Planning out my 2 channel system: Step 1 - Help me find a pre

EndersShadow

I am looking to start planning out my 2 channel rig. I am wanting to keep this setup simple using as few items between source and speakers as possible and going used to keep the cost down.

I am looking for suggestions on a GOOD pre with volume control. It MUST have inputs for Squeezebox Touch (or Sonos) via optical or coaxial since my PC is my main source of music. It would be nice if it had inputs for a TT and CD player. I would prefer at least 2 digital inputs but if it only has 1 that would be fine as it would simply eliminate the need for a CD player.

I need it to allow me to connect sub(s) to it so I can incorporate those if I want to (yes I realize this isnt a purist approach, but whatever). I believe many NAD pre-amps have 2 sets of pre-outs (which would solve this problem) but I am not sure if there are others that do as well.

My main thought is to possibly have one sub for the left and one for the right if possible (but I could use 1 for everything)

I am gathering information at the current time and am not purchasing anything now. I am trying to get some brands/models you would recommend. In order to give you an idea of what I can spend I would prefer to keep the pre under 200 but can go up to 400 if justification can be provided.

With regards to purchasing an amp I am not sure what I will end up with, but it will be used. Whatever it is it needs to have decent 4 ohm power and be able to handle dips to 2 ohms (should I want to play with Maggies at some point). The amp will be the last piece I purchase more than likely.

I am leaning toward going with an all NAD setup, but want to know what else is out there that would fit my needs. I plan to purchase the pre first since I think it will be the cheaper of the two items and I can continue to use my HK 3490 for its amp section.

Thanks in advance.

heiney9

So you want a Phono pre-amp and a digital input in a 2 channel pre-amp??? That combo is rare and will cost you some coin. Essentially you are looking for a 2 channel pre-amp that has built in DAC's and a phono pre-amp? Good luck, not sure many exist.

You will probably have to go with an AVR, which IMO, compromises the sound and very few will have a phono section and those that do will have a poor phono section.

This is a tall order outside an AVR or a cheap Chinese "do it all" unit.

H9

steveinaz

Benchmark PRE and HDR both have 1 analog input, 3 coax, 1 toslink, and 1 USB; but only have 1 set of RCA outputs (or XLR). In preamp mode, it would fit what you're trying to do.

heiney9

Benchmark DAC1 PRE is the first one that comes to mind, but it's essentially a DAC first and pre-amp second. It does not have phono capabilites nor subwoofer outputs and only one analog input. Retail New is $1595.

What is low cost to you?

heiney9

There are probably some other higher end DAC's that can function as a pre-amp but none will have a phono section and many only have one analog input and output.

H9

steveinaz

What are his alternatives? Buy a phono pre--this isn't rocket science.

EndersShadow

heiney9 wrote: »

So you want a Phono pre-amp and a digital input in a 2 channel pre-amp??? That combo is rare and will cost you some coin. Essentially you are looking for a 2 channel pre-amp that has built in DAC's and a phono pre-amp? Good luck, not sure many exist.

You will probably have to go with an AVR, which IMO, compromises the sound and very few will have a phono section and those that do will have a poor phono section.

This is a tall order outside an AVR or a cheap Chinese "do it all" unit.

H9

So if I eliminated the TT, do you have any suggestions? I am trying to stay away from an AVR as an option. Right now I have a TT that was given to me free and all of 1 Record. I am almost 100 percent digital (with all the CD's as well) at this point.

So realistically as long as I can play my FLAC files thats all I really need. The rest would be nice, but I can get by without it since I dont have darn near anything invested in those formats.

**edit** I should also clarify on the subs. I believe I could always just use a splitter from each left/right out from the pre one for each sub. I would connect that to the LFE and then manually adjust the crossover......right?

heiney9

Many people buy a small stand alone phono pre-amplifer that then plugs into an analog input on the pre-amp. There are SS and tube units that cover the entire cost chain depending on where you want to be.

I know the Wired For Sound DAC can function as a pre-amp as well.

What is low cost to you?

Monarchy 33B or 22C or 18B DAC can function as a pre-amp and they are stellar units, but don't come up for sale too often but are very reasonable.

H9

steveinaz

If you eliminate the need for an analog input, BM Dac1's can be found around $500 used, and also have a preamp mode. The preamp section of the Benchmark is as good any stand-a-lone pre I've owned, sans my Placette linestage. See Stereophiles review--it measures outstandingly, and sounds very good.

heiney9

So how are you envisioning the SQB being hooked up? Are you using the internal DAC's in the SQB or are you wanting an external DAC? Also what connections are coming out of your PC and are you just using the PC with the SQB or are you wanting to also hook up the PC to the pre-amp?

