Please present your lunch for inspection little Suzy...

nooshinjohn

You have a fundamental lack of understanding of what this country is rooftop59.

It is NO about fairness, it is about Equal Opportunity. It is not about social justice, rather equal justice. The other point I will pick on is that this nation was founded as a Representative Republic with democratic processes and not a Democracy. You really need to know and understand history. Liberalism and Progressivism are exactly the same thing, and they are a growing, clear and present danger to our republic and our way of life.

maximillian

rooftop59 wrote: »

... and it pisses me off and these threads just reinforce that I guess this is the only way that most people can or will engage is very difficult and important political issues (no ability to think reasonably, no patience for a nuanced discussion) .

Then, did you have to call some people on this thread, "gun-slinging anarchist libertarian polkies", and link to an article that has nothing to do with the thread parent? Perhaps next time try to stay on topic?

On that note... we decided long ago to send our kid to a private Christian school. We had a good one in NY but the ones in MA weren't nearly as good. So now we're home schooling, and it has been great. Kids are learning more in less time, and we can make sure their behavior is influenced by us and not the 20-30 other kids in a classroom setting. And of course we don't get any taste of this and other nonsense that goes on inside public schools.

steveinaz

Exactly Max, I let that one go, but found it interesting that he started the "mud slinging"--then he wanted to know why everyone else was slinging mud...it's like watching MSNBC...LOL

I'm kidding Texas, I'm kidding. It's all good, healthy debate in my eyes.

The funny thing is, by and large both parties want the same end results---it's how we get there that we disagree strongly about. Everybody wants a solid, successful educational system that is as accessable to the poor as everyone else. Everyone wants a stable economy. Everyone wants a strong national defense. Some believe that this can be orchestrated by 1 man and Government. Others believe that leveraging competition via the private market is the way to success. This is where it gets sticky. I grew up in a Democratic home, so I have a unique perspective. My father was a union sheet metal worker, and a Marine veteran of the Korean war. Though my brothers and I always tell my Dad that he is, in fact, a conservative---he disagrees. We know this through his parenting. We all had chores, there was no "allowance" chores were your way of contributing to the family. We paid room & board when we got our first jobs. He was teaching us that you don't live "free" when you're an adult. See what I mean? What he didn't tell us was that he was secretly putting the R&B money into a saving account for us, so when we finally left home, he presented us with a passbook full of money we thought had been spent.

rooftop59

steveinaz wrote: »

Define who "we" are. Is "we" the parents, or is "we" the government? I know my answer, what's yours?

I think that the "we" is not simply one person or nuclear family. The point of a democracy is that everyone is entitled to a fair shot. Will some people blow it? Sure. And should they have to get by on less? Sure. But at the very least children ought to have a fair share in a democracy.

rooftop59

steveinaz wrote: »

Exactly Max, I let that one go, but found it interesting that he started the "mud slinging"--then he wanted to know why everyone else was slinging mud...LOL

Yes I started the mud-slinging, because I hoped that it would stop the thread. But I also kinda like seeing Steve get all riled up. :eek::evil:

EndersShadow

Drenis wrote: »

Some interesting opinions you folks share south of the border with your views, values and government stance. I'm not going to join in but all I'll say is if you really want change so bad, why aren't YOU running for office?

At the rate things are going Drenis.... living north of the border starts to look better and better ......

P.S. John, shoot me your email via PM, got something funny for ya.....

rooftop59

nooshinjohn wrote: »

You have a fundamental lack of understanding of what this country is rooftop59.

It is NO about fairness, it is about Equal Opportunity. It is not about social justice, rather equal justice. The other point I will pick on is that this nation was founded as a Representative Republic with democratic processes and not a Democracy. You really need to know and understand history. Liberalism and Progressivism are exactly the same thing, and they are a growing, clear and present danger to our republic and our way of life.

Hmm...seems like a case of intuitions driving arguments with little or no basis in reason. Sound familiar?

nooshinjohn

rooftop59 wrote: »

Hmm...seems like a case of intuitions driving arguments with little or no basis in reason. Sound familiar?

My position is rooted in historical fact. Reason comes from knowing that truth and understanding it. I am confident by your statements that the history you know comes from sources that had an agenda to start with. I get mine for original sources and from the participant's own words and deeds. I suggest you start there too.


You have a TON of homework to do.:cool:

rooftop59

Umm...I have taken seminars reading the articles of the confederation, the declaration of independence, the constitution and amendments, all taught by libertarian decentralists. So I think I might be familiar with what you refer to...

The problem is not an issue of historicity but hermeneutics. Every reader is an interpreter, and every interpreter comes with her or his own intuitions. That is why I never mentioned facts, but reasons. A good reader/listener needs to be responsive to reasons. And because I am trying to do three things at once, I am admittedly not doing a very good job...

steveinaz

rooftop59 wrote: »

The point of a democracy is that everyone is entitled to a fair shot.

That Sir, is where we differ at the core. I am "entitled" to nothing. I make my "fair shots" with good decisions and sacrifices. Do you think I enlisted in the Army because I "wanted" to?....LOL

EndersShadow

steveinaz wrote: »

Do you think I enlisted in the Army because I "wanted" to?....LOL

I thought it was the thought of showering with other men (totally meant as a joke)

steveinaz

Funny stuff--but for real, our favorite prank was grabbing the guys clothes that were showering, and hiding them. Then watching them navagate the barracks hallway naked and embarrassed...LOL!! Good times.

