Center channel dialogs hit and miss

matchan

Newbie Question

With my current Center channel Csi 3 and receiver Onkyo 606, what I notice is that the voices in some dialoges are amazingly real and full and some dialoges are very muddy. If I turn up the volume enough, the dialog sounds great. In other words turning up the volume makes the dialog come alive to me.

Is this a symptom of lacking power on the receiver ?

27dnast

I could be wrong about this... And I've experienced the issue you describe with other center channels, too.... But I've always assumed that poor dialog is more or less due to a poor audio track on the DVD or bluray.

kuntasensei

As you turn volume down, certain frequencies aren't as prominent. Movies are mixed for reference level - a known level set for theatrical presentation wherein the maximum level from any channel is 105dB, with the LFE at a max of 115dB. However, in the home, reference level would be way too loud because of the differences between large/small spaces. As you turn volume down away from reference level, the perceived mix changes. Most people just bump up their center channel level slightly, but technologies such as Audyssey DynamicEQ re-equalize the channels as you get further away from reference, and dynamically monitor the content to keep dialogue levels audible.

Inspector 24

I've experienced this as well. Some movies the dialogue is solid, locked on center and easily distinguished from background noises, others it seems to get lost or is too quiet. I attribute this to the differences in sound editing/mixing from movie to movie, and in nearly every instance a couple clicks higher on the center channel fixes it.

ROHfan

It also can be partly attributed to boom positioning during filming, and the different ambient tones that naturally occur in different set layouts. For dialog to always sound consistent they would have to re-dub the every line of dialog in the studio.

B Run

Audyssey dynamic volume can help that a lot, upgrading to the Csi 5 if you have room could make a big difference too.

mantis

The lower end Onkyo receivers lack in power and sound quality. I don't really care for any of them until you get to the 809 and 1009 which are ok at best.
I suggest looking into the Pioneer Elite line of receivers starting with the VSX-33. This is my entry level receiver which will power Polk speakers very well. I think it's a very nice match to your CSi3. As suggested the csi5 would be a better choice but will require more power to drive it properly.
On a side note , I really don't like Audyssey after 1 position. I think it muddies up the sound and overall sounds lifeless. I much prefer MCACC as it sounds much fuller and cleaner. I could be the overall better performance of the Elite receiver in general but I usually do a manual Calibration on receivers that have Audyssey.

20hz

ROHfan wrote: »

It also can be partly attributed to boom positioning during filming, and the different ambient tones that naturally occur in different set layouts. For dialog to always sound consistent they would have to re-dub the every line of dialog in the studio.

That sounds right . For example if the actor is turning sligthely and mumbling something it gets lost .
I had to bump up my center a few db for that and found some movies just cant be watched at talking volume .

bsoko2

TV networks are the worst for audio and background music. CBS HD has some of the best audio for HDTV shows, NBC HD is OK, and ABC network HD shows are the worst that I have ever heard. Way too much backgounrd coming through with center audio grabled. They all should have a standard for audio.

Tankra

I experienced this last night while watching The Social Network on stars HD. The scene when they were in the club my center (csi a4) went silent. It was so bad I got up to see if my center became disconnected. It wasn't but when I got closer I could hear the drivers working but the tweeter was silent. After that scene everything returned to normal. When the movie was over I rewound and watched the club scene again with the same result. Strange.

20hz

Tankra wrote: »

I experienced this last night while watching The Social Network on stars HD. The scene when they were in the club my center (csi a4) went silent. It was so bad I got up to see if my center became disconnected. It wasn't but when I got closer I could hear the drivers working but the tweeter was silent. After that scene everything returned to normal. When the movie was over I rewound and watched the club scene again with the same result. Strange.

I think they can mix it to come out of whatever speaker they desire , I have caught mistakes , for example if a actor hears something right behind him on his right and turns around it should not be on his right anymore , but audio came out that way .
I have heard that quiet center at times and I did check if wires were on even pressed the test tone .

kuntasensei

That scene is the same way on The Social Network Blu-ray. Damn difficult to hear the dialogue over the house music.

matchan

Cmon guys,

It's not the Csi3 thats misbehaving. I was hoping to get more suggestions in the lines of Dynamic EQ or similar but replacing the center channel with a CSi5 is probably not the solution here, althought I'm sure a more powerful AVR or amp will
be great value for coin...

