Velodyne DD12.............

Dr. Spec

Originally posted by ATCVenom
Just checked my finances. I will have the funds available for a REL Q150E by Friday.

You're kidding me, right? A 12" cube, 10" woofer, 25 pounds, 150 watts. I spent hours trying to convince you to buy SVS and you get sucked into a "killer" deal on a tiny acoustic suspension sub that needs power-robbing EQ to even approach 30 Hz extension. I hope you're paying about $250 for that sub, because that's all it's worth.

polkatese

GuitarheadCA,
here is my email: polkatese@verizon.net
talk to you soon..

Doc,
I do think your points before are very valid (on REL's strength and shortcomings), and I am seriously considering PB2+ (the 3-4 weeks waiting sucks, hopefully by the time I am ready to pull the trigger, the waiting period is back to normal, 1-5 days)

Dr. Spec

Sean - it's your money. I guess your statement about spontaneity explains a lot, because I sure didn't understand your decision making process.

Honestly, how much $$ would you pay for the REL Q150E if you did buy it?

I just didn't want you to get glassy eyed over the REL name when you sit back and objectively look at what you are getting, especially with the Q150E. REL should stand for Really Expensive Lows.

REL cannot cheat the laws of physics, even with an LT circuit or active EQ (there is a slam/extension switch), there are limits to how much volume and extension can be wrung from a tiny enclosure before distortion rears its ugly head.

I know the REL sound is excellent - no one disputes that. But you can also get excellent sound - along with far more power and extension and slam - for less money.

Here is an actual quote from Audio Review from a REL Q150E owner:

"Room size is of great importance. The room into which I placed my REL Q150E is 2300 cubic feet. I managed to adjust the unit so that it played sufficently loud for my original purposes, and was quite pleased with the sound of it. At first.

Later, I started to play at higher volume levels, especially for effects-oriented movies. I quickly found that the REL could not keep up with my Klipsch RF7 setup in a room that size. There was no........impact. From a musical standpoint, the REL still sounded quite nice, but it did not shake my floor the way I wanted. I should note also that the room has lousy acoustic properties, absorbing a great deal of signal quickly.

I moved it to a much smaller room, and had much more success. Had I intended to keep my HT system in that room, the REL would have been more than enough, especially given the great sound of it.

In order to maintain my system in the larger room, I purchased an SVS PC Plus 20-39, for $825, considerably less than the Q150E. The impact was immediate. The floor shook, the walls shook, stuff in the garage below shook. Where the REL could not keep up with my Klipsch high sensitivity speakers, the SVS blew them apart. It is more than I need, but I will keep it for impact......it is nice to be at half gain and wonder if you need to turn it down.

I still have my REL. I am going to make it part of a secondary system in the smaller room for now, as I am quite in love with the quality of the sound that it produces. Its small footprint helps, too. In all honesty, the quality of sound from the REL is as good as or better than the SVS; where quality and not volume is important, this sub is very nice. It is intended to fill in for your main speakers, not blast the windows out in a THX setup, and that is exactly what it does the best."

Notice how I left in the part about the sound quality (in his opinion) being comparable to the SVS? I'm showing impartiality here and conceding the REL has outstanding sound quality (they are known for that). But for the price you will be paying for the REL, you could probably get a PC-Plus or a PB2-ISD. If you value aesthetics, look at the stunning PB1-Plus.

To me, this is like a car salesman showing you two Ferrari's identical in price, looks, and handling, and saying model A has a 100 hp engine, and model B has a 600 hp engine. Which do you want - all other things being equal? Of course everyone chooses model B for the same price because it has a higher value.

Doc

Dr. Spec

Originally posted by polkatese

Doc,
I do think your points before are very valid (on REL's strength and shortcomings), and I am seriously considering PB2+ (the 3-4 weeks waiting sucks, hopefully by the time I am ready to pull the trigger, the waiting period is back to normal, 1-5 days)

Tom Vodhanel has been rather adamant that the new PB2-ISD sounds nearly identical to the PB2-Plus up to the limits of the ISD. Of course the Plus walks away from the ISD by a solid and clean 4 dB at the highest playback levels, but in an average size room, you might never hit the limits of either model.

Personally I'm the kind of guy who always thinks more power and SPL capability in reserve is a good thing so when the sub makes the occasional mind-blowing, gut-warping stretch demanded by today's DVDs, it won't puke its guts out. But for music and probably 90% of all HT applications, the ISD will do the same job for $300 less.

