speakers and I'll start with some RTI A9's and then try these really pretty little (but heavy) LSI-9's and then switch to my old Maggies MGII coupled with a little REL-3 sub. I will want to rig up some a-b-c switching to compare and may look into other stuff along the way

Have fun.

cnh

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

That's a fair question. Your right, my BD player does play CD's and since the addition of my A9's, I've really been enjoying my music a whole lot more.

I really didn't know what I'd been missing and now I'm spending a lot more time in 2ch "pure audio" mode, more and more.

So my "gotta have more" tendency flared with the question; can I get even more out of my music if I dedicate a 2ch rig, or should I just appreciate my current set up as a dual action rig and call it a day?

Jesse's question remains! Are you happy with what you hear in Stereo (2 channel) or are you looking to go with a separate rig for that?

You could just upgrade your current system. Better CDP source would be the first thing I would do.

I use separate systems for HT and stereo. Below are the so-called two channel systems. Neither includes a TT. So that's optional.

I do also run some vintage systems that are dirt cheap and sound really good.

Example

Yamaha CR-800 receiver ($50)
ADS L520 bookshelves ($30)
Technics SL-D3 ($60)

Grand total $140. But sounds several times its worth. So you can put together a cheap phono system for not much. Unless you're really into vinyl and you want to go all out.

That cheapo Yamaha system above rivals the LSi 7/NAD system I have below...believe it or not?

cnh

sucks2beme

On a budget, you could do it pretty cheap. An older NAD, Denon integrated, ETC.
Maybe an old receiver of good quality. Add a basic TT, and a set of classic speakers.
Old Snells, AR's, Kefs, missions, the list goes on and on. Watch CL, do a little homework,
and you're all set.

mhardy6647

cnh wrote: »

...
Example

Yamaha CR-800 receiver ($50)
ADS L520 bookshelves ($30)
Technics SL-D3 ($60)

Grand total $140. But sounds several times its worth. So you can put together a cheap phono system for not much. Unless you're really into vinyl and you want to go all out.

That cheapo Yamaha system above rivals the LSi 7/NAD system I have below...believe it or not?

cnh

That would be a fine-sounding collection of hardware.

FWIW, the record player in my living room at the moment is a Technics SL-Q2 (the semi-automatic, "quartz-lock" sibling of the SL-D3 cnh mentioned). Note that you'll have to acquire a cartridge appropriate to the medium mass arm of the Technics. There are plenty of good choices from the bargain priced "Red Ed" or a bevy of Audio-Technica offerings, up to stratospherically-priced, hand-made, esoteric LOMCs.

FWIW^2, I use a Denon DL-103 LOMC, a cartridge with very low compliance and barely compatible with the Technics' arm... but a very satisfying phono cartridge to my ears and tastes.

EDIT: and, oh, out of deference to the fine folks providing us with this forum's bandwidth :-) ... a pair of Polk Audio Monitor Series 5, 7, or perhaps even 10 would also be a fine choice at a reasonable price point!

Geoff4rfc

cnh wrote: »

Jesse's question remains! Are you happy with what you hear in Stereo (2 channel) or are you looking to go with a separate rig for that?

You could just upgrade your current system. Better CDP source would be the first thing I would do.

Yes! I'm actually very happy with my current set up. My curiosity has me wondering how much better, if any, it could get.

What CDP would be an upgrade over my LGBD390?

tonyb

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

Yes! I'm actually very happy with my current set up. My curiosity has me wondering how much better, if any, it could get.

What CDP would be an upgrade over my LGBD390?

How much better is only limited by your wallet. For a good cdp, there were a few Jolida's in the FM that would be a significant upgrade, but before you go and spend 4-5-6 hundies on a cdp, maybe consider a Squeezebox Touch or Sonos system and put the cd's away.

heiney9

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

Yes! I'm actually very happy with my current set up. My curiosity has me wondering how much better, if any, it could get.

What CDP would be an upgrade over my LGBD390?

