Another thought...Sub's yes here.

24

Comments

  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited September 2003
    "Half-way up is never needed for music, but is needed for various films. Sum of All Fears had its way with the 9's.

    The 35 wpc is more then enough power for me, especially in this room. I am simply past tired of accustations or suggestions of clipping due to high volumes."

    And yes, you do mention the HK, but didn't mention any problems while using it. The post started after you hooked up the Rotel.

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,638
    edited September 2003
    hmmmm....I currently am sending 350wpc through my LSi9's and have really been putting them through the paces and the 9's have handled it just fine. I haven't heard them bottom out once.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • VR3VR3 Posts: 23,377
    edited September 2003
    I run my speakers at 75% (digitally) -- this is MAX for them, basically -- the amps are not distorting, and I can NOT detect any distortion, and the speakers do not sound strained. Today in the digital world, this is no more *half way* -- then it negatives and percents. Half way on my receiver is -50, and that is only like 60db.....

    Sean what Rig are you trying to build?

    Russ, what does it matter what he blew it on?

    Sean, thats rather funny. Is the Rotel 35 watts into 8 ohms? If so, I find the RTi's alone need atleast 60 watts of real power (to my experience, could vary between amps). I noticed I need a bigger amp, or possibly a second amp with the RTi70, but I don't have the cash flow....

    Polk's are VERY ineffecient.....if I have noticed anything at all about them....
    - Not Tom

    Vr3Mods.com ///// Version3Audio.com

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited September 2003
    Sid,

    It would help if you READ the (entire) post before commenting. He said his LSi9's couldn't handle the load, I beg to differ that he was simply clipping. See any relevence now?

    Polks are inefficient? Since when? Almost every Polk EVER made has been 90db 1w/1m and up.

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • organorgan Posts: 5,022
    edited September 2003
    Sid,
    The only inefficient speakers from Polk is the LSi line. The RTi are very efficient. The LSi at 4-Ohms nominal and 88db/w/m will need about double the power of the RTi line. You don't need a minimum of 60w/ch to make them sing. I moved from a 120w/ch NAD to a 35w/ch Dynakit and don't feel the need to add more power.

    Maurice
    CD Player: Original CD-A8T
    Receiver: Harman/Kardon HK3390
    Speakers: Polk Audio RT1000p
    "I would rather have a cup of tone than an ocean of power" **Dr. Harvey Rosenberg**
  • Tour2maTour2ma Old School Posts: 10,176
    edited September 2003
    Originally posted by organ
    The only inefficient speakers from Polk is the LSi line. The RTi are very efficient. The LSi at 4-Ohms nominal and 88db/w/m will need about double the power of the RTi line.
    And you are saying that is not a recipe for clipping???
    You don't need a minimum of 60w/ch to make them sing. I moved from a 120w/ch NAD to a 35w/ch Dynakit and don't feel the need to add more power.
    Sand amp vs. Tube... apples and oranges... The Dynaco likely has more dynamic power than the NAD.
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
  • Frank ZFrank Z Polk-a-dweeb Posts: 5,967
    edited September 2003
    Gawd Damnit organ! My wife reads the same posts I do! Now how in the hell am I gonna convince her that I need a new Sunfire 7 channel amp that cranks out 800wpc x 7 into 4 ohms!! Thanks alot!!;)
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
  • VR3VR3 Posts: 23,377
    edited September 2003
    Originally posted by ATCVenom
    For musical applications in a bedroom, this thing has some balls. The only speaker it has had trouble powering was ironically, the RTi's. Nothing but respect for this little integrated.

    Russ,

    Before you post, read the whole thread.....
    - Not Tom

    Vr3Mods.com ///// Version3Audio.com

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • organorgan Posts: 5,022
    edited September 2003
    Tour,
    Sid said that "Polk speakers are VERY inefficient" and the RTi line "needs at least 60w of power". I'm assuming he meant that the RTi and LSi are very inefficient. The RTi are inefficient when compared to horns though. I just don't agree with the minimum of 60w for the RTi line.
    Good point about the amps. Didn't realy think abot that before I posted.

    Frank,
    Sorry man:). Just tell her about the tube vs transistor power that Tour pointed out;).

    Maurice
    CD Player: Original CD-A8T
    Receiver: Harman/Kardon HK3390
    Speakers: Polk Audio RT1000p
    "I would rather have a cup of tone than an ocean of power" **Dr. Harvey Rosenberg**
  • Tour2maTour2ma Old School Posts: 10,176
    edited September 2003
    Got ya organ... I was putting your post more in the context of ATC's reply above yours...
    Originally posted by Frank Z
    Gawd Damnit organ! My wife reads the same posts I do! Now how in the hell am I gonna convince her that I need a new Sunfire 7 channel amp that cranks out 800wpc x 7 into 4 ohms!! Thanks alot!!;)
    Well you don't... What you need are two 5-ch Sig Cin Grands or 10 x 800 wpc... just about the same price if you are open to used equipment... :D
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
  • VR3VR3 Posts: 23,377
    edited September 2003
    10x800?????????

