Another thought...Sub's yes here.

mantismantis Posts: 15,379
edited September 2003 in 2 Channel Audio
Sub's

How many of you use em in your 2 channel rig?Even the big boys with the big floor speakers?

Another thing going around and round is the need for a clean low 20hz and behond sub to add to a 2 channel system.

Now thinking about this and listening with and without,I can't see even the baddest speakers not benefiting from a killer low end sub.Real.

As I hear it the sub sets the foundation for the music and the rest is up to the speakers to recreate the rest.

Dan
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
Post edited by mantis on
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Comments

  • organorgan Posts: 5,022
    edited September 2003
    I think even a 2ch system sounds better with a sub. That reminds me, I need to get some Y-adaptor for the pre. I haven't used my sub for almost 2 months.

    Maurice
    CD Player: Original CD-A8T
    Receiver: Harman/Kardon HK3390
    Speakers: Polk Audio RT1000p
    "I would rather have a cup of tone than an ocean of power" **Dr. Harvey Rosenberg**
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited September 2003
    When I listen with a sub I think a sub is required. When I listen without a sub it takes awhile but then it seems as if the speakers open up somehow and a sub is not needed. I think you get used to whatever the freq curve is and then it becomes your reference.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,638
    edited September 2003
    The Amazings are rated at 17hz -3db. No need for a sub here.

    Having said that, it depends on your tastes. For me, give me a speaker that plays into the mid 40's and I'm perfectly happy. I personally wouldn't put a powered sub in a 2ch rig, I'd give some credence to a passive sub with a crossover ala the DQ-10/DQ1W woofer module combination.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited September 2003
    In the SDA SRS 2ch rig, no sub, not needed.

    In the DQ10 rig, no sub, would consider a passive DQ1 sub, or the likes of VMPS.

    In the Advent Legacy rig, no sub, not needed.

    In the case of the stacked Infinity QB's, no sub, not needed.

    In the Norh 3.0 rig, B&W ASW500, has a nice, fixed passive high pass right at the Norh's resonant freq, and does well with music.

    In both 'main' zones of the house (RT7, AR206) I use DCM 710's with on board B&K amps (8" active, 12" pr) to add a little more 'slam' factor. Not much critical listening with the whole house rig - moreso to get the ladies rumps moving.

    I say go for it, if you like it - use it. From a 'purist' standpoint, they might let a passive slide, but not a powered. If you need more low end, some would say get bigger speakers.

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • organorgan Posts: 5,022
    edited September 2003
    WTF? How many man caves do you have there Russ? How do those Norh sound compared to the LSi?

    Maurice
    CD Player: Original CD-A8T
    Receiver: Harman/Kardon HK3390
    Speakers: Polk Audio RT1000p
    "I would rather have a cup of tone than an ocean of power" **Dr. Harvey Rosenberg**
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited September 2003
    Originally posted by organ
    WTF? How many man caves do you have there Russ? How do those Norh sound compared to the LSi?

    Maurice

    Does a man cave have to be in the basement??
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited September 2003
    My house is turning into one big cave, although I do still have my own little room to go hide in. Chuck, my official 'cave' is simply the 4th bedroom in the house. 1 master, 1 office, 1 guest room, 1 cave.

    Can't really compare the 3.0's with LSi. They are excellent, near-field speakers. Using a single full-range driver, they can't handle gobs of power either. Vocals and strings are simply amazing, and the imaging is incredible with such small speakers (after proper setup). The sweet spot is exactly that, a sweet SPOT - they aren't speakers to listen to while 'walking around the house'.

    Now the higher end Norh's, there is really only one word, Scanspeak. You need to hear them, if you ever get a chance.

    To add to the post topic, on the small(er) speakers I've bought, lets say the KEF Cresta 2's, I bought them because I liked the way they sounded. I didn't buy them with the thought of adding a sub later, and wouldn't. Does that make sense? I enjoy listening to them for what they are, and what they do.

