To tl SDA 2B or not?
muncybob
Posts: 3,042
I'm definatley going to have my crossovers updated. My 2b's have had the RDO 194 tweeters in them for a few years now and initially I was ging to keep them and have the crossovers worked on and install binding posts(along with Larrys rings, JB weld and spikes). I had not really thought about going tl until an interesteding offer involving a tl'd crossover was made to me. So, perhaps I will sell the 194's, pick up the 198's& related crossover and go tl.....but, what makes going tl favorable to just modding the crossovers and sticking with the 194's?
Yep, my name really is Bob.
Parasound HCA1500A(indoor sound) and HCA1000(outdoor sound), Dynaco PAS4, Denon DP1200 w/Shure V15 Type V and Jico SAS stylus, Marantz UD7007, Polk L600, Rythmik L12 sub.
Parasound HCA1500A(indoor sound) and HCA1000(outdoor sound), Dynaco PAS4, Denon DP1200 w/Shure V15 Type V and Jico SAS stylus, Marantz UD7007, Polk L600, Rythmik L12 sub.
Post edited by muncybob on
Comments
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The RDO194 is a good tweeter, the RDO198 is even better.SDA SRS 2.3TL's
Silk Audio MS-90-BT integrated tube amp
Yaqin MS-20L integrated tube amp
SDA 2B TL's -
I'm definatley going to have my crossovers updated. My 2b's have had the RDO 194 tweeters in them for a few years now and initially I was ging to keep them and have the crossovers worked on and install binding posts(along with Larrys rings, JB weld and spikes). I had not really thought about going tl until an interesteding offer involving a tl'd crossover was made to me. So, perhaps I will sell the 194's, pick up the 198's& related crossover and go tl.....but, what makes going tl favorable to just modding the crossovers and sticking with the 194's?
Personally I think the TL mod is a bit overated. The 194's and 198's are very similar tweeters. That said if you can TL it for close to same cost then there really is no down side.
You should easily get 80-85% of what you paid for the 194's and there are only a few extra parts to buy for the x-over. Maybe you'll have an extra $20-30 over what you'd pay for a non-TL version.
I don't see how you could go wrong. If you had to take a larger loss on selling the 194's to replace them with the 198's I'd say probably not worth it, but since that's not the case here.
There are going to be some that chime in and say there is a huge difference, to me adding an extra cap and using the same basic tweeter design and material isn't going to make the TL some kind of ephiphony modification vs. non-TL.
YMMV
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I'm definatley going to have my crossovers updated. My 2b's have had the RDO 194 tweeters in them for a few years now and initially I was ging to keep them and have the crossovers worked on and install binding posts(along with Larrys rings, JB weld and spikes). I had not really thought about going tl until an interesteding offer involving a tl'd crossover was made to me. So, perhaps I will sell the 194's, pick up the 198's& related crossover and go tl.....but, what makes going tl favorable to just modding the crossovers and sticking with the 194's?michaeljhsda2 wrote: »The RDO194 is a good tweeter, the RDO198 is even better.
They are the same tweeter with slightly different electrical properties.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
While RDO194's and RDO198's might be "very similar tweeters" with only "slightly different electrical properties", I strongly disagree that the sound quality improvement is overrated.
You can update the cabinets incrementally (trying the 194's first, and then adding the 5.8uf bypass and 198 at a later date) but in my opinion that's wasting time, money and energy to reach a conclusion many dozens of others have reached: ie. the TL (198) mod is an order of magnitude better.
Don't forget TFL rings, spikes and an SDA interconnect cable upgrade.VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
NAD SS rigs w/mods
GIK panels -
Sounds like someone has tweeter envy.
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
inspiredsports wrote: »The OP could update incrementally, trying the 194' first, and then adding the 5.8uf bypass and 198 at a later date, but in my opinion that's wasting time, money and energy to get to a point dozens of others have reached: ie. the TL mod is an order of magnitude better.
That's why I strongly suggested he just do the TL mod, since it's not a huge amount of extra $$$ or time involved.Sounds like someone has tweeter envy.
Not at all, if I was convinced the 198 was some sort of second coming as some seem to state, I'd be out looking for a pair of SDA's (spending a lot more than I did for my current SDA's) that are currently TL'd or had that option.
I don't doubt for a second there are difference's but some people on here make it sound the 194's are just poo compared to the 198's..........I don't see it since Polk said it's the same tweeter with sightly different electrical properties. Perhaps the 198's and it's electrical properties are a slightly better fit in some circuits than the 194's.