Drenis

EndersShadow wrote: »

At the rate things are going Drenis.... living north of the border starts to look better and better ......

P.S. John, shoot me your email via PM, got something funny for ya.....

Take a read here then and you will change your mind...

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02/14/online-surveillance-bill-will-put-electronic-prisoners-bracelet-on-every-canadian/

nooshinjohn

rooftop59 wrote: »

I think that the "we" is not simply one person or nuclear family. The point of a democracy is that everyone is entitled to a fair shot. Will some people blow it? Sure. And should they have to get by on less? Sure. But at the very least children ought to have a fair share in a democracy.

If you are trying to give your kids a fair shot in a democracy, that's what they have in Iran, China and Venezuela. You should want your kids to have a fair shot in a republic, with a limited government and maximum freedom for all. The Constitution guarantees life, liberty and the freedom to persue happiness, not equal opportunity or equal outcomes. Nobody is entitled to anything more than their in-ailienable rights.

rooftop59

steveinaz wrote: »

That Sir, is where we differ at the core. I am "entitled" to nothing. I make my "fair shots" with good decisions and sacrifices. Do you think I enlisted in the Army because I "wanted" to?....LOL

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

the declaration seems to assume that everyone is entitled to certain things...or what on earth do you think "unalienable Rights" means?

evhudsons

I hate to admit it, but I kind of miss those soybean burgers they used to serve us, and the taco salad. I eat very well and do my own cooking so I know it was garbage good, but after sitting there hungry it sure tasted good to me then. I must have been old school. Our only choice was school lunch, or our own, and milk or chocolate milk but never saw a coke or fast food on campus ever.

EndersShadow

Drenis wrote: »

Take a read here then and you will change your mind...

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02/14/online-surveillance-bill-will-put-electronic-prisoners-bracelet-on-every-canadian/

Good lord.... maybe its time to move to one of the US territories lol.......

steveinaz

rooftop59 wrote: »

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

the declaration seems to assume that everyone is entitled to certain things...or what on earth do you think "unalienable Rights" means?

Yeah, unfortunately some believe that the "Pursuit of happiness" means "you have to make me happy." I'm well aware of Declaration of Independance and the Constitution. I fought in a war defending it. But thanks for the refresher.

Drenis

EndersShadow wrote: »

Good lord.... maybe its time to move to one of the US territories lol.......

Oh what you DONT know about Canada...

unc2701

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Nobody is entitled to anything more than their in-ailienable rights.

Good. God. You're telling him to read his history, yet somehow come up with "in-ailienable rights"?

sucks2beme

Please keep in mind some dim witted federal employee can also have you arrested with no trial
and hold you forever. Thank you both sides of congress for that. You think the lunch police are bad.

EndersShadow

Drenis wrote: »

Oh what you DONT know about Canada...

I know its like MN only with more snow and they say "eh" lots . That and your seniors like to come down here for surgeries and our seniors like to go up there to get meds

nooshinjohn

unc2701 wrote: »

Good. God. You're telling him to read his history, yet somehow come up with "in-ailienable rights"?

Sorry for the spelling... You cannot learn anything by having someone tell you to memorize this or that. You need to persue the truth for yourself. You will learn as much about yourself along the way as you learn about the subject you are studying.:cool:

EndersShadow

GLENN BECK FOR PRESIDENT!!!!!!!!!


..... (hides in the corner)

steveinaz

sucks2beme wrote: »

Please keep in mind some dim witted federal employee can also have you arrested with no trial
and hold you forever. Thank you both sides of congress for that. You think the lunch police are bad.

A prime example of sacrificing liberty for [wimpy voice] safety [/wimpy voice]. Safety 3rd, I always say. Live, get dirty, have a few stitches, break a bone or 2, climb out of the test-tube an live a little---it builds character.

unc2701

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Sorry for the spelling... You cannot learn anything by having someone tell you to memorize this or that. You need to persue the truth for yourself. You will learn as much about yourself along the way as you learn about the subject you are studying.:cool:

Well. You should read up on the distinction between inalienable and unalienable- it's precisely the sort of thing you'd enjoy. Some of TJ's early drafts had inalienable and much has been made of the final word choice in the context of the legal definitions of the time.

nooshinjohn

It all comes down to what your definition of the word "IS", is. I will call Bubba and ask him..:cheesygrin:

EndersShadow

Hey john, check your email. Should be good for a few laughs.......

steveinaz

Some people honestly believe that the government has a responsibility to provide for them. Crazy as that concept sounds--you'd be amazed at the numbers who believe this. This is what is destroying this country. Those folks are in for a shocker....real soon.

rooftop59

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Sorry for the spelling... You cannot learn anything by having someone tell you to memorize this or that. You need to persue the truth for yourself. You will learn as much about yourself along the way as you learn about the subject you are studying.:cool:

Wow dude. Really? You have said nothing about the problem of clashing intuitions, the difference between historical accuracy and hermeneutics, or the ways that ALL social institutions NECESSARILY limit our freedoms, yet you are telling me to learn instead of memorize? Ridiculous.