    Holy......
    - Not Tom

    Vr3Mods.com ///// Version3Audio.com

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • Tour2maTour2ma Old School Posts: 10,176
    edited September 2003
    ... sheet??? :D

    And with 10 ch's you can bi-amp the mains and still have two left over for a second zone...
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
  • Loud &amp; ClearLoud &amp; Clear Posts: 1,538
    edited September 2003
    Originally posted by TroyD


    I still say, gimmie a speaker that will hit 30hz and an amp that will drive it with some authority and you'll have a tough time beating it with a sub/sat affair.

    BDT

    I feel similarly.

    Two Channel Setup:

    Speakers: Wharfedale Opus 2-3
    Integrated Amp: Krell S-300i
    DAC: Arcam irDac
    Source: iMac
    Remote Control: iPad Mini

    3.2 Home Theater Setup:

    Fronts: Klipsch RP-160M
    Center: Klipsch RP-160M
    Subwoofer: SVS PB12NSD (X 2)
    AVR: Yamaha Aventage RX-A2030
    Blu Ray: Sony BDP-S790
    TV Source: DirecTV Genie
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,378
    edited September 2003
    ATC,
    for some reason or another FrankZ has it out for me.Matters not really his Info about the Lsi's is incorrect.The correct info is they play solid down to 32hz.After that they fall off.You miss the entire signal after 25hz.They simply has no output there.

    I have no Idea why my opnions need to be LAW........what the hell is that about????I feel the Lsi15's need a sub.I listen to Jazz,Classical,Light Rock,Celtic,and many others.Low bass is low bass.If you cannot reproduce it,then you simply aren't hearing/feeling the entire recording.Simple.

    Most guys around here run at the mouth but do little or no testing.Have no experience and sound like Idiots.Thats fine.

    Why every single thead as to go in a war one way or another is behond me.Whats so hard with leaving an opnion and leaving it at that......but no most asses around here have to make it some kind of **** point.

    Bottom line above all else.........I think we need to step back a bit from this anger thing,hate thing,revenge thing or what ever it is.

    I'm into audio not ****
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • dorokusaidorokusai Posts: 25,436
    edited September 2003
    I can't comment on the LSi series since it has had a limited impact on me, but I havn't heard a speaker to date that would not benefit from a subwoofer. That is simply personal, and may be because I prefer some higher level of bass reproduction, than the purist. I get the gist of what you are saying Mantis.
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,378
    edited September 2003
    dorokusai,
    maybe for better things to come
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • VR3VR3 Posts: 23,377
    edited September 2003
    The only speaker I have heard that does not need a subwoofer for music is the Wilson Audio X-1. It needs one for movies, but for music.....

    Let me put it this way....

    Its kinda like your clothes went off and left you....
    - Not Tom

    Vr3Mods.com ///// Version3Audio.com

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • Frank ZFrank Z Polk-a-dweeb Posts: 5,967
    edited September 2003
    Originally posted by mantis
    As a owner of the Lsi15's they very much do need a sub for music.A good powered sub will set the foundation for your music.Without going into the 20's and lowers,in my opnion you just lose the inpact and weight of some passes.

    Sounds like more mantis BS, your comment comes across as the way it just has to be, mantis has spoken, all others are wrong!
    Matters not really his Info about the Lsi's is incorrect.

    Hey numb nuts get your read on! Overall frequency response IS 22hz-27.

    http://www.polkaudio.com/home/specs.php?category=25&speaker=165

    You re-writting the spec's for Polk now? 32hz? Must hurt like hell when you reached around and pulled that magic number outta your ****!

    Check your Zen Whoopie history book you dipstick, you brought all the hate and discontent down on yourself with your lame assed comments and that totally undeserved over inflated ego of yours. You are by no means an expert on anything other than spouting virtually unreadable ****.

    You are now, always have been, and always will be nothing more than a box cutter!

    Wet clean up in Aisle 3...schmantis...go clean it up after your done stocking the tampons!
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
  • Tour2maTour2ma Old School Posts: 10,176
    edited September 2003
    Originally posted by F1nut
    What's this Jes stuff??? You and Tour......it's Jesse. :D
    We were planning on calling you "se" later a bunch of times... :D
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
  • Tour2maTour2ma Old School Posts: 10,176
    edited September 2003
    Oops sorry, I was still trying to have some fun here. Hadn't realized this thread had degenerated into a pissing contest...