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • organorgan Posts: 5,022
    edited September 2003
    Oh, I thought you have the Norh with ring radiator tweets. I've never heard speakers with a single full range driver. I do like the looks of Norh speakers though. Very unique. A lot of people at audioreview.com owns Norh and love them.

    My friend picked up the Cresta 2 about a month ago and is really diging them. He's powering them with an old H/K receiver(pro-logic). I should go to his place one day and check out the speakers.

    Maurice
    CD Player: Original CD-A8T
    Receiver: Harman/Kardon HK3390
    Speakers: Polk Audio RT1000p
    "I would rather have a cup of tone than an ocean of power" **Dr. Harvey Rosenberg**
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 42,495
    edited September 2003
    SDA 2.3TL's hit 12Hz -3dB, no sub needed.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited September 2003
    Isn't that the 'overall' rating Jes - 10db down?

    Not that it matters. ;)

    Actually, Im 'ok' with the ring radiator, there are other higher end from Vifa/Scanspeak that please me much, much more.

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 42,495
    edited September 2003
    Yes, you're right, I goofed, it's.........

    Overall 12 Hz to 26kHz

    -3 dB 30Hz to 20kHz

    What's this Jes stuff??? You and Tour......it's Jesse. :D
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited September 2003
    ATC,
    Look towards an Audio Control Ricter scale. It's not perfect but it does have a nice crossover fitting of a high quality audio system. It will not introduce noticeable noise to your signal but will divide up the frequencies while letting you eq the bass section while leaving the higher stuff alone. A great compromise.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited September 2003
    Why on earth would you not want to send a full range signal to LSi15's? Sounds like you should have kept the 9's, if you plan on limiting them.

    I've heard the 15's in some avg sized rooms, and I would consider them every bit full range for music, regardless of what the paperwork says.

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited September 2003
    On a one to one comparison with the 1.2's, they drop out WAY before the lowest notes. I have a collection of CD's that show this. Things I normally listen for are there, you just have to really listen for them because for sure, you will not feel them.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited September 2003
    I read you loud and clear Chuck, perhaps it didn't read quite right, they can certainly *handle* the FR (unclipped) signal.

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • Frank ZFrank Z Polk-a-dweeb Posts: 5,967
    edited September 2003
    Originally posted by RuSsMaN
    Why on earth would you not want to send a full range signal to LSi15's? Sounds like you should have kept the 9's, if you plan on limiting them.

    I've heard the 15's in some avg sized rooms, and I would consider them every bit full range for music, regardless of what the paperwork says.

    Cheers,
    Russ

    Agreed, the 15's do not need a sub for 2 channel music. I have my Preamp set up to send everything to the 15's for 2 channel listening. No need for a sub at all with 15's or any full range speaker for that matter. If you can't get adequate bass out of your 2 channel rig, well let's just say you have another reason to upgrade!:D
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
  • Tour2maTour2ma Old School Posts: 10,176
    edited September 2003
    Everyone's talking speakers, but there's the music and the power and the room to consider...

    Great bass from mains, any mains requires power. Want to really hear a great church organ strut it's stuff? Got a 3000 cu ft "man cave" to fill?

    It's the same as in HT, adding a sub can dig deeper, unburdon the mains' amp and fill the room, if, as pointed out above, the pre can supply the bass management.
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,379
    edited September 2003
    As a owner of the Lsi15's they very much do need a sub for music.A good powered sub will set the foundation for your music.Without going into the 20's and lowers,in my opnion you just lose the inpact and weight of some passes.

    I believe a sub is nessary unless you have true full range speakers.20hz is where it's at.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • Frank ZFrank Z Polk-a-dweeb Posts: 5,967
    edited September 2003
    Then why did you waste your money on the 15's?!? You should have saved your money and bought the 9's instead. 15's go down to 22hz, thats plenty low enough for anyone, hell most people don't even have the ability to hear anything that low! Subs for low frequencies in a multichannel environment if you are not using full range speakers all the way around, sure. A sub to handle the the LFE signal in an HT that is not equiped with full range speakers, sure. But for anyone that has ears that function normally, no.
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited September 2003
    Jeez, someone needs a fresh tampon. :o
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • organorgan Posts: 5,022
    edited September 2003
    madmax,
    You might want to ask Russman that question. I believe he started the man cave thing:).