These are very important questions, because something doesn't make sense in this post

I am looking for suggestions on a GOOD pre with volume control. It MUST have inputs for Squeezebox Touch (or Sonos) via optical or coaxial since my PC is my main source of music. It would be nice if it had inputs for a TT and CD player. I would prefer at least 2 digital inputs but if it only has 1 that would be fine as it would simply eliminate the need for a CD player.

EndersShadow

heiney9 wrote: »

So how are you envisioning the SQB being hooked up? Are you using the internal DAC's in the SQB or are you wanting an external DAC? Also what connections are coming out of your PC and are you just using the PC with the SQB or are you wanting to also hook up the PC to the pre-amp?

These are very important questions, because something doesn't make sense in this post

My computer has coaxial out only (spdif is broke on the motherboard header). Here are the possible setups I envision:

1. Computer via coaxial -> Pre -> Amp -> Speakers
2. Squeezebox Touch via coaxial (or spdif) -> Pre -> Amp -> Speakers

Of those choices #2 is my prefered but if I get a pre before I get the squeezebox then I need to use #1. I do not plan on having both connected at the same time.

I was under the assumption that pre-amps contained internal DAC's in them. I was planning/hoping on using the DAC's in the pre for all conversion as good optical/coaxial cables are much cheaper than good RCA cables (i.e. MIT Shotguns), and by only needing one set of good RCA's I can minimize cost there.

gdb

Here's a tubed DAC that stereophile liked very much and just might be a bargain at auction. If I weren't already tapped out for the "season", I'd probably bid on it. :sad:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/California-Audio-Labs-Sigma-II-Tube-Analog-Processor-DAC-/290642188842?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43ab9fda2a

heiney9

^^^ That's not at all what the OP is looking for.

Did you actually read the first post??

H9

EndersShadow

@ steve: I notice the DAC1 doesnt have a remote, I should have mentioned I would prefer something with a remote (or an app you can download to control it).

heiney9

EndersShadow wrote: »

My computer has coaxial out only (spdif is broke on the motherboard header). Here are the possible setups I envision:

1. Computer via coaxial -> Pre -> Amp -> Speakers
2. Squeezebox Touch via coaxial (or spdif) -> Pre -> Amp -> Speakers

Of those choices #2 is my prefered but if I get a pre before I get the squeezebox then I need to use #1. I do not plan on having both connected at the same time.

I was under the assumption that pre-amps contained internal DAC's in them. I was planning/hoping on using the DAC's in the pre for all conversion as good optical/coaxial cables are much cheaper than good RCA cables (i.e. MIT Shotguns), and by only needing one set of good RCA's I can minimize cost there.

The best quality you will get is streaming wirelessly from your router to the SQB. I wouldn't use an onboard soundcard via Coax or Toslink because of all the noise issues that can occur because of implementation. You are not isolating anything internal in the PC which is bad thing.

So you are NOT wanting to use the dac's in the SQB? If not then you need to be concentrating on a DAC that is better than the SQB's. If you use the SQB's DAC's then you don't need a pre-amp/DAC which would lower your cost. You would need a traditional pre-amp.

H9

heiney9

EndersShadow wrote: »

I was under the assumption that pre-amps contained internal DAC's in them.

No that's not the case at all. You are actually looking at DAC's that can serve some pre-amp functions.

H9

gdb

heiney9 wrote: »

^^^ That's not at all what the OP is looking for.

Did you actually read the first post??

H9

Yeah yeah, chill commandant! I just thought it was interesting, if a little off topic.

heiney9

EndersShadow wrote: »

@ steve: I notice the DAC1 doesnt have a remote, I should have mentioned I would prefer something with a remote (or an app you can download to control it).

Ok, the APP is to control the SQB not the pre-amp. I am not aware of any manufacturer making a remote controlled pre-amp that you download an APP to run it.

H9

steveinaz

EndersShadow wrote: »

@ steve: I notice the DAC1 doesnt have a remote, I should have mentioned I would prefer something with a remote (or an app you can download to control it).

Got'cha, yeah that would require an HDR, and they're pretty expensive.

MrGlobe

How big of a room are you going to be listening in? Have you chosen the speakers yet?

That HK 3490 is no slouch, it would definitely be interesting to hear the difference in sound between it and a NAD seperates system. What is it that you are unhappy with about the 3490?

heiney9

NAD doesnt offer what he is looking for so the idea of NAD seperates is out the door.

H9

EndersShadow

heiney9 wrote: »

The best quality you will get is streaming wirelessly from your router to the SQB. I wouldn't use an onboard soundcard via Coax or Toslink because of all the noise issues that can occur because of implementation. You are not isolating anything internal in the PC which is bad thing.

