Audiophile vs. Listener
Comments
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mhardy6647 wrote: »If one can sit through the entirety of Jazz at the Pawnshop and claim to have enjoyed the experience - one is probably an audiophile.
Guily as charged your honor:razz:
Gordon2 Channel -
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Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8) -
Shocker they actually had a pair that worked long enough to even compare.... sounds the same as a pair of Futterman OTL tube mono blocks as the results of a double blind test showed? -
Here is a measurable fact....not all tube gear has audible distortion throughout the frequency range.Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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Double blind tests as they relate to audio are completely worthless.
On this point we will simply have to agree to disagree.
RT-12, CS350-LS, PSW-300, Infinity Overture 1, Monoprice RC-65i
Adcom GFA-545II, GFA-6000, Outlaw Audio 990, Netgear NeoTV
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Monster AVL-300, HTS-2500 MKII -
I don't know why A/B blind tests are simply dismissed as not being reliable. Yet a "Videophile" can instantly see the difference between TV's (properbly calibrated of course). Is it because our eyes are that much more precise than our ears or maybe the audiophiles always claim foul because they can't hear any difference & their hi-end gear can't be picked out of the line up with dare I say...mid-fi gear. I guess it can be a tad bit embarraseing.
Cables (IC's & PC"s) might test the ears somewhat more but if you can't discern any audible difference then I guess maybe there isn't any. And don't give me that BS that it takes 2 weeks to discern any difference. Either it's audible or it's not, no excuses please.
When we were at Dan's audio store having our LSiM703 demo with other speakers (Focal & Paradigm) the difference between all the monitors was immediately picked up by all in the room. Not even close or with a bit of hesitation. The audible difference between the top end, mid range & bass was quite evident. I guess it wasn't totally a "scientific" A/B but man oh man was it ever clear to our ears."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
No actually (in at least some respects) our auditory acuity exceeds out visual acuity in terms of resolution and (ahem... I think!) dynamic range.
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?102097-The-human-eye-can-process-much-more-information-than-the-human-ear&highlight=visual -
A/B is quite useful, especially if I want to make sure placebo hasn't got a hold on me. My ears have "bad days" too, so A/B'ing lets me verify things. It's just not the end-all be all that the labcoats claim it is.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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The average audiophiles I know spend more time tweaking and talking about their systems than they do listening to them. Most want to hear some minute little detail they have never heard before and all the while they could care less about the rest of the song. All this upgrading madness does lead to an improved system if pieced together with synergy in mind first. I have heard many VERY expensive systems that sound like crap.Everything matters. That is all.
Money cannot buy happiness, but it sure can buy a bad **** boat to pull up along side it though. -
I completely disagree. I think they are good for showing us what we really can and cannot hear; in other words, separating out the placebo effect from actual differences. However, if you don't believe in them, so be it.
Once one learns how to listen they trust their ears. It doesn't seem that you're there yet.If that's what the test showed, sure. In fact, I consider that a real complement to the designer of the tube amps. It sounds like they managed to avoid the rolling off the high end and higher distortion of that are typical of a tube amp.
That's laughable.I've heard tube amps, and I can see why some may like them, however, they are not my cup of tea. The rolled off highs are just too laid back for my tastes. I'll stick with my SS equipment with flat frequency response and lower distortion; well, as long as I don't overdrive the amp, which I don't.
Tube amps can have a flat frequency response and inaudible disortion just as a sand amp can. And that rolled off highs comment....I don't know, maybe you don't know what natural highs are suppose to sound like.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Yet a "Videophile" can instantly see the difference between TV's
Double blind and looking at a TV......what's wrong with that picture.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I have a modest little system not nearly as good as most of you. That doesn't mean I don't want or desire the best sound from my system that it can reproduce. Sure I would love to upgrade all my stuff but can't. I'm always tweaking my system to get the best sound out of what I have. Sure, I've been to more audio stores than I can count and listened to super systems and have heard crap there too that was not worth the money. Being a musician reproduced sound is important to me. Living within my means is important too. If I see an upgradable piece that I can afford, I'll get it, if not I'll do the best with what I have.