I've never compared them side by side in the same exact speaker at the same exact time. If I were in his shoes, I'd go for the 198's and the TL just because the extra cost and time are so little
In his case it's a no brainer and he can't loose even if there is a slight difference.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
If the OP can't lose, why do the negative comments in post #3 even exist ?? :biggrin:VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
NAD SS rigs w/mods
GIK panels -
inspiredsports wrote: »If the OP can't lose, why do the negative comments in post #3 even exist ?? :biggrin:
The same reason post #5 exists.........nice edits, btw. It's called a discussion.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
The TL mod is a must in my book. I have heard and still own both standard and TL'd 2b's and there is no comparison between the two. The TL mod opens up the sound-stage adds airiness and depth. The originals are an good speakers but the TL mod makes them a great speaker.
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Sorry to interrupt this thread, but I was hoping to learn what is a TL mod? I read about them all the time here yet I still can't figure out what it actually is or does to the speakers.
Monitor 7C's With Tubes -
Well, as usual I wish I could do a side by side comparison. Appreciate the opinions.
So, since tl discussion seems to evolve around the tweeters am I safe in assuming the tl mod would have no difference in mid and low end versus the non tl mod?Yep, my name really is Bob.
Parasound HCA1500A(indoor sound) and HCA1000(outdoor sound), Dynaco PAS4, Denon DP1200 w/Shure V15 Type V and Jico SAS stylus, Marantz UD7007, Polk L600, Rythmik L12 sub. -
Certain crossover circuits allow for the use of the RD0-198 (SL3000 replacement) as opposed to stock use of RDO-194 (SL2000 replacement) if you add a 5.8uF cap into a pre-existing location in the crossover.Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.
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The TL mod makes it possible to use the Ti-Laminate SL3000 tweeter or RD-0198 replacement with a speaker original designed for the SL2000.
It can only be done on certain models of SDA's but is worth the costs involved.
I suggest the mod to people who are looking to update there speakers anyway. -
I've had both tweeters. There was something special about the speakers before any modifications. But now, after months and months of letting all of the mods settle in, now I have a pair of speakers that I will never let go. Perform the TL mod and don't look back!
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audiocr381ve wrote: »I've had both tweeters. There was something special about the speakers before any modifications. But now, after months and months of letting all of the mods settle in, now I have a pair of speakers that I will never let go. Perform the TL mod and don't look back!
Never mind
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Except you never compared the same model with and without the TL mod. You compared different model SDA's with slightly different modifications and you have what.............a couple months experience with SDA's in your entire life? :biggrin: 1/2 that time was without the mods. How much gear did you swap in and out and in and out those months??? Hardly a basis to form any kind of baseline for anyone to take you all that seriously as far as how good the TL 198 vs non-TL 194 is.
I'm just sayin'.....................
H9
Calm down Kimosabe. I'll say it again to get through your thick head, I had 2B's unmodified with RD0-194's, then modified with RD0-198. I strongly prefer the RD0-198's with the mods, and that is all I bring to the table. I never implied more or less so relax, push up your glasses, and run more tests if you wish. That's just not me pal. -
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... I have heard and still own both standard and TL'd 2b's and there is no comparison between the two. The TL mod opens up the sound-stage adds airiness and depth. The originals are an good speakers but the TL mod makes them a great speaker.
Does your original pair have upgraded cross-overs with the same quality of parts as your TL'd pair? If not, you're comparing a lot more than just tweeters, which isn't exactly fair.2-Channel: PC > Schiit Eitr > Audio Research DAC-8 > Audio Research LS-26 > Pass Labs X-250.5 > Magnepan 3.7's
Living Room: PC > Marantz AV-7703 > Emotiva XPA-5 > Sonus Faber Liuto Towers, Sonus Faber Liuto Center, Sonus Faber Liuto Bookshelves > Dual SVS PC12-Pluses
Office: Phone/Tablet > AudioEngine B1 > McIntosh D100 > Bryston 4B-ST > Polk Audio LSiM-703's -
audiocr381ve wrote: »I've had both tweeters. There was something special about the speakers before any modifications. But now, after months and months of letting all of the mods settle in, now I have a pair of speakers that I will never let go. Perform the TL mod and don't look back!
Yea, but you're comparing the 194's with stock crossover components to the 198's with upgraded crossover components, correct?
That's not a fair comparison, and it doesn't help answer the OP's question, IMO. If he was deciding between TL'ing with high quality caps and resistors vs. not doing anything at all, then, of course, TL, but he's going to be upgrading the crossover components regardless.2-Channel: PC > Schiit Eitr > Audio Research DAC-8 > Audio Research LS-26 > Pass Labs X-250.5 > Magnepan 3.7's
Living Room: PC > Marantz AV-7703 > Emotiva XPA-5 > Sonus Faber Liuto Towers, Sonus Faber Liuto Center, Sonus Faber Liuto Bookshelves > Dual SVS PC12-Pluses
Office: Phone/Tablet > AudioEngine B1 > McIntosh D100 > Bryston 4B-ST > Polk Audio LSiM-703's -
audiocr381ve wrote: »I had 2B's unmodified with RD0-194's, then modified with RD0-198. I strongly prefer the RD0-198's with the mods
Like I said apples and kumquats.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
falconcry72 wrote: »Yea, but you're comparing the 194's with stock crossover components to the 198's with upgraded crossover components, correct?
