Velodyne DD12.............

mantis

OK...

so as a company we drop REL..........very stupid move.We bring back Velodyne which we carried years ago.........as I understood it,we where adding Velodyne not getting rid of REL.Company stands that Velodyne offers a more complete line as they have subs under a grand.....REL does not.

In my opnion I have never heard a better sub then REL for music.They are the very best in the bussiness as what I have heard.I have heard hundreds of sub,thousands is more like it......but man REL just goes away in the room like NO other.There are many great sub's out there but REL just does it for me........

Now I'm all about this new DD12 Velodyne sub we just got in.It replaces the HGS series,there is a complete line of DD subs from the 10 to the 18.The 12 is what I'm looking at as it's the only sub we have carried that can even be in the same room as the REl without getting it's crushed.Martin Logan subs we have are also Incredible sounding and really balanced.I dug into the Depth/Decent over at Soundex when I worked there.Simply killer subs........but I'm more intregued by Velodyne as they always have my deepest respect.

So I'm learning all about this new sub which by the way doesn't have any adjustments on it except volume........all adjustments are done VIA a on screen menu..........YES on screen like your TV or Projector.Funny seeing S video and composite coming out of a sub.......wonder what would make the sub sound better using composite or S.....................joke people...........laugh:D

So it has a buit in EQ which I need more time to play with for a deeper review.Also the sub was brand new out of the box and tight sounding.I'm going to allow the sub to run for a week or so befor e I rip deeply into it.......I will say this..it brought back memories of the FS series we carried when it started to blow up the ceiling tiles........man this damn thing can pressurize a room....man what output..........I like that.It's super clean sounding as well.I was enjoying it running with Vienna.I feel Sonus would be a better test speaker ......another rediscovered love.......bad for me as I'm getting warm and fuzzy feeling everytime I Install a Sonus and B&K system.......man how wonderfull they play together.......they also use the Vifa tweeter........sweet.But thats another story in itself.......

Back to the Velodyne.I compare just for the hell of it the REL Q201E sub VS the DD12.The REL sounded a bit better overall but didn't have the output of the Velodyne.It didn't blow up the tiles....but sounded great trying.They both play under 20hz so no problem with low bass demo's..............so stick around for the next review......sorry this one was so incomplete.Not like me to write like this but hell I'm having a ball with loving the Velodyne so far.It's fun to get juiced on NEW things.......

Last words is I'm very sad to see REL go.........Such a bad move in my opnio..........but I am one amoung many

Dan

VR3

Dan,

Sonus Fabor (Their 8,000 dollar pair) vs. the SRT (7,500 Stereo Pair)

Holds NOTHING in comparison. I've heard them both. I heard the Sonus on a Krell, the Sonus was not impressive at all. I heard the SRT at Polk Audio HQ, and that thing makes the Sonus look like a Polk Audio RT speaker.....just my op....

You should do a SVS, REL, Velo comparison.....

mantis

Mx,
your opnion is noted but I dissagreew ith it.I find Sonus Faber to be one of the very best speakers I have ever heard.The SRT's are a great speaker and speaker system.I like them both but I feel the Sonus have what I will call CLASS.One day I will explain what I mean.....

ATC,
the Velodyne DD12 is 2499.99.It's built really well and the black lacquer cabnet goes perfect with the Lsi's....in the looks department anyway.

You might want to look into there SPL line,they start around a grand. The SPL800 which has a 8 inch woofer is nice,no where near a REL, now that I'm thinking about it,you should try to scoop up a REL Q150E we are blowing all RELS out to make room for the new kid on the block(damn bully)I believe we are selling the Q150E under a grand now.Stupid killer deal for one of the very best sub's made.

faster100

That is alot of money for a sub IMHO..

DD-12

14.5" x 14" x 15.5"

17 Hz to 120 Hz +/-3 dB

1250 watts RMS
(3000 Peak)

15 Hz to 199 Hz (variable)(in 1 Hz increments) 6/12/18/24/30/36/42/48 dB per octave slope (variable) Default: 80 Hz @ 24 dB/octave

12" (9.7" piston diameter

67 lbs

looks like a sunfire far as size and amp and specs go..

VR3

Hmmm, well for 2,500 or so -- you could almost buy two PB2+.....*almost*

Dan,
Class as in looks? The sonus has that look to it, but the SRT has that im gonna squash if you even dare to turn on look. It also sounds WORLDS better than the Sonus....IMO of course...looks or not, the SRT is the better speaker to me....

mantis

faster100,
you get what you pay for and all.Good electronics are never cheap........shame but very true........what are you going to do.....