I have friends and family who do not understand how excited I get if I score a nice piece of equipment. You know how it is, you can't wait to put it into the chain and give it a listen. Because I have a modest system and that's what I can afford, does that make me less of an Audiophile than you? I think not, if you think different, I think that just makes you a Pile. :biggrin:
So when you visit a friend, who has less than what you have but has the desire for the same sound thing as you do, don't be a snob. This is a hobby that we all share. -
On that note, I'm wearing a pair of French silk squirrel covers. Beats the Hell outa my Fruit o' the Looms and further enhances my listening experience. :cheesygrin:
What's the thread count on yours, Mike? I've been wondering if moving from the 500 count to the 750 count was worth the extra money.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
This is true. Blind tests aren't the end-all-be-all, and listening is important. However, to completely dismiss blind tests is just absurd.A/B is quite useful, especially if I want to make sure placebo hasn't got a hold on me. My ears have "bad days" too, so A/B'ing lets me verify things. It's just not the end-all be all that the labcoats claim it is.
Once one learns to understand the limits of our human bodies, specifically ones own body, they will understand that ones senses cannot be trusted at all times. It doesn't seem that you're there yet.Once one learns how to listen they trust their ears. It doesn't seem that you're there yet.
I'm glad I could amuse you. However, I stand behind what I said.That's laughable.
Please point me to some tube amps that you think have a flat frequency response. If you prefer the highs of tube amp, it seems clear to me that you are the one who does not know what natural highs are supposed to sound like. I compare my audio listening experience to the real thing, and real life does not roll off the highs.Tube amps can have a flat frequency response and inaudible disortion just as a sand amp can. And that rolled off highs comment....I don't know, maybe you don't know what natural highs are suppose to sound like. -
Audio Research build some of what are probably the better examples of tube amps with good measuerments.Ofcourse the resulting frequency response linearity of a tube amp driving a real loudspeaker load is highly dependant upon the quality of the output transformer.The better units with quality output iron should have response variances of only a fraction of a db at the audible frequency extemes assuming a reasonable load.Please point me to some tube amps that you think have a flat frequency response.
And to add some of that rolled off impression may not be entirely frequency response related so much as the lack of higher order harmonics that can impart a certain impression of brightness to some amplifiers. -
This is true. Blind tests aren't the end-all-be-all, and listening is important. However, to completely dismiss blind tests is just absurd.
When double blind tests in audio regularly result in 50/50 splits, that is what is absurd.Once one learns to understand the limits of our human bodies, specifically ones own body, they will understand that ones senses cannot be trusted at all times. It doesn't seem that you're there yet.
I trust my senses at all times. Sorry you haven't gotten that far.I'm glad I could amuse you. However, I stand behind what I said.
Your choice to look foolish.Please point me to some tube amps that you think have a flat frequency response. If you prefer the highs of tube amp, it seems clear to me that you are the one who does not know what natural highs are supposed to sound like. I compare my audio listening experience to the real thing, and real life does not roll off the highs.
From one quick look at a leading tube gear company. Read it and weep, "Frequency Response at 110W full power: 15 Hz to 40 kHz FLAT"Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Thank you, I will look into some of those amplifiers. I am genuinely curious to give some of these a listen, assuming I can find a decent audio shop around here. As for harmonics, I can see how they could cause that impression.Audio Research build some of what are probably the better examples of tube amps with good measuerments.Ofcourse the resulting frequency response linearity of a tube amp driving a real loudspeaker load is highly dependant upon the quality of the output transformer.The better units with quality output iron should have response variances of only a fraction of a db at the audible frequency extemes assuming a reasonable load.
And to add some of that rolled off impression may not be entirely frequency response related so much as the lack of higher order harmonics that can impart a certain impression of brightness to some amplifiers.
It's not absurd, it means there is no discernible difference. I'm sorry if a piece of expensive, esoteric audio equipment isn't actually any better than a $200 Japanese SS receiver. Actually, I'm not sorry, I'm happy. That means I don't have spend ginormous sums of money to get a good system.When double blind tests in audio regularly result in 50/50 splits, that is what is absurd.