Joe08867

Did you use the audyssey to set up the system? Did you set distances of each speaker beforehand?

If not you may need to adjust the distance of the center. If so you may need to add some mids using the dynamic eq. That may help bring out the dialog.

I usually run the center a bit hotter than the left and right speakers and also crossed over at 80hz.

polkfarmboy

I would run the csi3 on full range and youl get a nice bump in clarity

matchan

polkfarmboy wrote: »

I would run the csi3 on full range and youl get a nice bump in clarity

I have it at 80 hz now... interesting let me try it

matchan

What is the recommended crossover for your surround speakers ? I am running 4x RTi4s for surrounds. Audyssey calibration set them to 80Hz. Should I set them to Full range ?

Erik Tracy

matchan wrote: »

What is the recommended crossover for your surround speakers ? I am running 4x RTi4s for surrounds. Audyssey calibration set them to 80Hz. Should I set them to Full range ?

Recommended xover is 80Hz.

How is your Onkyo set up when you run Audyssey? Does the Onkyo have different PEQ profiles you can select from? You may want to try different PEQ profiles. I know for my Yamaha AVR, I have several PEQ profiles, "Flat", "Front", "Natural" etc - but I can also turn off PEQ and go into a graphic equalizer mode and manually 'tweak' freq settings for each speaker as well.

matchan

setting center to Full range did make the dialog pop. Wonder why Polk recommends setting it to small ?

Saw Lincoln Lawyer on blu-ray. The dialogs were amazingly full, warm and engaging..

27dnast

80 Hz is pretty much the cut-off as to when sound becomes directional. I've read that some receivers do a poor job of managing a crossover precisely (either cutting off too high or too low). The next setting on your receiver for X-over is probably 50 hz. Maybe you should try setting your x-over to 50hz and setting the speakers to small.

Maybe this will give you what you want?

kuntasensei

If setting it to full range alleviates dialogue issues, you very likely are having a phase issue between your center and your subwoofer (or if you're running the subwoofer hotter than the other channels, you're drowning out dialogue as the transition across the crossover range occurs). There are two things you can try:

1) Set the center back to 80Hz, then either play with the phase control on the sub itself or bump the subwoofer distance up or down slightly to see if one gives you a fuller sound across the crossover range. A test tone at 80Hz would be a good way to assess this.

2) I would try using a lower crossover point than 80Hz instead of running it full range. The CSi3's -3dB point is a relatively high 65Hz, meaning that with room-induced gain, you wouldn't want to use a crossover any lower than 60Hz if you can help it (and you definitely wouldn't want to set it to full range, since you're basically losing anything from 20Hz-55Hz in the center channel by doing so). You're also counting on a low-end receiver to power a full-range channel, which it really can't do capably. Try it at 70Hz, which should be out of the way of most dialogue ranges as far as intelligibility of dialogue goes.

polkfarmboy

I had an onkyo 607 and it drove a set of rti8 rti6 csi5 and fxi 3 great . When i hade the csi3 with the rti6 up front I had to set my csi3 to full range because I had the same issue as the op . I got a csi5 and never had to run it below 60hz so I think the problem is with the sound chip inside the onkyo . The 6 series of the onkyo models has always had a slightly muffled center channel but really great dynamic for sound effects and bass

Decide whats best for your ears and try out all the advice we shall give you on here

kuntasensei

polkfarmboy wrote: »

I had an onkyo 607 and it drove a set of rti8 rti6 csi5 and fxi 3 great . When i hade the csi3 with the rti6 up front I had to set my csi3 to full range because I had the same issue as the op . I got a csi5 and never had to run it below 60hz so I think the problem is with the sound chip inside the onkyo . The 6 series of the onkyo models has always had a slightly muffled center channel but really great dynamic for sound effects and bass

Decide whats best for your ears and try out all the advice we shall give you on here

Y'know, I had a similar situation back when I upgraded from a CSi30 to a CSi40. The 30 just never reproduced dialogue all that well, even compared to my RTi28s, which use the same drivers. Makes you wonder if that's just endemic to the cheaper Polk centers.

Either way, you're right... Try out everything, tweak as needed, go with what sounds best to you. That's part of the fun!