No disrespect to you or your system, but you have only scratched the surface as to "how much better is could get". A DVDp and Emo gear and Mono price cables isn't really close to being the pinnacle. Again, just having a dialog not ragging on you or your gear.

H9

decal

Send me about 15 grand and I'll put together a very nice stereo system for you and you can come over and listen to it whenever you want to. I'll heap on lots of praise for your system to boost your ego and I'll always let you know when we, er you, need to upgrade.. My paypal addy is ............:cheesygrin:

chandler9a

DSkip wrote: »

a comfortable chair.

hahaha so true, I would add a good beverage.

Geoff4rfc

heiney9 wrote: »

No disrespect to you or your system, but you have only scratched the surface as to "how much better is could get".
H9

None taken. I completely agree with your comment. I know my system is isn't low budget, but I also know it would be considered "entry level" compared to the high end that's out there.

I mean sure, one look at my gear and it's no secret I saved where I could (I especially appreciate the restraint shown by F1nut when referring to my amp).

And I've been looking into a handful of tube amps, yikes, those alone ($) would have my wife send me down the river.

So it's mostly intrigue that has me wondering, how much of an effort both financially and gear wise would it take to achieve a substantially better sound than what I have now.

gudnoyez

I always like to incorporate a turn table with the sytems I put together for music only. I like the ritual of cleaning and preparing a few albums for the evenings listen , a comfy chair, beverage, and some good old fashioned liner notes that have been read a time or two, 2 channel rigs can be a good time, and fun to put together.

Oldfatdogs

Just my two cents Geoff,think shop setup.Many hours of enjoyment while doing your projects.

F1nut

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

Yes! I'm actually very happy with my current set up. My curiosity has me wondering how much better, if any, it could get.

A lot.

Any real hifi shops in your neck of the woods? If so, check them out and take some of your music with you. Explain that you are just testing the waters right now, stating how much you might be willing to spend (if you were to actually buy new), so that they can show you what your money could buy. Also ask to hear their TOTL rig as a base line to compare with what you can afford and to hear how much better it can get.

PreCd

DSkip:

I had the same experiences just last October when I purchased decent gear. I replaced a Yamaha R9 and a Sony 5 disk CD changer with a Adcom GFA-555 amp, Adcom GFP-565 pre, and a Marantz CD5004 player. Jesse knows the trials I went through but really don't think he understood just how green I was. I never had a listening space which is a must. Still minimal at this time so space is critical I think. I went through my speakers 1st, multiple times I might add, with different brand of capacitors. Anyways after replacing all the electrolytics in my gear and learning that setting the bias current makes a huge difference I am finally also learning what "good" sounds like. My system is very solid but baseline stuff compared to many. So now I am looking to start upgrading as I see I can. Next stop a bottlehead DIY preamp for the 555.

To the OP listening space is something you really need to look at. Then purchase gear that fits the space you are listening in.

tonyb

Geoff,
Glad your diggin' your system, but maybe it might be more prudent to save up some coin, read up alot, and get an idea of a direction. I only say this because it's easy to get sucked into this hobby and upgrade to the constant latest and greatest. You can throw out alot of coin if you don't target where you want to go. So think about it, kick back, open a brew, jam out on the new system for awhile before you and your wallet take a leap of faith.:cheesygrin:

Geoff4rfc

F1nut wrote: »

A lot.

Any real hifi shops in your neck of the woods?

I'd have to cruise up to Seattle (ugg, a nightmare just thinking about it), but good advice, I can do that easy enough.

DSkip wrote: »

Geoff, I'm scratching the surface of 2 channel like you are, but can say that the more gear you rotate through, the better idea you get of what is possible with 2 channel. The improvements my system has gone through over the last year is phenomenal, and I haven't even begun the journey into separates yet. Once you start hearing the differences, its hard not to get excited about future improvements.

Now, my favorite hobby is 2 channel, not video games or movies like it used to be. Those hobbies just can't seem to compete with a good CD on a decent system and some bourbon in hand.