Then you fail to understand your own limits. They do exist, and your denial of them will only serve to cause you trouble in life.I trust my senses at all times. Sorry you haven't gotten that far.
I don't doubt it makes me look that way in your eyes. However, it is clear you have an aversion to scientific studies if they do not support your viewpoint.Your choice to look foolish.
Well, without actually telling me what company that is, it doesn't provide me any real data. FTGV, on the other hand, actually gave me helpful information, as well as something to look into.From one quick look at a leading tube gear company. Read it and weep, "Frequency Response at 110W full power: 15 Hz to 40 kHz FLAT" -
It's not absurd, it means there is no discernible difference. I'm sorry if a piece of expensive, esoteric audio equipment isn't actually any better than a $200 Japanese SS receiver. Actually, I'm not sorry, I'm happy. That means I don't have spend ginormous sums of money to get a good system.
You're a bigger fool than you first let on.Then you fail to understand your own limits. They do exist, and your denial of them will only serve to cause you trouble in life.
Understanding my limits and trusting my senses are not the same. Want to try again?I don't doubt it makes me look that way in your eyes. However, it is clear you have an aversion to scientific studies if they do not support your viewpoint.
I do not have an aversion to scientific studies. What I have an aversion to is people like you that can't function without them. You're just like the many others that have come and gone before you, saying the same old stuff. You have an extremely limited knowledge of audio, yet act like you know at all because you read it somewhere.Well, without actually telling me what company that is, it doesn't provide me any real data. FTGV, on the other hand, actually gave me helpful information, as well as something to look into.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize that I had to hold your hand. The company is Manley. I trust you can find their site on your own.
This will most likely end our little back and forth as I have grown tired of your nonsense. Please try not to spread your lack of understanding and misinformation around here any longer, most of us already know better.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I see another tube amps company needs to buy a better oscilloscope or it's time to recalibrate the old one. :idea:Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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What are we talking about?
Oh yea..I'm in the Listener will enjoy anything at any fidelity level/ Audiophile constantly tries to replicate real sound.
I think 90% of us fall in between there somewhere not being satisfied with what we have but not having the coin to do any thing real about it. Meaning not having $250k to drop on a system but still being happy about the $10k we did knowing there's better but drawing the line somewhere close to reality.
1CToo much **** to list.... -
Being that it's French silk it contains no threads, Jesse. Just cream butter, eggs, sugar and chocolate whipped to a smooth consistency.
You've been in paradise too long.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Okay.You're a bigger fool than you first let on.
Except that you still fail to understand that your senses have limits. However, that is okay; it is your problem, not mine.Understanding my limits and trusting my senses are not the same. Want to try again?
Science is a part of our lives, and I choose to embrace it. If it weren't for science, we as a human species never would have evolved past caveman times. I, like most humans, have a quest for knowledge and want to grow and learn, and that is where science comes in.I do not have an aversion to scientific studies. What I have an aversion to is people like you that can't function without them. You're just like the many others that have come and gone before you, saying the same old stuff. You have an extremely limited knowledge of audio, yet act like you know at all because you read it somewhere.
As for my supposed limited knowledge of audio, that's just an incorrect assumption. However, that is okay. I'm just some faceless guy on the internet, so I wouldn't necessarily expect you to believe everything I say. I would, however, hope that it might prompt you and others to do their own research on the subject.
As far as your aversion to "people like me," that's fine as well. I don't expect or need everyone to like me. I have strong viewpoints, and I have no problem expressing them. I can also be quite blunt and enjoy a good discussion/debate. However, I would like to note that I have no aversion to you or "people like you." I may not agree with your viewpoint, but it certainly doesn't cause me to dislike you.
I'm pretty sure it was already made clear prior to that post that I had limited knowledge of tube amps. Therefore saying "leading tube gear company" really wasn't enough information for me to find them. However, now that you have given me the name, a quick Google search allowed me to find their website. Thank you.I'm sorry, I didn't realize that I had to hold your hand. The company is Manley. I trust you can find their site on your own.
First, I can admit when I am wrong, and I will say it very clearly: I have limited knowledge of tube amps, and will be looking into the subject more prior to speaking on it.This will most likely end our little back and forth as I have grown tired of your nonsense. Please try not to spread your lack of understanding and misinformation around here any longer, most of us already know better.