It's all a matter of perspective - the PB2+ in my room is loafing 90% of the time. If you occasionally like your HT LOUD and you will be watching say LOTR-TTT at -10 RL then I definitely advise the PB2+. If you are a bit more sedate and don't need to be completely and utterly convinced that the Ring Wraith's dragon actually just flapped its wings 10 feet from your body or the gates of Mordor really did just slam closed, then the PB2-ISD will be just as great too.

Doc

Dr. Spec

Originally posted by polkatese
Sean,
btw, Q150E is selling for $707 I wish I can borrow a SVS. Granted, I can technically return it, but it is such a massive box that it is not practical to return it, if I chose not to keep it.

Doc,
can I borrow your PB2 for a month?

I had a hunch I missed a bunch of stuff on page 1 of this thread and sure enough I had.

polkatese - it is exceedingly easy to return an SVS in the highly unlikely event you are not thrilled with it. SVS handles the paperwork and arranges for pick-up. You simply box it back up and SVS does the rest. At 115 pounds, granted, the PB2+ is a large subwoofer, but with two people, it can be reboxed pretty easily and prepared for return shipping. SVS has not had one PB2+ returned yet and they are selling like CRAZY to some VERY picky bass heads who take their bass quality and quantity very seriously.

Sean - there are now many SVS owners on this forum. You are looking for a head to head with REL on music and I would be glad to host anyone in the area for a music sub face-off or just a demo, but I cannot transport that size subwoofer with a three level spinal fusion.

Yes, the SVS subwoofer can play loud, but it can also play with subtlety and finesse and detail. My PB2+ review over at HTF had a very large section on music so as to not give the impression that the SVS was a "HT only" subwoofer and that music was not important to me. Music is vitally important to me and I usually have music casually going most of the time when working around the house and also I will sit down for those all important critical listening sessions with the chair in the sweet spot and the lights out.

With the DVD 2900 external inputs used for all music, I have the PB2+ calibrated flat for music, and it quite simply excels in this capacity. It is ultra clean, musical, refined, accurate, blends perfectly with the mains even at 80 Hz, and disappears in the room when properly calibrated. It is an exceptional value for $1,200 - nothing can touch this sub for the money.

There are two PB2+ owners at Club Polk and another member who heard one. See what they think. Ask Kev (kberg) what he thinks of the 20-39PC+ for music too.

Doc

polkatese

Doc,
thanks for the feedback. The next thing that I need to do, is to find a PB owner in the vicinity for a listening session. Your input on PB2-ISD is greatly appreciated. You nailed my listening habit, I do want to feel the rumble and be shocked with clean low bass on HT, but in most cases, I tend to not pushing the envelope at all. As a matter of fact, I tend to be concerned about having to fix cracked plasters in the wall Do you have insight into when the actual shipping will happen for the PB2-ISD (mid or late sept) time frame? On their web, it doesn't say whether there is going to be a 3-4 weeks wait like PB2+. Thanks again, Doc!

Grimster74

I'm one of those owners of a PB2+. I haven't read the whole thread yet but what are the concerns. I'm going to read know so I know what is going on, seems things are getting flared up.

Dr. Spec

Grim - things aren't really flaring up per se. I just got my nuts in a vice a little bit when it appeared ATC's purchase of a REL Q150E for between $700-800 was imminent.

But he is admittedly a spontaneous shopper and it's his money. I just figured for the $$ he could get a 20-39PC+ and get very comparable sound quality for music, and about 5 times the clean output and much deeper extension in the process.

I hate to see members throw $$ at import costs and big name allure because when you strip away the aura, you are left with a 12" square, 25 pound subwoofer that costs $800 shipped and that's the blow-out, super-discount price.

And some people are still saying SVS is SPL and not music and that's BS and I was hoping someone else could testify besides me. It's not like there's been any shortage of glowing SVS ownership reports lately at Club Polk anyway.

polkatese - you're best bet is to ask at HTF or AVS and see if you can find some soCal owners willing to host you for a demo. All I can say is you - like everyone else - will be shocked. I told Grim his PB2+ would make his DUAL PSW450's feel and sound like squeaky toys. I know he was a little unsure in his heart of hearts, but he took a leap of faith - and you should too.

The PB2-ISD will use the same enclosure, and after pre-orders are caught up on the PB2+ (very soon), shipping will be down to about a week or less. In fact, today I read it was already down to a week.

Doc





Doc

Grimster74

Being I'm at work I'll try to make this as short as possible until tonight. Purchasing the PB2+ was by far THE BEST INVESTMENT made thus far. The Doc is right, I watched the forums for nearly a month before I finally pulled the trigger. I just kept thinking what if this sub doesn't do what I want it too, did it, NO, it far exceeding my expectations. Now when I listen to music, it clean, tight, and far more accurate then I'd ever expected. I watched Blade II for the second time this weekend. With the PSW450's it was boomy and was very little to nothing below 35hz. Watched it yesterday and every time someone was punched or kicked, I actually felt like I was the one getting my **** kicked. Hope this help until I get home this afternoon.