That's not a fair comparison, and it doesn't help answer the OP's question, IMO. If he was deciding between TL'ing with high quality caps and resistors vs. not doing anything at all, then, of course, TL.
Yep, the entire point of my "never mind" post.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
falconcry72 wrote: »Does your original pair have upgraded cross-overs with the same quality of parts as your TL'd pair? If not, you're comparing a lot more than just tweeters, which isn't exactly fair.
The original speakers are upgraded with new caps, resistors and tweeters RD-0194 but no TL upgrade. All of my speakers have the same caps in them (Sonicaps) except the CRS+ I sold they had Clarity Caps.
So it is a fair comparison. This winter the TL mod will be added to the other set. -
falconcry72 wrote: »Yea, but you're comparing the 194's with stock crossover components to the 198's with upgraded crossover components, correct?
That's not a fair comparison, and it doesn't help answer the OP's question, IMO. If he was deciding between TL'ing with high quality caps and resistors vs. not doing anything at all, then, of course, TL.
Correct, that's all I got. Maybe it's helpful maybe it's not, never implied any more or less :rolleyes: -
The original speakers are upgraded with new caps, resistors and tweeters RD-0194 but no TL upgrade. All of my speakers have the same caps in them (Sonicaps) except the CRS+ I sold they had Clarity Caps.
So it is a fair comparison. This winter the TL mod will be added to the other set.
Nice, it's cool to hear the comparison from someone who has heard both tweeters with the same caps and resistors. 2-Channel: PC > Schiit Eitr > Audio Research DAC-8 > Audio Research LS-26 > Pass Labs X-250.5 > Magnepan 3.7's
Living Room: PC > Marantz AV-7703 > Emotiva XPA-5 > Sonus Faber Liuto Towers, Sonus Faber Liuto Center, Sonus Faber Liuto Bookshelves > Dual SVS PC12-Pluses
Office: Phone/Tablet > AudioEngine B1 > McIntosh D100 > Bryston 4B-ST > Polk Audio LSiM-703's -
To the OP, no matter what you do to your speakers you owe it to yourself to update/upgrade the crossovers. It is truly night and day.
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audiocr381ve wrote: »Correct, that's all I got. Maybe it's helpful maybe it's not, never implied any more or less :rolleyes:
I gotcha. I didn't mean to come off as a dick, if I did.:redface:2-Channel: PC > Schiit Eitr > Audio Research DAC-8 > Audio Research LS-26 > Pass Labs X-250.5 > Magnepan 3.7's
Living Room: PC > Marantz AV-7703 > Emotiva XPA-5 > Sonus Faber Liuto Towers, Sonus Faber Liuto Center, Sonus Faber Liuto Bookshelves > Dual SVS PC12-Pluses
Office: Phone/Tablet > AudioEngine B1 > McIntosh D100 > Bryston 4B-ST > Polk Audio LSiM-703's -
audiocr381ve wrote: »Correct, that's all I got. Maybe it's helpful maybe it's not, never implied any more or less :rolleyes:
You original post is extremely vague as you didn't disclose the specifics. I just wanted the OP to know that not everyone is always comparing apples to apples.
The reason I deleted my post is because I'm not arguing against the OP doing the TL mod in this case, so I thought it best to just delete my post.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
You original post is extremely vague as you didn't disclose the specifics. I just wanted the OP to know that not everyone is always comparing apples to apples.
The reason I deleted my post is because I'm not arguing against the OP doing the TL mod in this case, so I thought it best to just delete my post.
H9
Sure :rolleyes: Just adding my experience to the conversation, man. Damn... it may be time for you to take your midol, just sayin...
falcroncry72, nah you didn't bro. Although other members do. -
The only way anyone can have a fair comparison is if you have a set of 2B's that are modded caps/resistors and RDO-194's and another set fully modded for the tl version caps/resistors and RDO-198's.
Anyone comparing a stock set to a fully modded tl set and saying tl is it you must get the RDO-198's and tl them it's the only way to go is ridiculous..
tl is overrated!!! it dosen't need to be tl to be great!!! -
TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »The only way anyone can have a fair comparison is if you have a set of 2B's that are modded caps/resistors and RDO-194's and another set fully modded for the tl version caps/resistors and RDO-198's.
Anyone comparing a stock set to a fully modded tl set and saying tl is it you must get the RDO-198's and tl them it's the only way to go is ridiculous..
tl is overrated!!! it dosen't need to be tl to be great!!!
Don't forget they need to be in the same room with the same gear. If you are constantly swapping gear in and out and not using exactly the same gear to compare then it really means diddly.
Just sayin...................."Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