As far as DBT goes, that is more about opinion than anything. There appears to be evidence to back up both viewpoints, but no solid facts either way. Regardless of whether we agree or not, that doesn't preclude us having a discussion regarding it. However, I will certainly not force it on you. -
You've been in paradise too long.
.........or not long enough, seems to be alittle light on the pie lately.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
What are we talking about?
Oh yea..I'm in the Listener will enjoy anything at any fidelity level/ Audiophile constantly tries to replicate real sound.
I think 90% of us fall in between there somewhere not being satisfied with what we have but not having the coin to do any thing real about it. Meaning not having $250k to drop on a system but still being happy about the $10k we did knowing there's better but drawing the line somewhere close to reality.
1C
Right on, as many of you have chimed in. Personally I think if you like music and you like music wherever you go whether it be home, car, boat, camping, stuck in an insanely uncomfortable room with an unruly mother-in-law you may be on the path to being an "audiophile".
I don't see Audiophile is something you are as much as a path to something you want to be doing. Most of us have many hobbies so audio and video is somewhere on the bell curve of life priorities for most of us, even the most die hard self described audiophiles. Some are on the low end, some the high. I deal with millionaires all day long that have nice TV's and no hd being fed to them, and crappy low end jam box for a stereo. You don't have to spend a lot at once to be an audiophile, but you will have to make it a higher priority throughout your life in stages if you want to get there. You also can spend 250k on an audio system just to call yourself an audiophile and not be near the audiophile as some of us here on limited budgets and equipment.
My favorite all time quote on this forum is from DarqueKnight, "Careful and consistent listening will cause your ears to evolve".
As long as you do that, you are an audiophile in my book. I at least will have something to talk with you about if you have any interest in audio and improving your stock.
I started not by hot-wiring and stealing cars like my peers down the street but helping a friend uninstall his car 8track and install a Kmart tape deck that at the time went for a walloping $100. It sounded like total crap. From that point on I had a desire to have something better than the crap I have. I also like to share my audio knowledge with others if they are interested.
Here is one way to look at it. If the highest end most well equiped audiophile ran into another that had the same claim, they would look at each other and either say "your stuff is crap", or they would sit down and share the knowledge and enjoyment that each have with their careful and consistent listening experiences. The equipment is merely getting you there. Being an audiophile is a choice, a path, and a commitment. My wife had a HTIB. She was fine with that, but not now. I think we all started off small. I started with a wire and an earpiece hooked to a clothesline for am stations. I then moved to a handheld am radio. Then FM. Then my dad's old stereo he gave me when I got good grades. I kept most of that system for a long time, including the McDonald turntable.
Polk SDA CRS+ was my first jump into the rabbit hole that would be considered audiophile at least in my world. Even at the time there were some that had very expensive setups, but no one really gave me teasing. If someone teases you either they are an ****$hat or they are just kidding. When I had to go to a gym to rehab a smashed shoulder I thought the meatheads would tease me for being weak, but they only offered pointers and help, and never made me feel small or inadequate. I was there doing what they were there doing, and everyone starts somewhere. Even the biggest muscle bound guy would be able to tell you where they started and how it was an evolution and not an overnight result.
Being an audiophile in my humble opinion should be the same way. Some people could care less if they hear the difference. Then I would not talk audio with them. Other people are trying to get the most for the money for audio and video. For them I have conversations and they are grateful for the help. I just helped my neighbor select a Polk Audio soundbar for his budget. In small steps we make giant leaps, and the rabbit hole seems to go to on.
I have finally gotten my inductors burned in, somewhat. I have my external amp hooked up properly. I just realized my AVR's Mcacc worked great, until I tried my iphone's app that has an spl meter and realized that my system was not calibrated correctly. Just a few months ago I would read the above three sentences and have no idea what that all meant.
Now my system sounds so good even car commercials sound like I just paid to hear them at a concert.
I have only yet to begin my quest for going deep down the rabbit hole but don't be afraid of those first steps.