Mx,
Class......ok since you asked I'll retort.

Class means as I look at it is a speaker with beauty.A speaker that shines when playing all kinds of music.A speaker that grabs you and holds your attention for awhile.Plays everything with a touch of grace.Sweet speakers dude.I don't see what you don't like about them.Intresting to say the least.There sound is warm and fuzzy.Basically they sound like Lsi series Polks.There very close.They remind me alot of my Lsi15's when I listen to them.Alot of the same going on there.........but something is different.

ATC,
your welcome.Velodyne does have lower end more affordable subs but the quality does down as well.There sub's are very nice even there bottom line models.They have a line called DLS,it's sorta like the CHT series.I believe they are a step up from there.
I need to fine tune my Velodyne knowledge a bit.It will get there in time.

Dan

faster100

well i paid $645.00 with shipping for my new SVS and i couldn't be much happier.. But its all in what you hold as true value..

GuitarheadCA

Woot Woot for Velodyne!

I love my SPL 1000, wish I had another one just like it!

But I'm glad to hear that tweeter is carrying the DD series, as it's the nearest Hi-Fi store to me by a long shot. I can't wait to get a listen

Tour2ma

Originally posted by mantis
...wonder what would make the sub sound better using composite or S.....................joke people...........laugh:D

No coaching needed... started chuckling as I found myself wondering if MC was warranted here.

Interesting observation on the size and power faster. That is getting into Sunfire territory. Is the Velo driver a traditional cone or a "bladder" ala the Sunfire? What's the throw?

faster100

DD-12

14.5" x 14" x 15.5"

17 Hz to 120 Hz +/-3 dB

1250 watts RMS
(3000 Peak)

15 Hz to 199 Hz (variable)(in 1 Hz increments) 6/12/18/24/30/36/42/48 dB per octave slope (variable) Default: 80 Hz @ 24 dB/octave

12" (9.7" piston diameter

67 lbs


woofer forward fireing- 12" (9.7" piston diameter

310 ounces (19.3 lbs

voice coil- Tandem 3-inch push-pull
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sunfire true subwoofer signature

2700-watt amp featuring patented Tracking Downconverter power supply
Frequency response: 16 Hz to 100 Hz (+0, -3 dB)

Greater than 116 dB peak SPL with room gain

Input coupling is optical and it accepts standard and high-level inputs
Bore 10 inches – stroke 2.35 inches

Total air volume displacement is over 360 cubic inches

Crossover points variable from 35 Hz to 100 Hz
Crossover slope 36 dB/octave
Input level (volume) control
Phase continuously adjustable 0 to 180 degrees
Passive 70 Hz 6 dB per octave hi-pass line level output for
satellite loudspeakers
Dimensions: 13" by 13" by 13"

Two-year warranty
Weight: 57 lbs.

---

Dr. Spec

The Velodyne DD servo series is world class. The Sunfire cannot begin to compare in terms of output, extension, and distortion. It is well known the Sunfire distortion levels approach 50% at even moderate playback levels at the lowest frequencies.

Sunfire does the micro-sub better than anyone, but it is really unfair to compare that genre of subwoofers to full size units or the servo drive subs. The micro-sub concept has deliberate trade-offs in performance in order to keep the size down, and most owners are people who require a near invisible sub for room decor and aesthetic reasons.

The new DD series will have incredibly low distortion. It will actually have a user variable servo sampling speed that will allow "higher" levels of THD for HT applications where maximum output is a primary consideration.

"Higher" is a relative term when you are talking Velodyne servos; the DD series can be held to around 1% THD (at the highest servo sampling rate) for critical listening applications and I believe will never be allowed to exceed 3% THD under any circumstances.

The electronics, EQ, and GUI are class leading (similar to the excellent Revel B15), and the new DD servo circuit stands alone. Once again Velodyne proves why they are a leader in world class subwoofers.

Downside? Incredibly expensive and overall output will be kept below the true potential of the driver by the servo circuit. While it is laudable to keep THD as low as possible, it becomes audible in the deep bass range around 10% for most people, even those with discriminating ears.

The reason I recommend SVS is because they take the "can't cheat the laws of physics" DIY approach to building their subs and they do it an an unbeatable price. They achieve incredibly good sounding, flat, deep and clean bass the old fashioned way: By using big, custom designed, long throw, extremely high quality drivers, huge and rigid enclosures, and tons of vent. Like the hot rodders used to say, "there is no replacement for displacement".

While it would be more work on the user's part, there is no question in my mind a gorgeous real wood finished $2,000 PB2 Ultra and a $400 Rane RE17 Parametric EQ could be made to match the flat in-room FR of the $2,500 DD12, and still easily waste it in overall clean output.