    Maurice
    CD Player: Original CD-A8T
    Receiver: Harman/Kardon HK3390
    Speakers: Polk Audio RT1000p
    "I would rather have a cup of tone than an ocean of power" **Dr. Harvey Rosenberg**
  • Dr. SpecDr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited September 2003
    My RT800i's are good for an honest 42 Hz in room. They cannot do complete justice to low E (about 40 Hz) on a bass guitar, and are several dB down by 38 Hz. Clearly not a full range speaker.

    I play all music through my 2900 via the analog outputs, bypassing the 3803 except for the amp stage. I use the digital bass management in the 2900 which has a fixed 80 Hz xo and 12/24 hi/low filters. The 2900 has test tones and I have the PB2+ calibrated nearly flat for music. It blends seamlessly and draws no attention to itself at all for music. I have it located between the mains, which probably helps.

    Even in the 40-80 Hz region, the system actually sounds better with the sub in the loop because the sub does not display the slight 50 Hz hump that the RT800i's have, which otherwise makes the mid bass sound a little "tubby" in comparison.

    Of course the addition of true clean and effortless extension to below 20 Hz adds another dimension entirely to certain music. The Gladiator soundtrack for example contains a great deal of strong bass in the 25-30 Hz region.

    And high passing the mains only sends the 3803 amps the easy stuff and the increase in dynamic range and power is quite evident; the 3803 is loafing at all volumes.

    Finally, high passing the mains significantly reduces intermodulation distortion that would otherwise be created by the midrange driver trying to reproduce bass and mids at the same time. The clarity of the midrange in a high pass configuration is outstanding.

    With my particular rig, I wouldn't dream of running it sub-less for music.
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen ([email protected])
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,638
    edited September 2003
    How many people are using subs (SVS owners need not respond)that REALLY get into the low 20's?

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • gidrahgidrah Posts: 3,031
    edited September 2003
    I even disconnected my sub from my 5.1 rig. The 15"ers go low enough for me and sound great on the first watt. Someday I'll give them 2 watts.
    Make it Funky! :)
  • Tour2maTour2ma Old School Posts: 10,176
    edited September 2003
    Originally posted by gidrah
    Someday I'll give them 2 watts.
    Power crazy VOT owner...
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
  • Frank ZFrank Z Polk-a-dweeb Posts: 5,967
    edited September 2003
    Sean,
    No offense taken, and you are as entitled to your opinion as I am.

    Let's put the ball back in your court for a minute though. You question the Lsi15's ability to play well down to 22hz. I feel that the 15's do an exceptional job pounding out the bass. Can you shake more pictures off the walls by adding a sub, of course. I guess if you listen to a lot of Rap/Hip-Hop noise that is bass heavy then you may benefit from a seperate sub. But for realistic reproduction of music, I still say that a sub is not necessary.

    Dan can do what ever he wants with his money, but the blanket statement that "they very much do need a sub for music" is total BS! That's his opinion, which I disagree with. Perhaps his choice of music, or his listening room, or his preference of more bass than the artist/recording engineer intended is the basis for his beliefs. That's between him and his ears to decide, but is opinion is not "law"!

    I stand behind the comment I made, why spend the cash on a full range speaker that is not going to meet your expectations! If a person is adament about using a sub, then perhaps a book shelf speaker with a sub would make more sense.

    As for my Lsi-9's, no regrets with my purchase what so ever. They are fantastic for 2 channel listening without a sub in the area that they are in. I've had alot of people ask where the sub his hidden when they hear them playing. No they do not play as low the 15's, but for their intended purpose in my home, I don't need or want one. If they were in a dedicated, 2-channel only, critical listening area, then yes I would add a sub.