    Dan,
    You opened the thread with a good question that stimulated a great deal of good discussion. Take it as that. If your mind was already made up from the get-go, it's no never mind to me, but it irritates some.

    The discussion never truly degenerated into anything derrogatory until you started brandishing the "idiots" and "****" card above.

    And you know what thedeal is between you and Frank... a couple of effin chairs... Both of you should get over that.

    And you both should learn how to read spec's. The 15's are - 3dB at 30 Hz, not 32 and not 22. The overall lower limit of 22 doesn't mean squat, except that the bass has completed its checkout...

    Frank,
    Phrasing aside, raising the point of considering "lesser" mains when the intentions of using a sub for 2 ch is a legitimate point and needed to be included in the discussion. The sub/ no-sub choice should be a factor in all non-source choices in planning a rig, if budget is a consideration.

    Sorry to see that you had to react and reply.


    It's in the ears folks... to each his own...
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
  • Dr. SpecDr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited September 2003
    Typically speakers are rated in an anechoic or quasi anechoic chamber. This will not provide boundary reinforcement, often referred to as "room gain".

    A rating of -3dB at 30 Hz will usually translate into flat (0 dB) at 30 Hz in-room, as room gain typically provides a 3-4 Hz extension over anechoic.

    Again, being a vented speaker, the 15's will probably trail off rapidly below their tune point, and Dan's experience of them largely signing off by 25 Hz is probably valid. Although I don't know if he has actually run a sweep on them in-room (not hard to do). I've done it on my 800's and I know they sign off around 38 Hz, being several dB down at that point.

    And remember, there is no standard for the volume at which a speaker is tested for FR anechoically. An unscrupulous manufacturer (not saying Polk is) will often run the sweep at 70 dB and the deep extension will look far more favorable than it does at a real world music volume of say 90-95 dB.

    The best way to determine the actual in-room extension of the 15's is to run a corrected sweep on them at say 95 dB at the listening position and see exactly how they perform.

    Doc
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen ([email protected])
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,378
    edited September 2003
    Frank Z,
    Sounds like more mantis BS, your comment comes across as the way it just has to be, mantis has spoken, all others are wrong!
    I think you read what you wanna hear.......
    in my opnion you just lose the inpact and weight of some passes.
    Re read the last line of what I said.....OPNION is there man.I don't know why when I speak in here,you have to assume that my words are the be all end all........there's no reason for what you say Frank.Whatever your problem is with me,I'll be more then happy to talk to you about it on your terms.I have AOL IM so if you wanna talk to me and get whatever this THING you have for me in the past..........name your time.
    Hey numb nuts get your read on! Overall frequency response IS 22hz-27.
    Does your Lsi15's go to 22??Mine don't.I have tested them and they don't have any output there.This is why I say spec's are spec's and real world is the real world.If you run a sweep on your 15's,you will see what I'm talking about.Knowing the path and walking the path are 2 different things my friend.

    I also think it's sad we have to have this tention between us,we share alot of the same gear and to tell you the truth,I think your theater is really nice.The whole couch thing..........well I just thought it was funny.Your theater seating is really nice.By the way you can make rows with your chairs.There are add on's you can buy straight or curved for a row look.If your into it anyway.Salamander is really putting awesome products on the market,they have for years.There new line of seating is awesome.Check it out when you get time.

    Last words bud ,lets end this ok,I enjoy posting.........I do do you?
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,638
    edited September 2003
    The discussion never truly degenerated into anything derrogatory until you started brandishing the "idiots" and "****" card above.

    Agreed, I think it was a pretty good discussion until that point.

    Most guys around here run at the mouth but do little or no testing.Have no experience and sound like Idiots.Thats fine.

    Gee Dan, whoever might you be refering to? Last time I looked, I and a few others had quite a bit of gear to test our opinions out on.
    Why every single thead as to go in a war one way or another is behond me.Whats so hard with leaving an opnion and leaving it at that......but no most asses around here have to make it some kind of **** point.

    Dan, again, it takes two to have an argument. Of late, I've tried to ignore you but I feel compelled to point this out. You just seem to have a knack for taking things WAY to personally.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,638
    edited September 2003
    Ok, back to the original discussion.

    Really though, how much info is there below 30hz on most recordings??? What are you REALLY missing from the 20-30hz region?

    Also, I asked this before, for those using subs (again, SVS dudes aside) how low do you think they really go?