With that said, the Velo DD series will be turnkey, user friendly, and will immediately earn a spot on anyone's short list for high end subs. Velo HGS (now oop) and the new DD is really good stuff.

Doc

faster100

clearly i have no deep experiance with subs, i was comparing enclosure size, amp, and similiar specs as a basis alone.. Im sure for 2500.00 it had better do something good and im sure it does.. I guess some like bang for buck and some just like buck first then bang.. LOL

GuitarheadCA

Wonder what your Circuit City discount will be Guitarhead.

I wouldn't know. I quit three days ago. Mainly because I'm going back up to school, but the really stupid management at my location pushed it up a couple weeks. I'm actually really bitter, the audio/video manager think's I'm a total slacker because I don't do as much dusting as I should. He thinks I'm not a hard worker, because I don't always LOOK busy. This is the same manager that comes to ME when new speakers come out for the info. He came to ME to ask what receiver he should get. I'll tell you the problem with CC managers- all they know how to do is ****. A week ago, I sold our REFERENCE A/V system. Hitiachi 57" RPTV, Polk RTi system, Onkyo 6.1 reciever, all the cables, and monster power, the whole ticket came out to 5k (the biggest single ticket I've ever sold). I point this out to a manager- you know what he says? "Why didn't you get any warranty on it?" No Friggin praise whatsever. This is because that's all they get from corporate. They get hammered, so they take it down a notch, and hammer us. And what they want are employees that can take that. Employees that are machines. I got in trouble because I thought out of the box and questioned some of the policies. My Manager hated that. Like sales associates are no longer allowed to go behind the front counter (neccesary to get tags, paper, bags, gift cards, any other supplies), and are no longer allowed to go in the warehouse (I guss they think we're gonna steal a 4' box out of there or something) which make doing tasks a PAIN. I ask my mangers the reason for this- yeah, they can't give me a good one. So, some of the other mangers (that recognise the skills) asked me if I'm going to be coming back like I did this year for christmas and summer. All I know is I sure hope I won't be.

VR3

Sean, remember you have to work there 90 days before you get the 60% off discount....

GuitarheadCA

Sean,
Hey don't take my remarks too much into account, most of my problem was with MY managers, your's may be better. Also, when I was hired, There were a couple mangers at my location that made all the difference; but unfortunatelly, they left. Overall, I liked it- I like selling, I liked what I sold, and the people I worked with were cool. But man, I took that discount to the MAX. I would estimate I SAVED (not spent) about $3,500 during my time there. Everything is at cost, so the percentage off varies, but sometimes you get sweet deals. My last day, I picked up a PSW 202 for the dorm room for $50! New! w/ wrranty and return policy! The thing performs as well as the $300 psw303. That was a steal. Also, I'm sure you'll be stoked if you plan to buy a big screen- plenty of markup on those. But yeah, orientation is a pain- especially all the dumb online training modules (doesn't take long to get sick of those). But they're not as bad as they used to be- since now you get paid to do them, where as before there was no compensation for them(since we were on commision).

As far as my future employment plans, probably none for a little while. There's not a big need as my parents are paying for college (spoiled but grateful). I would like to get involved with the recording studio on campus, or doing sound/lighting for one of our performing arts stages. Well see, school work may just swamp me. But good luck bro!

PS. sorry for the thred Hijack Mantis

mantis

GuitarheadCA,
Funny I just installed the new SPL1000 in black lacquer.Very nice little thousand dollar sub.This is also redesigned this year kinda like the HGS of last year with some minor tweaks.........so 2 speak.

Good read Doc as usual.........lovin those SVS subs.The DD12 is a remarkable sub and as I noted above,I'm giving it a serious listen.I'm considering it for the theater...but the REL is going to be one hell of a hard act to follow.REL isn't about awesome pressure in a room,it fills really well,but if it lacks anywhere,blowing the room out would be it's only downfall.It sports a 10 downfiring driver.Storm II that is.So we shall see.I am however digging the remote control feature with the DD12,thats so cool.onscreen menu of the sub is just outragous..........

O the road I must travel.........

polkatese

psstt....Storm III! I know you want it.....

how things, Dan?

How 'bout getting me a deal on Strata III? either that or PB2.

mantis

Hey polkatese,
whats new Bro???

