To tl SDA 2B or not?

audiocr381ve

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

The only way anyone can have a fair comparison is if you have a set of 2B's that are modded caps/resistors and RDO-194's and another set fully modded for the tl version caps/resistors and RDO-198's.

Anyone comparing a stock set to a fully modded tl set and saying tl is it you must get the RDO-198's and tl them it's the only way to go is ridiculous..

tl is overrated!!! it dosen't need to be tl to be great!!!

HEY! Don't you talk to a paying customer like that!

inspiredsports

heiney9 wrote: »

The same reason post #5 exists.........nice edits, btw. It's called a discussion.

H9

Nothing personal, I was in the middle of reading/editing when you quoted.

It seems to me yours is a minority opinion, but I respect that it's what you've found from your own personal testing.

heiney9

inspiredsports wrote: »

Nothing personal, I was in the middle of reading/editing when you quoted.

It's all good, no worries.

H9

Toolfan66

Ahhhh you guys are internet hugging.. LOL!!

inspiredsports

Yep, H9's opinion has been berry, berry good to me and he's got tons of Polk street cred!

Toolfan66

inspiredsports wrote: »

Yep, H9's opinion has been berry, berry good to me and he's got tons of Polk street cred!

Agreed!!!! but so do you!!!!

I still have my first set of MIT cables that I picked up from you back in the day. ;-)

inspiredsports

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

. . . I still have my first set of MIT cables that I picked up from you back in the day. ;-)

I remember those days. I was MIT overloaded from being gifted many, many sets when I first got back into this hobby. I set aside a pair of those 10' Exp 1's as it was one of the best sets of bargain priced cables I've ever found and I use them all the time on my various rigs.

audiocr381ve

Larry, sent you a PM brotha.

Toolfan66

audiocr381ve wrote: »

Larry, sent you a PM brotha.

Got it and it will ship as soon as I get off work!!

Thanks!!

heiney9

I don't disagree with them being different, I question the veracity of some people's opinions stating they are "X" times better than the 194's w/o the person in question ever explaining their method's.

There are lot's of people who jump on the bandwagon here and just mimick what ever the flavor of the month is without ever really listening. Yet others join and within months are self proclaimed experts. Not that either one of these CPer's are without merit, but in some cases when pressed it's discovered their POV was derived from an apples to oranges comparison.

There are about a dozen or so people on here (Inspired you are one of them) that I think have the ability to take an unbiased and methodical approach to gear, mods, tubes, etc and I more or less trust their findings. I always do my own research, but those dozen or so usually can push me in the right direction.

I still continue to feel the majority of over the top praise given the RD0198-1 vs. the RD0194-1 is not warranted. Nothing more nothing less.

Whatever floats your boat and YMMV

H9

Joe08867

OK let me set my opinion straight. I do not believe the 198 is a million times better than the 194.

I believe the TL mod on the whole is better than the standard crossover. And also why the 2.3TL and 1.2TL are so highly regarded.

I also believe if you are doing the crossovers in your speakers already than it is the perfect time to do the TL mod. Considering a lot of guys do the tweeters when they do there crossovers anyway.

Is the TL that much better. That is subjective. To me it is a vast improvement but that isn't just the tweeter it is also the crossover updates that go along with it.

inspiredsports

I appreciate that!

I don't work smarter, I just work harder; to turn the old adage upside down and backwards :biggrin:.

I'm in my home office with my gear turned on way too many hours each day and I am continually swapping and comparing

heiney9

Joe08867 wrote: »

I believe the TL mod on the whole is better than the standard crossover. And also why the 2.3TL and 1.2TL are so highly regarded .

The problem I have with this train of thought is 1) the sl3000 was leaps and bounds better than the sl2000; I'm afraid that's not the case with the 194 and 198 since they are so similar 2) later model SDA's (TL's) had other improvements outside the tweeter that improved the overall package (the tweeter being the largest most positive change by a lot) so in my mind adding the 198 doesn't equate and all of a sudden make it "highly regarded" simply by adding the 198 vs. 194. And now it's TL model? It's not really aside from the tweeter which is much closer in sound than the sl2000 vs. sl3000

Joe08867 wrote: »

I also believe if you are doing the crossovers in your speakers already than it is the perfect time to do the TL mod. Considering a lot of guys do the tweeters when they do there crossovers anyway.

Absolutely, one has nothing to loose if you do it at the beginning of the modification process. When I have an issue is if someone has spent all the money modifying a non-TL'able SDA and then wants to get rid of that model to buy a model that can be TL'd because everyone swears there is a night and day difference. IMO, not worth it based solely on the TL issue.

H9

Joe08867

H9, I can see your point, yes the SL3000 was a vast improvement over the SL2000 but I still believe the 198 is a big improvement of the 194. I understand the material for the domes is the same but maybe taking away or adding some coil windings is the difference I hear.

The 198 is faster, cleaner and clearer to my ears than the 194. Is it as vast as the sl2000 vs sl3000? No not even close. But therein lies the problem. Maybe you don't hear what I hear. Maybe the music I listen to or the gear I use has a bigger impact on the sound.