Dr. Spec

There you have it - BEST investment thus far, and music is more clean, tight, and accurate than ever expected.

How about that opener in Blade II when the ultra low frequency rumbling starts when the Reaper in disguise starts laughing in the blood bank before he wastes the vampires?

That note is SO low, most subs completely ignore it and only play the overtones. It's more like a pressure on the ears than an audible tone. I've gotta think it's around 20-23 Hz.

I forgot how low that note was - a reference test for a sub, that's for sure. In fact, if you are running in the 3/25 tune, your SS filter might be cutting that scene out a bit. Drop your SS filter to 16 (if its not already there) and run that scene again and see if it makes a difference. I'll do the same tonight.

Doc

GuitarheadCA

polkatese, you have mail

VR3

Doc,

Around Christmas I will have about 900 dollars to throw around. Give or take. I'm looking at some variations here.

What would you pick Doc?

SVS PC+ 20-39?

or

SVS PB2 ISD

I much prefer the 2ISD, because of the dual woofers. I like the idea of having dual woofers firing in my 10.5x10.5 room !

I plan to use this for *extremely* LOUD gaming usage. Were looking at 110db consectutive back to back missle launches in Halo. Then your talking about exstensive music listening, with the occasional movie viewing at loud levels.

Thing I am missing in music now, I don't have that pressure or impact I want to feel. I have the bass, but I don't have the pressure. I want the pressure in my room. I know the PCi 25-31 or w/e will more than likely feel my room with enough bone shattering bass than I will ever need in here. But that little thing won't cut it for me...

With 900 to throw around...what would you do?

I believe SVS is the best bang for the buck. But hearing about slam and SPL, and not alot about accuracy isnt reasurring for me...I believe though that it can do it....

mantis

polkatese,
my advice is leave the Storm where it is and get the strata for the 2 channel system.DB isn't the only thing in sub's.Your a REL owner and I haven't heard one peep out of you negitive.....true isn't it.

The Q150E is designed for small rooms that need a clean low playing sub.The Q150e will play down to 20 hz well.it will shake the room.It's not a monster sub and not built to be.

This is a very high quality sub.

Doc makes his points in his own right,but HE hasn't heard a REL so he can only go by the spec's.........which is fine.

I never heard a SV S go,saw the butt ugly pic's of them and by design are probably good.

Buying a sub or any other speaker is a personal choice no matter how you look at it.WAF, or even your own you have to life with it.Sound quality is very important.I firmly believe in REL and all there products.Like anything else,you have to use the product correctly.Don't expect a small sub to play well in a very large room.

Music ability is very Important in a sub,most subs can go boom and shake **** but the ability to play low,clean and totally blend in with the system is key.

As ATC is going to do again is buy something without hearing it first.Good or bad I disagree with that decision.Buying products online without ever hearing them first I'm so against.There's no way in hell I would buy to try at home then go through all the hassels of shipping................eff that.I perfer to see my products before I buy.Demo them in the store/s where I shop and work.I like to compare them to all other products carried........see what it/they can do.Then I pick a few and bring home for the last demo...........I feel this is my way of doing things and don't feel like I'm putting my opnion on anyone.This is how I feel about this and I'm sticking to it.

Doc knows a good deal about subs.I love reading his posts.But Doc how much do you get out of the house and demo???I'm in no way picking on you Bro,nothing but love here man,but spec's are spec's and real world in house p;erformance is key.....I read spec's every single day of my life and fins alot of them lie,cheat and damn near steal.Spec's are not the end all be all.I think judging a product by it's spec's is a start.Like a foundation for a quest.Then the real step is learning.Digging and the real truth is feeling about it......thats what I do.I feel about it.If I don't feel all warm and fuzzy,then I have no juice.

Dan

VR3

Well I must say,

I'm 95% music. 5% movies.

The SVS will hardly ever be used for movies, and i have strong taste in music and how it sounds. If it dosn't pass, I won't think twice about shipping it back.

I believe however, the SVS will forfill my taste in music in its reproduction. Then again, this I am unsure. As we all know, ported subwoofers do tend to be boomy in its own sense. Beit, alot or very very little (hardly noticeable). We will see, with 3 gigantic ports, and what 2 or 3 plugs? I can have alot of fun with this.