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • gidrahgidrah Posts: 3,031
    edited September 2003
    Originally posted by TroyD
    Having said that, it depends on your tastes. For me, give me a speaker that plays into the mid 40's and I'm perfectly happy.
    BDT

    I couldn't agree more. As long as those lower octaves are well produced. I've heard speakers that can go mighty low that could still benefit from a sub. I've also heard (and own) speakers that "on paper" could better benefit from a sub, but I don't think it's necessary. Maybe someday I'll add a sub to them, but that'll have to be one hell of a sub. Not only to make it worthwhile, but also to not actually detract from the overall sound, just to make the bottom octaves that I seldom need for my musical tastes.
    Make it Funky! :)
  • Dr. SpecDr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited September 2003
    Originally posted by TroyD
    Really though, how much info is there below 30hz on most recordings??? What are you REALLY missing from the 20-30hz region?

    Overall - music containing bass below 30 Hz is the exception rather than the rule - but it does exist.

    Some classical stuff digs pretty low. Some huge kettle drums are tuned to 26-28 Hz for example. The pipe organ obviously qualifies, but Mahler's Symphony #2 finale also has some good stuff in the 20-30 Hz region.

    The truly deep bass present in today's music is largely synthesized or is a special effect. The amount of time a music disc spends in the 20-30 Hz region can probably be measured in seconds, but when it is properly reproduced, it's impressive.

    My Advents (New Large circa '78-'79) for example are flat to about 30 Hz in room and they ignore much of the really deep stuff in Chapter 13 of the Gladiator soundtrack.

    Also from the SVS website:

    NIN "Closer" very strong at 25 Hz.

    Ditto for Notorious BIG "Dead Wrong".

    City Of Angels soundtrack - huge 28 Hz hit.

    Blue Man Group - DVD-A is famous for a bunch of stuff in the 25 Hz region.

    Metallica - Cunning Stunts "Enter Sandman" cannon shot is big from 20-30 Hz, ditto for the gunfire from "one". Although a cannon shot and gunfire could be construed as a special effect rather than true music, it is there nonetheless.

    There are other examples, but you get the idea.

    It's all a matter of priorities and how much you want to spend for really good bass. Will the LSi15 benefit from a true quality subwoofer? Sure. Do they deserately need one? Probably not in most people's opinion. This is a good example of the law of diminishing returns.

    If you want to hear it "all" for those music CDs that truly contain it, you really do need a sub that truly does dig flat to 20 Hz or lower, as many of the "subs" on the market (like Troy says) don't dig any lower than the 15's and some of them don't even dig that low.

    Doc
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen ([email protected])
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,638
    edited September 2003
    As usual....Well put Doc. Well put.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • burdetteburdette Posts: 1,205
    edited September 2003
    Someone said it.. I think it does have a lot to do with what you're used to. We used Monitor 5jr+ as mains for music for a long time, and they sounded great.. didn't slam you, but very pleasing and "full" sounding. Until, that is, I was able to again set up the Monitor 7Cs, and realized there was some bottom end I was missing. The 5s still sounded good, but after the comparision, my mind "knew" something was missing, so I heard it more clearly.. or didn't hear it, I guess. So the 7s sounded great.. until I added the sub and realized that there was a little MORE information down there for music that I'd been missing. Didn't consciously THINK about it before and have never EVER thought the 7s were missing anything (which is why I've kept them as my 'best' speakers for so long).

    However, the added benefit of using the sub for 2-channel is that it relieved the mains from duty below 80Hz (I think my 7s are 3db down at 40Hz). That really cleared the way for the 6.5incher to be tighter and cleaner through the rest of its region.
    HT: Denon 1910, LG blu-ray, Def Tech ProCinema 100s, Stryke 12" sonosub.
    LR: Onkyo TX-84 (original owner), Aiwa AD-F850 (original owner), Philips TT (old school, 2nd owner), Philips CD (cheap-o), Monitor 5jr+ (original owner - actually, my wife is the original owner; she bought them new when we were dating - sealed the deal).
    Xbox 360/Wii/Kids: Old school huge Sony HD TV, Sherwood RD-6500, Philips DVD, pair Def Tech ProCinema 100.
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited September 2003
    I think you should hear/feel the full range of whatever material you play. If that requires a sub to enjoy the piece as the artist intended then a sub is necessary. If you decide to give up this range because your mains will not handle it and don't want to correct the situation that is fine but others may have a different opinion as to whether they are willing to give up that part of the experience.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,638
    edited September 2003
    I'll agree with mm's point to an extent but here is where I say quality over quantity. Here is where I would actually pull a page out of one of Dan's brochures and say that the key lies in matching. I feel that matching up your mains so that it blends well is a daunting task. Not saying that it CAN'T be done, just that it would be a bit more difficult and as someone else pointed out, the whole cost/benefit factor comes in to play.

    If I were to compare let's say my CA's, DQ-10's and LSi7's.....the thing that would make me prefer one over the other is NOT the bass response (or lack thereof) of each.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
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