The problem with arguing over it is nobody is right or wrong. It's audio gear. It is subjective, it is open to interpretation and hearsay.

heiney9

Joe,

If a person has modded a pair of non-TL'able SDA's with the best parts and obviously the 194's would you recommend he sell them (most likely at a loss to be realistic) and start all over and spend more money in the end just to have a TL'd pair? Now obviously if they are moving from a non-TL'able SDA 2B to a pair of 1.2TL's there is a difference there just in shear size.

But let's say the models are similar, is it really worth it to loose money on a well done pair of SDA's with 194's to start over again with 198's? At this point I'm not sure I could give that recommendation.

H9

vstarkwell

Joe08867 wrote: »

The TL mod makes it possible to use the Ti-Laminate SL3000 tweeter or RD-0198 replacement with a speaker original designed for the SL2000.

It can only be done on certain models of SDA's but is worth the costs involved.

I suggest the mod to people who are looking to update there speakers anyway.

@Joe08867
Thanks for reply and explanation

Joe08867

heiney9 wrote: »

Joe,

If a person has modded a pair of non-TL'able SDA's with the best parts and obviously the 194's would you recommend he sell them (most likely at a loss to be realistic) and start all over and spend more money in the end just to have a TL'd pair? Now obviously if they are moving from a non-TL'able SDA 2B to a pair of 1.2TL's there is a difference there just in shear size.

But let's say the models are similar, is it really worth it to loose money on a well done pair of SDA's with 194's to start over again with 198's? At this point I'm not sure I could give that recommendation.

H9

I agree, if they are already modded I would tell them to save there money.

Joe08867

vstarkwell wrote: »

@Joe08867
Thanks for reply and explanation

You are welcome.

nspindel

I'll say this much. I went from Sonicap 2BTL's with 198's to Sonicap 1C's with 194's. Everything else in the chain stayed the same. The 1C is a better sounding speaker, definitely, top to bottom end. Not by leaps and bounds, but it has a larger presence as a bigger speaker should. Perhaps the fact that there are two tweeters in the 1C's and they don't just play the same signal compensates for what so many say is a better tweeter in the 2BTL's, but I definitely haven't been yearning for that lost RDO-198 sound in the highs since I got my 1C's.

All I can say is that from what Polk told me, they had the SL2000. Then they had the SL3000, which was night and day improvement over SL2000, but was also electrically different, and they put out the TL models with it. Then years later they moved to silk domes, and put out the 194's and 198's as 2000 and 3000 replacements, and the only difference is the number of windings in the coil to create the two different spec'ed tweeters.

heiney9

This goes without saying, but I'm going to say it anyway.

Moving from the sl2000 to the RD0194-1 is a leaps and bounds improvement in every regard. Moving from the sl3000 to the RD0198-1 is an improvement, but much more subtle and harder to differentiate comparatively.

Now draw a reasonable conclusion to this discussion based on the above.

H9

nspindel

This is semantics, but the difference is important. I will not deny the enthusiasts who are saying the 198 sounds better. It may well. But as someone suggested earlier, I think it's likely because of the crossover difference, i.e. the 5.8uF cap. I think all other things being equal, the 198 and the 194 probably sound exactly the same, but having the cap in addition to the different impedance of the 198 (the windings) are responsible for the more pleasing sound.

The reason I'm saying it's semantics is that there's no way to determine if this is correct. The only way to hear the 198 sounding correctly is to have it in an XO that's designed accordingly, and with the cap installed. And the only way to hear the 194 correctly is without the cap. So there's no way to just swap them and determine if they sound the same.

brgman

nspindel wrote: »

This is semantics, but the difference is important. I will not deny the enthusiasts who are saying the 198 sounds better. It may well. But as someone suggested earlier, I think it's likely because of the crossover difference, i.e. the 5.8uF cap. I think all other things being equal, the 198 and the 194 probably sound exactly the same, but having the cap in addition to the different impedance of the 198 (the windings) are responsible for the more pleasing sound.

The reason I'm saying it's semantics is that there's no way to determine if this is correct. The only way to hear the 198 sounding correctly is to have it in an XO that's designed accordingly, and with the cap installed. And the only way to hear the 194 correctly is without the cap. So there's no way to just swap them and determine if they sound the same.

Well said!!

heiney9

And my only general point is I feel some overstate the differences which has caused some people to get rid of really nicely modded non-TL versions with the 194's in pursuit of something that is "nirvana inducing" better with 198's when in fact the differences aren't that large.

Some of these overstated difference have come about because of not comparing apples to apples as Neil stated above.

That is all

H9

evhudsons

I just got done with my tl upgrade as some of you know, and am still in the process of burning them in. I was just as happy with the 194's prior to the crossover upgrade, and am now hearing improvements overall with the 198 tl upgrade, but of course I'm sure most of it is due to the crossover upgrade. I am not here to either buy or sell, just to share information on audio. I never thought about someone selling one sda to get another with the possibility of the tl upgrade. I would agree in that situation that folks should just be happy with the 194 upgrade or no upgrade. In my case, it was just as easy to go for it, and as no one ever said it was worse, many said better to much better, it was a no brainer. If I had to get rid of my speakers to do the tl upgrade, I would stick with the crossover upgrade and 194's.

I just gave my 194's to a friend after talking him into picking up some 1c's. If I thought the Tl was the world saver, I wouldn't have talked him into it, as he can only use the 194's.

My advice should be taken in stride though, as I am new here and far from being an expert in opinion. Either way, life is grand when your difficult choice would be between the tweeters on your sda.