I will be sure to give one f***ing long review on the SVS if I purchase it. I will throw some of the heaviest, loudest, hardest hitting bass that is hard to keep accurate on and report back. *IF* it can forfill my taste which is loud as a rock concert, and accurate as Wilson or the SRT. Then it will be good. It will all boil down, but I will most definetely go into reviewing/listening to the SVS with a clear mind. If it passes, who knows. The judgment day will be very soon, as I hope to pay my Dad back in 1 month or less. Then it will be on to the SVS savings fund.

izafar

Ok, as I have listened to both Rel and SVS, I have to give my 2 Cents:

I would pick REL if:
1. My listening preference is at least 80% music.
2. WAF factors only allows a small box
3. And I have money for it

Otherwise SVS PB1 ISD does the job very well. I couldn’t tell any performance difference between the two on music (i-e SVS PB1-ISD in my 3000 CF room vs. REl Q150 in Tweetor's demo room which about half the size). Both have a very good quality of sounding very clean and blending right with the music.

Unfortunately I have not demoed Rel on HT material, but I suspect that SVS will beat it pretty easily (specially in my room). HT material requires a lot from a sub, rather then just sounding clean and tight, it needs to put out some real SPL, and in order to do so it needs to move some air. This is where Doc's quote become important (Laws of physics cannot be changed). You need to have a bigger enclosure, good driver and amp to do that. And that’s simply what SVS is doing.

To conclude: Rel makes great subs, and personally would get one if the above three conditions are met.

polkatese

Gents,
Thank you for the feedback, I really don't want to flare things up around here.

Dan,

polkatese,
my advice is leave the Storm where it is and get the strata for the 2 channel system.DB isn't the only thing in sub's.Your a REL owner and I haven't heard one peep out of you negitive.....true isn't it.

I've been very happy with the Storm, there is no question that enjoyed the Storm very much. Wish I could afford Stadium III

Doc,

polkatese - you're best bet is to ask at HTF or AVS and see if you can find some soCal owners willing to host you for a demo. All I can say is you - like everyone else - will be shocked. I told Grim his PB2+ would make his DUAL PSW450's feel and sound like squeaky toys. I know he was a little unsure in his heart of hearts, but he took a leap of faith - and you should too.

The PB2-ISD will use the same enclosure, and after pre-orders are caught up on the PB2+ (very soon), shipping will be down to about a week or less. In fact, today I read it was already down to a week.

Thanks for suggestions, Doc! I will look around...

I did some more reading around Strata III, and other than the fact, (in this case) the price is very attractive, in comparison to Storm, many folks felt it's lacking. In other words, given the choice, almost all will pick Storm over Strata. And also, the price I am getting at, it's about the same as what I can get on Audiogon (brand new too). So, in this case, I am going to let it slide.

I owe it to myself to audition PB2+, and I will report back as far as my opinion. One thing is for certain, I budget is capped at $1000, and it has to be a box, no cylinder

GuitarheadCA, you've got mail!

mantis

ATC,
thats the beuty of things with the intranet.In the past mag's where the only other source.Sweet wolrd we live in huh????
You gotta do what you feel is right.This holds true all the way around.I voice my opnion and you know I mean no harm.I respect you and almost everyone else in here.I know you'll be happy with the REL as it's a high end sub.Most high end audio philes I have met use REL.It's the sub of choice between audiophiles.Remember your buying into the bottom of the line and it's far better in quality then most sub's offered on the market.I would own the Q150e myself for a sweet 2 channel system.There are many better Rel subs but not for that price....hand and hand it sucks but true.

polkatese,
anytime man.The Strata is a super good sub.It's slighty different then the storm but hell its a steal for that price.Scoop it quick as it will not last,they are going fast.We are pushing them out the door.Shame but very true.

Velodyne is working out great for us.We are selling them more and more each day.I have Installed a couple of them and I'm happy with all there sub's so far.The DD series is still high on my list.Not a proven sub for me to own just yeat.I can still get a Storm when I want it.It's the sub to beat and man whatg a sub 2 beat.

izafar,
very cool.It would make for a better demo if the REL was in your home.The stores aren't that good for demoing but not bad either.

One day I will hear a SVS sub go.Next time I'm in Buffalo I plan on meeting up with ther DOC.

So DOC,
door is still open right???Beer, Dinner,demo????I love how you love SVS...........

dorokusai

Be different, check out the Nordost's. Good luck.

kberg

Originally posted by Dr. Spec
There are two PB2+ owners at Club Polk and another member who heard one. See what they think. Ask Kev (kberg) what he thinks of the 20-39PC+ for music too.

Doc, thanks for flagging me on the other thread to put in my $0.02 here.