    Regarding reviews in any magazine, keep in mind that most of the professional reveiwers out there are comparing against a reference system(s) that most of us only dream about. Ever read a perfect review? Me neither. I've read quite a few that find fault with at least 1 or more features for virtualy every speaker, amp, pre-amp, universal remote, etc. Reviews from any magazine should always be taken with a grain of salt.

    If you have not had your hearing tested, go and get it done. You might be surprised at what you find out about your range of hearing. As a matter of fact I might have mine checked again as well, power tools are murder on the ears!

    A full range speaker is just that, a speaker that is capable of playing all of the frequencies that humans can hear. Not everyone is going to have the same range of hearing though. If a person has a pair of full range ears to go along with their full range speakers then they are truly blessed! Adding a sub to "hear" the subsonic sound is comical to say the least!

    Sean, the fact that you decided to spend more hard-earned cash on the 15's is mind numbing to me. After all the ranting about the Lsi9's not providing you with "Your Sound" I couldn't imagine you, of all people, buying more Lsi's! Hopefully they will live up to your expectations.
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
  • polkatesepolkatese Posts: 6,772
    edited September 2003
    One thing that I learned from using LSis for 2 channel critical listening is the need to have a good source and interconnect. When I tried moving around the 7/9/15, a sub made them almost indistinguishable between each other. As expected, without sub, the 7 sounds thin and not very enjoyable. On my current setup for 2 channels with 9, the low came out fine, but it's not as good as I like it to be, especially when I compare it to the 15 with Storm. Tinkering with the interconnects yield more variation on how it sounds, currently I have SCAT with bullet on this system, will try it with Transparent musiclink plus next week. Also, I am now looking into modding the CDP since I am convinced it will be the next improvement area that I can squeeze out of the system.
    I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,638
    edited September 2003
    First thing, I think you will find that on the 15, 22hz is an overall response. If I remeber (and I'm too lazy to look) the -3db is 30hz.

    It's just MY opinion, but if you are hitting 30hz at -3db, you are full range. I just don't think, for MOST musical applications you aren't missing much lower than that. I will also go on record as saying that in the sub 30hz region, an amp will run out of steam as quickly if not quicker than a speaker will.

    I still say, gimmie a speaker that will hit 30hz and an amp that will drive it with some authority and you'll have a tough time beating it with a sub/sat affair.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • Dr. SpecDr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited September 2003
    Originally posted by ATCVenom I only hope that the 8'' drivers on the 15's dont attempt to play octaves they clearly cannot handle. A problem with many Polk speaker's I have owned. Keeping fingers crossed over here.

    That can be a problem with a vented woofer design depending on the tune point and whether or not you install an infrasonic filter.

    While the vented design is 4th order and the FR trails off pretty quickly below the tune point, the drivers can still "try" to play lower than that, and cone excursion can become very excessive and suddenly manifest itself as audible farting or even a clack at higher volumes.

    For HT it's a real problem and overdriving a small vented woofer is easy. For music, which usually lacks significant content below 30 Hz, it's not as much of an issue. The LSi15 is tuned quite low if you believe the stats so I'm thinking the 15 should do justice to all but the deepest of music at any "reasonable" volume. I wouldn't feed the 15's a full bore organ piece at life-like playback volumes without expecting really bad things, though.

    Deep extension does not automatically translate into big air moving capability. If you plot the FR of the 15's at low volume, you might very well see good in-room extension to around 28 Hz. Increase the volume, and the FR curve will start to progressively roll off sooner due to the thermal and mechanical limits of the driver and also due to port compression. At high volumes, you might only see flat extension into the mid 30 Hz region. The best bass systems maintain a near linear FR at all volumes within the safe operating range.
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen ([email protected])
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited September 2003
    Originally posted by ATCVenom
    I sent full range signals to the LSi-9 in the past and a driver blew.

    //of course, he was probably clipping the 35w Rotel amp because he admittedly had the volume up at least half-way, if not more//

    It would be foolish of me to attempt the same thing again.

    Just added in a little snippit regarding the prior discussions on the 'blown' driver.

    I do agree, it would be foolish to that again. ;)

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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