I'm proud of what I have on my limited budget. A friend came over and noticed my CRS+ stands and was impressed that I got my local propeller welder to make them from scrap boatyard aluminum but to the original specs from Polk that are found on this forum on a sticky thread.
Folks here are audiophiles, that is why you can ask your question, state your desires, your budget, and you will get invaluable information on your life long quest to be an audiophile. One day you might actually become a self actualized audiophile!Polk Audio SDA CRS+ crossover 4.1TL by Trey/VR3 (Rings and custom stand by Larry)-Polk Audio SDA SRS2 crossovers by Trey/VR3Parasound HCA1500aYamaha rxa-3070 with musicast-Celestion SL6S presence,- sl9 surround backNHTsuper1's surroundMagnepan SMGParasound 1500pre- Sofia "Baby" tube amp - Monitor Audio Silver RX2 Marantz 2230/B&Kst140Technics 1200mk2 Gamertag: IslandBerserker I am but a infinitesimally small point meeting the line of infinity in the SDA universe -
Well said...
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I'll put myself into the listener category.
I do have an Audiophile friend and have spent many hours listening to music at his place..also compared different amps on his system and really like how tube amps sound. For years he's been bugging me to buy his extra set of Gallo Reference 2's.. I may just have to finally knuckle down and get them. -
Must one be an audiophile to enjoy 2-3k speakers, and matching high end components? By this I mean would someone who enjoys listening to music enjoy say $500. speakers, and a $300 receiver just as much? Does the average listener get as much out of high end gear to justify the cost, vs. an audiophile?
If one is smart about it and wants the "best for the money" for that same price you mention, you can buy a used a $2000 speaker for 400 - 500$ and a good amp or tube integrated or SS integrated for 300-400$...
I know not the same point but, for some of us, part of the "game" of getting the best sound we can for the $ while sticking to a budget or finding good deals used. So if a true audiophile or just a average listener trying to get the best sound for the money goes out and buys a new 500$ speaker and a $300 receiver instead of looking for something that will be 20X better on the used market, then that person is just a fool.
Sory to bring a different spin to this thread.Klipsch The Nines, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's. -
I'm an audiophile.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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Actually Ernie you said it very well. I got rid of my new pioneer to get one that is older but better and has preouts so I can hook up a used but great parasound amp. I just bought last night a deal on an adcom gfa555 amp and will use it to power my subwoofer rather than the other pioneer avr I was using. I look at my local craigslist for electronic deals, and ebay for polk sda deals as well as audiogon etc. I am constantly tweaking settings, moving furniture etc.
But really most of my time is enjoying my music number one, and movies two.
I think the op is actually a closet or unwitting audiophile waiting to happen. He's here on this forum, and asked a good question pertaining to what his situation is and is looking for input to help him make a proper decision. Even if he gets a HTIB I bet that won't last more than a year when the dvd portion breaks, he has to throw out the whole thing, and his neighbor is rocking it up with a system that began with just a few more dollars.
advice from my own experience:
get the best speakers used you can afford now.
get a good receiver or preamp that has preouts, don't worry about 3d hdmi and such, you won't use them more than likely. Then get a good amp to power your fronts, then move on from there.
Scour this forum for information, and then ask questions. Informed questions will give you the best informed answers.
As far as the OP's original question, who knows the answer? It's up to you to evolve your ears. You may have something between the ears now or maybe not. Either way, if you want to start somewhere and follow the careful and consistent listening program, start with all the good advice you find here. I have and I'm dang happy I did!
good luck!Polk Audio SDA CRS+ crossover 4.1TL by Trey/VR3 (Rings and custom stand by Larry)-Polk Audio SDA SRS2 crossovers by Trey/VR3Parasound HCA1500aYamaha rxa-3070 with musicast-Celestion SL6S presence,- sl9 surround backNHTsuper1's surroundMagnepan SMGParasound 1500pre- Sofia "Baby" tube amp - Monitor Audio Silver RX2 Marantz 2230/B&Kst140Technics 1200mk2 Gamertag: IslandBerserker I am but a infinitesimally small point meeting the line of infinity in the SDA universe -
Being an audiophile is a level of commitment, it's not a price tag.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