Sean, my 20-39 PC+ is KILLER on music as well as HT - even at low volumes the SVS brings out the bass that was never there before. Like all statements of this nature, this is MY opinion, but to me, an SVS makes you want to play all your music and DVD's all over again...immediately! An SV sub creates for the listener an entirely new and extremely rewarding experience! And with an SVS, you can also FEEL the difference!

I'd take Doc's word for it - if you don't like the SVS model (that I think would be best recommended by Tom V. at SVS) for your preferences and room conditions, it's an EASY return. But you WON'T return it!

Kev

Dr. Spec

Sorry for the late chime in, guys - been ATV shopping. I'm the proud owner of a 2004-1/2 Polaris Sportsman 400 with a whole slew of extras.

Anyway, Dan - I went on an extensive sub demo journey when I decided to upgrade my dual PSW350's.

I have demo'd at length (at least an hour each) the following subs:

Klipsch RSW-15
Velo HGS-18
Revel B-15
M&K MX-5000 MK II

I tried to pick the best of what's available locally rather than simply running from store to store like a damn fool.

There are other high end subs of course (REL included), but I had heard enough from these excellent performers to know what real bass and real subwoofers were all about. Then I took a chance and bought SVS as the reported new giant killer on the block. I haven't looked back. My PB2+ will run with any of these killer subs - for a bunch less $$. That's the SVS philosophy - period.

Butt ugly? Nope. Masculine and dominant - yes. Gorgeous? B4+, PB2-Ultra, PB1+. http://www.svsubwoofers.com/news.htm

The invite is always open Dan - next time you visit upstate NY, give me a ring. I'll be here and we'll have a nice dinner and single malt scotch and give the system a listen.

Sean - it's all good, no hard feelings. Like I said, it's your money; spend it however you see fit. Both the REL and the SVS will sound comparable according to those that have heard both. The SVS will just do it louder and for less $$. I'll tell you this - I can afford any sub I just listed above - cash - without blinking. I buy SVS because they compete and win - for less $$. SVS is the real deal - no ****.

Sid - ported subwoofers boomy? Tell Wilson their subs are boomy then too, OK? And throw Aerial in the mix while you're at it. Do I think you'll like the PB2-ISD? Yes. Will it outperform a PC+? Yes, but not by much.

Doc

VR3

Calm down Doc, I know Wilson's are ported. But dang man, thats a 87,000 dollar speaker!!! lol! But its all good, I know what you mean...lol

Well.....

depending on my funds (if I can do it) the PB2 ISD will be mine....lol

faster100

$87000.00 dollar speakers, come on guys/sid.. are any of us buying these speakers, LOL NO

lets compare apples with apples here.

Sid ****! just buy my Pb1 and i will get the Pb2-isd

why didnt they release the Pb2-isd a month sooner??

This sub is more then enough for my small room, But the pb2-isd is so massive and 2 12''ers.. I want it!! someone spot me the 3 bills to upgrade...

Ceruleance

why is everyone going for the SVS boxes? Is it just WAF?

To me the Dual 16-46CS plus sampson S-700 amp package seems like it would outperform the PB2+

Loud & Clear

Just wanted to add, if I may, that I've really enjoyed reading this entire thread. Good info, good laughs.

Not that anyone's interested, but after numerous looks at the SVS website, I keep finding myself coming back to the 'Dual CS-Ultra Package.' Before the year is out I'm going to place a call to SVS and talk this package over with their staff; they'll either dissaude me or approve.

Fun thread, guys.

Oh, and Doc, I remembered thinking at the time, when you said your days of championing SVS were over, that that was unlikely to be the case ... passion doesn't die just because you tell it to; really, really hot chicks taught me that lesson.

Dr. Spec

Originally posted by Ceruleance
why is everyone going for the SVS boxes? Is it just WAF?

To me the Dual 16-46CS plus sampson S-700 amp package seems like it would outperform the PB2+

Dual cylinders 20-39 or 25-31 CS+ or PC+, would indeed outperform the PB2+ if they were co-located. More internal volume, more port, more power, same drivers. Just physics, really. The 16-46 would troll deeper of course, but might actually lag behind in overall output to a PB2+.

Split the cylinders up in different locations, and you lose the colocated coupling effect and all bets are off - the PB2+ would probably nose ahead.

Actually, cylinders to me are the ultimate form follows function and I actually prefer them over boxes for that reason - the PB2+ just fit my needs very well in this case. Dual SS cylinders (18 Hz tune) would be the ultimate.

L&C - I was having a bad hair day. You are right, you cannot kill passion; I wouldn't do it if I didn't love it and the product. See me before you swing an email over to Tom/Ron and we'll talk about your room and listening preferences and I'll help narrow it down for you.

Doc