Loudness switch... can I live without it?

steveinaz

The problem with loudness compensation is that it not only boosts 100Hz and 10kHz (most typically) frequencies, it also boosts surrounding frequencies if not designed properly (and most are not). You'd be better off using a parametric eq, as bandwidth can be controlled as well as freq selection and level. Brock is right, if you're finding a need to use loudness--you're fixing a symptom and not the problem.

Think of tone controls (this includes loudness comp) on hi-fi equipment in terms of TV calibration. Either you want your TV to display true to the original source, or you don't. It's your system, if you prefer the coloration that loudness provides--that's cool--but understand it is coloring the original intent.

The biggest advantage to running without any tone control, is linearity of all frequencies; and once you get used to it, you'll find it significantly more accurate. I'm a recovering "treble" addict, so I speak from experience.

deronb1

Who cares? The Bio HD show "Queen, Days of Our Lives" was OUTSTANDING!

mhardy6647

steveinaz wrote: »

Last time I checked, I didn't see a loudness switch on any musical instrument.

I've seen trumpets with mutes, though.
and then there's the "piano", short for "pianoforte" ("quiet-loud").

Just sayin'...

steveinaz

But those are used as part of the original intent, on the master recording---not downstream, and affecting the frequency linearity of all of the other instruments.

DON73

I use balance controls sometimes because my left eye is not as good as my right and I can't see all that I hear without the balance control.:cool:

stuwee

mhardy6647 wrote: »

I see a little silhouetteo of an amp...

:biggrin: :biggrin: Dude, that deserves an Around the world and back SNAP!!! Touche' sir

fbm211

I used to be a treble addict too.... till I got me a monarchy preamp.

Tbone289

quadzilla wrote: »

if the recording sounds like ****, it means the recording sounds like ****. It doesn't mean you should start fiddling knobs trying to make it sound like not-****.

Since you don't have the ability to attempt to make a bad recording sound like not-**** with your setup, do you just not listen to the recording, or do you listen to it as it was made?

Joe08867

I get a better recording of it if possible or don't listen to it. Bad recordings hurt my brain.

mhardy6647

There are loudspeakers that'll smooth off the rough edges of bad recordings (the vintage ads/Braun speakers come to mind, as does the wonderful Quad ESL-57 electrostatic).

Conversely, there are loudspeakers that are utterly unforgiving of poor quality source material (notably the Lowther twincone full-range, high-sensitivity drivers and the Klipsch "Heritage" loudspeaker line - Heresy, Cornwall, LaScala, Belle, and Klipschorn).

Joe08867

Horns is General are usually unforgiving of a bad recording. Probably why I like them so much. I do miss my Klipschorns.

steveinaz

..as are most metal dome tweeters.

wingzam

Boy,I really like my loudness switch.Without it,it would be like drinking warm coffee.
Like eating dinner without a glass of wine.
Like using a worn out screwdriver..
Like wearing shoes without socks!
Like eating sugar free chocolate!!
Like smoking an ultra-light cigarette...
Like sex without Viagra!!!!

Give up my loudness switch??NEVER!

Tbone289

I've had loudness switches in the past, but never used them, mainly because I didn't feel like they were well-implemented in the equipment I've had. When tempted to use loudness, I usually just turn up the gain a bit.

stuwee

90% of loudness switchs are crap, the other 10% are Yamaha loudness contour controls or SAE parametric preamps which aren't crap.

Every once and awhile a little boost or cut is called for, there are no perfect recordings for every system in every room. I need tone controls!

George Grand

deronb1 wrote: »

Who cares? The Bio HD show "Queen, Days of Our Lives" was OUTSTANDING!

"Queen for a Day" ruled.

If you like it with the loudness switch on better than off, I would leave it on.

I am not into the loudness control but I do like to watch.

FTGV

steveinaz wrote: »

..as are most metal dome tweeters.

Certainly not this one. http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Itemid=114

mhardy6647

Joe08867 wrote: »

Horns is General are usually unforgiving of a bad recording. Probably why I like them so much. I do miss my Klipschorns.

My experience with Altec horns -- especially the large format, multicellular horns -- and even the small sectoral horns on my current 604E Duplexes is that they're much better behaved than any of the vintage Klipsch (MR) horns. Bruce Edgar's horns are pretty well-behaved as well. The Klipsch horns are, IMO, particularly piercing and have a tendency to sound like what people who don't think they like horns think that horns sound like. I say this as a Cornwall owner/user for almost exactly one decade ('til a pair of Valencias came to live at my house).

quadzilla

Tbone289 wrote: »

Since you don't have the ability to attempt to make a bad recording sound like not-**** with your setup, do you just not listen to the recording, or do you listen to it as it was made?

I've had tone and loudness controls before, which is largely why I don't now. Recordings that sound like **** just sound like ****-plus after you fiddle the knobs.

As to whether I listen or not depends on how much I like the music. I've got some horrible sounding Duke Ellington live sets from the 30s that I can't get enough of.

Mon40CSMM10

Loudness more often than not ends up making the bass instruments muddy sounding and the bass drums get too boomy. Then it doesn't matter that the treble was also boosted, the overall musical quality just got degraded.

Tone controls can help IF the receiver is running only Stereo AND the tone controls allow fine adjustment.

For example, the analog dials on my Technics receiver allow for fine adjustment, they are analog potentiometers. However, the digital tone controls on my Pioneer AVR only allow -6, -4, -2, 0 ,+2, +4, +6 selections and therefore do not allow for fine adjustment. The Pioneer AVR also locks out the tone controls in Direct Mode, any of the Pro Logic II modes, and any of the receiver-specific Advanced Surround modes.