REL you want?Rel you can have for killer deals now at Tweeter.We need to get them all out to make room for the new kid on the block...so stop on in and see whats left,you might go home with a new toy............

polkatese

I haven't been to Tweet in awhile..try to stay out of trouble!

mantis

I wish I could say the same.Downside to working there I guess......

polkatese

Dan,
thanks to you , I called my rep at Tweeter, and guess what? they have a Strata III Rosenut for $989, which can be negotiated to include sales tax. It's a great deal for a REL. But before I do anything, I am seeking opinion:

Option 1:
move Storm III for two channel and get a SVS PB2+/Ultra. I am taking a huge leap of faith, as its ability to integrate well with LSi (for music)

Option 2:
Get Strata III for two channel and leave Storm III in the main system.

My dilemma:
I really get juiced up reading about price/performance of SVS and its ability to perform very well on HT. If its integration to music is comparable to Storm III, I will have the best of both world!

What do you think? thanks a bunch in advance!

ps: another well received sub would be ACI Titan, but haven't heard much in this forum.

VR3

I plan to buy the SVS PB2 ISD or the PCi 20-39 -- and this SPL stuff will be great, but it will all boil down to muscial. I have heard some of the best bass in music from the Wilson X-1. Can the SVS compare? we will see.....

polkatese

Sean,
btw, Q150E is selling for $707 I wish I can borrow a SVS. Granted, I can technically return it, but it is such a massive box that it is not practical to return it, if I chose not to keep it.

Doc,
can I borrow your PB2 for a month?

faster100

Sid, what difference does it make if it can stand up with the Wilson, if you cant afford having one? Not saying you can't, I just assume that.. I say get the "best" that you can afford, screw it if it does as good as Rel, or Wilson unless you plan to get "One" of those subs also and/or.. and that go's for anyone. SVS isnt all about SPL, don't knock it until you tried it.. figure of speech i know no one has knocked them here.. BUt its either buy and try or take Doc's word the most knowledgable on base on the board far as i'm concerned.. Doc says SVS, Dan says Rel.. take ya pick and try it out.. but not for what other subs can do, but for the one you choose can do or not and because you like it, not Joe smoe... ok thats all.. LOL

GuitarheadCA

Sean,
it's funny you should mention movement without restriction, as that was how it used to be. They pushed the sales associates to know the entire floor. This worked for me, because I know computers well in addition to a/v. They even said it's better customer service to be able to assist your customer wherever his/her needs are without handing him/her off to someone.
But right about the time they switched to hourly, they moved to a strict department policy, where you're supposed to stay in your department, and call a manger if you want to so much as think about leaving it. This part I really didn't like, becuase I can sell anything in the store as well as audio; and I like the freedom to move also. But oh well, things may be different at different locations.

As far as the HDTV goes, don't worry about it too much- TV's arn't discounted as much as audio. It's probably not that much under $700 at cost.

Peter

VR3

No SVS is reknowned for loudness. You hear very little about accuracy. Im a bass guy, I like loud but *right* bass.

Accurate bass can be done by anyone. SVS's midline could very well do it, even the botl. It all depends on how they design it. I am a music buff.

You can't really compare Sony and SVS, but people will if they owned the Sony first.

I have heard Wilson. I have heard Velodyne HGS, I have heard Mcintosh Subs, I have heard Def Tech, I've heard M&K, SRT, PSW, just to name a few. The most accurate I have heard yet would have to be the Wilson. The loudest, would have to be the SRT. That is slammin bass. Fo shizzle!

EDIT: I take that back.....

The SRT is the closest thing to the Wilson I have heard. The Wilson could not slam the SRT...

The SRT is accurate as el in the bottum end. Loud to. I would say, it could rule the Wilson in this area. Wilson may win in the top end. But Im afraid, the Wilson's will steal the mids and highs. Soundstage belongs to Wilson to. But it will not slam the SRT. The SRT will be right there with laughs and giggles of happiness! But were talking a 80,000 dollar difference. For 80,000 more, I could NOT justify the X-1. The SRT is just THAT good.

polkatese

Sean,
The store that I am dealing with is in Chino Hills, CA phone # (909) 590.5700, talk to Walter or Fernando, they will be happy to help you...

On second thought, Dan's store might also have those available. If you can find a closer Tweeter, I think that would make it a better option.

GuitarheadCA

Hey Polkatese - You in the 909? or Near it? I'm right in the middle of it.

polkatese

yes, bud! on the north side...

GuitarheadCA

Dude! There's a pair of LSi's within the 909! Fabulous! Can I get your email? Or if you could, shoot me one at Peter@audioman.net Either way- it'd be much appreciated

Tour2ma

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
No SVS is reknowned for loudness. You hear very little about accuracy.

Geez, Sid. Pay attention...

http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9871