So you are NOT wanting to use the dac's in the SQB? If not then you need to be concentrating on a DAC that is better than the SQB's. If you use the SQB's DAC's then you don't need a pre-amp/DAC which would lower your cost.

H9

I am not against it, however it just bumps up the cost of cables since I would need a set of RCA's from the Squeezebox to the pre and then from the pre to the amp. I just dont know if the increased cost is cables would be greater or less than the cost of a pre-amp/DAC combo. I would like your thoughts since I know you've run both type setups.

If I used the DAC's in the Squeezebox what would you recommend in the pre department?

heiney9 wrote: »

No that's not the case at all. You are actually looking at DAC's that can serve some pre-amp functions.

H9

Thank you for clearing that up. 2 channel isnt my thing as I run an integrated HK for my rig right now and my Integra does everything for my downstairs.

heiney9

Benchmark
Stello
W4S
Monarchy

Possibly NuForce or Red Wine

are some that come to mind.

How about that budget? You haven't yet stated what "low cost" is to you?

H9

EndersShadow

heiney9 wrote: »

How about that budget? You haven't yet stated what "low cost" is to you?

I did in the first post. I was hoping to come in around 200 but can bump to 400 if needed/justified. Assuming if I use the Squeezebox for its DAC's I should be able to stay within this.

EndersShadow wrote: »

I am gathering information at the current time and am not purchasing anything now. I am trying to get some brands/models you would recommend. In order to give you an idea of what I can spend I would prefer to keep the pre under 200 but can go up to 400 if justification can be provided.

It looks like if I dont use the DAC's in the Squeezebox I might be WAAAYYYY over budget.

heiney9

EndersShadow wrote: »

I am not against it, however it just bumps up the cost of cables. I just dont know if the increased cost is cables would be greater or less than the cost of a pre-amp/DAC combo. I would like your thoughts since I know you've run both type setups.

For me a stand alone DAC and power supply is a must.

I think the idea of a nice DAC that has pre-amp function is solid, but a nice sounding unit won't be all that cheap. The Monarchy's are very nice when they come up for sale but probably won't be able to do the subwoofer out, etc.

You could find a nice NAD pre-amp and a set of cables probably for less than DAC/pre, but the DAC/pre, while ultimately costing more, will sound better if you get one of the units mentioned (Benchmark, Monarchy, W4S, etc.)

H9

heiney9

EndersShadow wrote: »

I did in the first post. I was hoping to come in around 200 but can bump to 400 if needed/justified. Assuming if I use the Squeezebox for its DAC's I should be able to stay within this.



It looks like if I dont use the DAC's in the Squeezebox I might be WAAAYYYY over budget.

Yes you will be.

If you keep your eyes peeled for a used Monarchy 18B or Monarchy 22B you could probably stay around or under $400, but it could be months before you find one for sale.

heiney9

At your budget

I'd go with something like a used NAD pre-amp and decent set of analog cables and use the SQB's internal DAC's. I would also strongly recommend streaming wirelessly (if you have a wireless router) to the SQB or just hard wiring with an Ethernet cable and bypassing the PC's onboard soundcard completely.

EndersShadow

heiney9 wrote: »

You could find a nice NAD pre-amp and a set of cables probably for less than DAC/pre, but the DAC/pre, while ultimately costing more, will sound better if you get one of the units mentioned (Benchmark, Monarchy, W4S, etc.)

So given the fact I want the option of running a sub or two, you would suggest going with the Squeezebox Touch DAC's, a Pre amp with 2 sets of pre-outs and 2 sets of good interconnects between them. Correct?

EndersShadow

heiney9 wrote: »

At your budget

I'd go with something like a used NAD pre-amp and decent set of analog cables and use the SQB's internal DAC's. I would also strongly recommend streaming wirelessly (if you have a wireless router) to the SQB or just hard wiring with an Ethernet cable and bypassing the PC's onboard soundcard completely.

You beat me to the punch. I also would hardwire the Touch, I hate doing wireless unless there is no other option.

Also when you say "decent" analog cables what are you refering to? Signal Cable, MIT AVT, MIT Shotgun, etc. We all have different definitions of "decent" .

heiney9

I notice absolutely no difference, nor have I had a single issue using wireless. Not to mention it's a helluva lot more convenient, but either way don't use the soundcard for SQB hook-up.

H9

heiney9

EndersShadow wrote: »

So given the fact I want the option of running a sub or two, you would suggest going with the Squeezebox Touch DAC's, a Pre amp with 2 sets of pre-outs and 2 sets of good interconnects between them. Correct?

At your budget, I'm afraid there isn't much of an option.

You could look at some Chinese made DAC's w/pre-amp functions but they won't be any better than the internal dac's in the SQB so you gain nothing there. Some may sound worse. The costlier DAC's with pre-amp functions will sound better, but then they cost more too.