Thank you, I appreciate that information.

And as much as I love my movies, I've found myself quickly transitioning toward 2ch just since the upgrade to some decent speakers. I've always loved my music but have never owned anything to bring me into it until now. So I can totally relate to your last statement, except, I've got some cognac in hand :cool:

Geoff4rfc

PreCd wrote: »

To the OP listening space is something you really need to look at. Then purchase gear that fits the space you are listening in.

Noted, thank you.

tonyb wrote: »

Geoff,
Glad your diggin' your system, but maybe it might be more prudent to save up some coin, read up alot, and get an idea of a direction. I only say this because it's easy to get sucked into this hobby and upgrade to the constant latest and greatest. You can throw out alot of coin if you don't target where you want to go. So think about it, kick back, open a brew, jam out on the new system for awhile before you and your wallet take a leap of faith.:cheesygrin:

Thanks brother, that's exactly my plan.

DarqueKnight

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

I really didn't know what I'd been missing and now I'm spending a lot more time in 2ch "pure audio" mode, more and more.

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

Yes! I'm actually very happy with my current set up. My curiosity has me wondering how much better, if any, it could get.

What CDP would be an upgrade over my LGBD390?

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

And I've been looking into a handful of tube amps, yikes, those alone ($) would have my wife send me down the river.

So it's mostly intrigue that has me wondering, how much of an effort both financially and gear wise would it take to achieve a substantially better sound than what I have now.

A. When you shop for a house that is better than the one you have now, don't you have some idea of the location and features (square footage, # of bedrooms, # of bathrooms, etc.) you want? Don't you have some idea of how the new house will enhance your quality of life?

B. When you shop for a car that is better than the one you have now, don't you have some idea of the brand, features, engine power, reliability and performance you want? Don't you have some idea of how the new car will enhance your transportation capabilities?

When shopping for A and B above, it is prudent to personally evaluate many candidates and do a considerable amount of research. Applying the same logic to audio, what performance aspects of stereophonic reproduction are you looking to improve?

Do you want better image placement?
More image weight?
More clarity?
More detail?
More layering of depth?
Bigger sound stage?
Flatter, more accurate response?
More tactile sensation?
All of the above?

There is some correlation between price and performance, but without informative listening experience, you may not be able to perceive the enhanced performance of a higher quality system or component.

When seeking equipment recommendations, important disclosures are the type of music you listen to, current equipment, typical listening levels (in dB) and the size of the room and furniture arrangement. Someone saying that CD player X is better than what you have now may not be meaningful within the context of the music you listen to, how your ears perceive things and how CD player X will synergistically perform in your audio system in your room.

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

Without spending several thousand dollars (if possible), what makes up a "decent" 2ch rig that includes a turntable and CD player?

It is possible to put together a decent two channel rig below two thousand dollars if you shop wisely, particularly on the used market, and particularly if you keep an eye out for reliable, high performance vintage gear.

A decent two channel rig presents a satisfying illusion of music being performed in three dimensional space. Across the width of the sound stage, you should be able to perceive the locations of individual voices and instruments. You should also perceive a sense of front to back depth with some instruments being closer and farther away from the front edge of the sound stage. The clarity of sound coming from individual sound images should be of sufficient quality to allow quick and easy perception of what you are listening to. The sonic details of sound images should be convincingly close to the real thing. Of course, ideally, you should know what the real thing sounds like. There should be some tactile sensation due to vibrations coming through the air, floor and listening seat.

As you go up in quality, and as your ears and body become better acclimated to the the stereophonic illusion, what you hear and feel will get closer to an actual performance. In other words, spending more money will buy you more stereophonic realism.

Unfortunately, the opportunity to audition high quality stereo gear in a proper environment is getting rarer and rarer. I don't know if such opportunity exists in your city. If it does, I hope you are able to take advantage of it in a cordial setting with a knowledgeable salesperson.