I also think that Pro Logic II Music mode is kind of like a tradeoff between no loudness and using loudness. It does seem to boost the bass a bit while also cutting some treble (when compared/contrasted with Direct mode). The setting of the Center Width parameter also makes a difference--0 is Center channel only and 7 is no Center chanel presence, but I tend to prefer a Center Width setting of 6.

m1aman

Well, after a lot of listening, it seems I can live without my loudness switch but I don't see myself ever letting go of my tone controls. Guess I will never be an audiophile.

gdb

m1aman wrote: »

Well, after a lot of listening, it seems I can live without my loudness switch but I don't see myself ever letting go of my tone controls. Guess I will never be an audiophile.

Yeah, you will, just not one of the closed minded, know it all about everything variety! Congrats

leftwinger57

I have no answer for you but I do have something a little similar toy your loudness button. On my Onkyo P301-pre there is a switch that says simulated stereo. Truth be told the time I tried it there was a volume boost. I'm not shure because I have no mono recordings of anything so I do not know if we're talking about the same thing on 2 different devices....lw

gdb

leftwinger57 wrote: »

I have no answer for you but I do have something a little similar toy your loudness button. On my Onkyo P301-pre there is a switch that says simulated stereo. Truth be told the time I tried it there was a volume boost. I'm not shure because I have no mono recordings of anything so I do not know if we're talking about the same thing on 2 different devices....lw

I've got that button on an OLD* Pioneer AVR, I think that it's the only way to disable all the surround effects and just play 2ch. material through only 2 speakers. *(so old it has a Laserdisc button !!:eek::biggrin:)

comfortablycurt

steveinaz wrote: »

Last time I checked, I didn't see a loudness switch on any musical instrument.

Actually a lot of guitar and bass amps have controls that will boost or cut certain frequency ranges...generally the same frequency ranges that a loudness button would boost.

I've got an old Fisher receiver with a loudness control driving my Monitor 7's out in my garage. I find the loudness control to be very useful in helping to fill my relatively large garage up at lower volumes. It helps to fill the bass and midrange in quite a bit.

Don't worry, some people just like to live under the illusion that everyone who disagrees with them is wrong...and many of them think that there is only ONE SINGLE way to enjoy listening to music on a home audio system. These people apparently have nothing better to do with their time, so they have to try and make you feel as if your method of musical enjoyment is inadequate.

BlueFox

comfortablycurt wrote: »

Actually a lot of guitar and bass amps have controls that will boost or cut certain frequency ranges...generally the same frequency ranges that a loudness button would boost.

I've got an old Fisher receiver with a loudness control driving my Monitor 7's out in my garage. I find the loudness control to be very useful in helping to fill my relatively large garage up at lower volumes. It helps to fill the bass and midrange in quite a bit.

Don't worry, some people just like to live under the illusion that everyone who disagrees with them is wrong...and many of them think that there is only ONE SINGLE way to enjoy listening to music on a home audio system. These people apparently have nothing better to do with their time, so they have to try and make you feel as if your method of musical enjoyment is inadequate.

Curt, well said.

Not to hijack the thread, but how are you? Is the recovery from that horrific wreak going okay?

gdb

Living on reds,vitamin C and cocaine??:biggrin:

Joe08867

mhardy6647 wrote: »

My experience with Altec horns -- especially the large format, multicellular horns -- and even the small sectoral horns on my current 604E Duplexes is that they're much better behaved than any of the vintage Klipsch (MR) horns. Bruce Edgar's horns are pretty well-behaved as well. The Klipsch horns are, IMO, particularly piercing and have a tendency to sound like what people who don't think they like horns think that horns sound like. I say this as a Cornwall owner/user for almost exactly one decade ('til a pair of Valencias came to live at my house).

That is a good point. Having heard Altec's in the past I agree totally with you assessment. I will say one thing for certain with horns that i have seen is Placement issues and room acoustics can kill otherwise good sounding speakers. Klipsch are tough speakers that I will only use again in a low watt tube setting. I only had 15 watts running my Klipschorn's way back and honestly I would love to get that sound again. But really driving horns into the realm of party loud is a no no in my book. I have not had the opportunity to hear Bruce Edgar's stuff. I will have to do some research and check them out.

comfortablycurt

BlueFox wrote: »

Curt, well said.

Not to hijack the thread, but how are you? Is the recovery from that horrific wreak going okay?

I'm doing very well. I've basically recovered from it 100%. I'm still having some occasional issues with short term memory...but essentially all of my memory returned over time. I've been out of my casts for a few months now, and all of my bones healed quite nicely. The doctors said that they couldn't have healed anymore perfectly. I've been doing a lot of mountain biking lately actually, if that's any kind of testament to my recovery. It took a while for me to get my muscle mass built back up after being essentially immobile for so long, but I'm more or less back to where I was before the accident. I've been kind of struggling with some personal problems and some depression that stemmed as a result of it, but mountain biking has honestly been my greatest source of therapy as far as that goes. When I'm flying down a trail with the wind whipping across my face, all of my cares melt away.

gdb wrote: »

Living on reds,vitamin C and cocaine??:biggrin:

lol...Something along those lines. No cocaine, but I was on some pretty serious pain killers for quite a while.

sda2mike

if it's in a quiet spot - say the bedroom - the loudness switch makes sense..