Whats the top HT center channels out there?

polkfarmboy

Quite often I find myself just watching a bluray on 2 channel for the simple fact that tower speakers do such a great job .

Is there any center channel out there that can perform like a tower can for clarity and dynamics during movie night ?

Here's the deal I would like each member to choose one center channel and post a pic and a description of why its awesome

VR3

center channels sucks...

Bookshelf speakers acting like center speakers is the trick!

I love my setup with dual centers...

jinjuku

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

center channels sucks...

That's a pretty broad statement.... There are center channel alignments that get it right (W-T/M-W) arrangements for example Even at that point we are talking about just improving off axis SQ. Even an MTM straight on the sweet spot is fine.

Sherardp

CSi5 does a very good job. I run it about 2-3db hot, no issues with my front end at all.

jinjuku

Here are two center channels that I built (Zaph ZDT3 center and Zaph ZA5.3c):



The ZDT3 (larger) does a better job for low end extension and off axis listening. The ZA5.3c is jaw droppingly articulate in the mid frequencies. An very high resolution woofer Zaph has made. The ZA5 based designs are a whole new price/performance paradigm.

I would put the ZDT3 in the 'performs' as well as a tower category.

VR3

Eh - I will stand by my statement...

Quite simply -

Polk LSi7 - 799.99 a pair
Polk LSiC - 559 each

For 240 bucks you get another tweeter, another cabinet, another crossover and the ability to take them off their mount and use them in a 2 channel system. You get flexibility that you will not get with a LSiC

All I am saying is with bookshelf speakers you get placement options and dual purpose and to top it off I ultimately think center channel speakers do not sound as good dollar for dollar

treitz3

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

Eh - I will stand by my statement...

I'll be right there with him. If you heard his rig, you would understand. I have not once heard any center do what Trey has going on. Argue all you want, I don't care. All I know is what I have experienced.

jinjuku

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

Eh - I will stand by my statement...

Quite simply -

Polk LSi7 - 799.99 a pair
Polk LSiC - 559 each

For 240 bucks you get another tweeter, another cabinet, another crossover and the ability to take them off their mount and use them in a 2 channel system. You get flexibility that you will not get with a LSiC

All I am saying is with bookshelf speakers you get placement options and dual purpose and to top it off I ultimately think center channel speakers do not sound as good dollar for dollar

I can agree with most of that. Bookshelves have no problem sitting in for center channel duty.

It's still a rather broad statement considering all the permutations out there. I mean if you have a line array for L/R channels well you are going to want something to match up for center channel.

My center channel cost me under $300 and a weekend to build.

jinjuku

treitz3 wrote: »

I'll be right there with him. If you heard his rig, you would understand. I have not once heard any center do what Trey has going on. Argue all you want, I don't care. All I know is what I have experienced.

Looks like he's using the height function of his AVR for the other center (?).

Where did I say his setup didn't rock

My optimum setup (some day) will be an AT screen with full towers for the L/C/R behind it. So I understand using either floor standing or bookshelves.

If you get a chance build the ZA5c. I think you will impressed. You could even build two and use one for a presence speaker.

VR3

I am just using them in parallel with 300 watts running to them... angled appropriately it puts the vocals square in the middle of the TV and works wonders...

Thanks Tom!!

See your center channel cost 300 to build... my bookshelf speakers were 340 shipped - already assembled and sound great! Now I am assuming Zaph stuff is better than Def Tech!

I also spent 60 a speaker to mod them too!

jinjuku

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

I am just using them in parallel with 300 watts running to them... angled appropriately it puts the vocals square in the middle of the TV and works wonders...

Thanks Tom!!

See your center channel cost 300 to build... my bookshelf speakers were 340 shipped - already assembled and sound great! Now I am assuming Zaph stuff is better than Def Tech!

I also spent 60 a speaker to mod them too!

I would assume the Zaph stuff is better than the Def Tech also:biggrin: I am still in awe of his ZA5 speakers. Just mind blowing what he did for a $39 transducer.

My center is ear level so the dialog seems to come from the screen. Again, not debating, just saying not all circumstances are such that someone will be able to get away with a bookshelf or floorstander. Your point very much stands.

VR3

Yeah I have heard a few centers I could live with but always seemed like information always seemed to be under or above the TV --

I even heard a setup one time with this center channel...



While it was an amazing sounding center channel - I distinctly remember the page turn from Shrek in the beginning of Shrek 1 - it was the demo material... while it was clear it was like the center channel was reproducing it vs being part of the movie...

mantis

The best center channel speaker on the market is the one designed to go with your main speakers. I can't believe so many of you have issues with center channels. I'm gonna go on the fact that placement , wire , amps , calibration or just owning the incorrect center is the problem.
I'm sorry I don't agree this is a weak link in home theater setups but I can tell you from my experience that I have never felt the system I have setup needed a better center. In these cases I have always had the matching center. This also includes personal setups with 2 polk system , RT and LSI, Dynaudio and Definitive Technology over the last 10 years. My center channels where cs400 , LsiC , Audience 122c and my current Mythos 10. None of them I would go on record to say I needed a better center ever.

So really guys what gives?

VR3

Yeah see I disagree with that. I have on many occasions - Polk being the best example the center channels sound nothing like the mains...

I think if you want to go that route you have to say your mains (single) would be the BEST center channel for your system... hands down....

if I had a THIRD Super Tower for my center channel and a 12 ft screen - that would be bad to the bone!

treitz3

mantis wrote: »

So really guys what gives?

Maybe you are not as picky?

mantis

treitz3 wrote: »

Maybe you are not as picky?

I don't know , I'm pretty picky. I still want to know what you guys are hearing that is not right?
When I don't like the center channel I usually don't like the rest of the system. This has happened many many times.

Lietuvis91

I'm not happy with my cs2 (lack of clearity, hard to understand dialog in movies), so i first thought upgrade to an RTia6 or maybe an lsic, but then decided I will throw an amp at the cs2 (parasound hca1000a) and see what happens. Don't have the amp yet, it's on its way, but hoping for a significant improvment.

I REALLY hope Mantis is right on this one, that sticking to the correct speaker and adding amplification will solve this problem.

We shall see...

VR3

My problem with center channels is they just usually suck... sound like a box - no expansion outside the confines of the box... just lackluster and very non-dynamic...

Conradicles

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

My problem with center channels is they just usually suck... sound like a box - no expansion outside the confines of the box... just lackluster and very non-dynamic...

You could be wrong and that is OK.:eek:

treitz3

Mantis, I was razzin' ya when I responded. I know you know your stuff.

I'm not an HT guy but these are my gripes....

1 - The center is either a ghost, laid back, in your face or just plain sounds like s#!t.
2 - The timing between the 2 mains and the center is not in sequence.
3 - The sound is directly where the speaker is. With a correctly done 2-channel system, the speaker disappears. With an HT center, it almost never does. You can always tell where the damn thing is.
4 - Many times, the dialog levels do not match that of the rest of the speakers [recording dependent, I know]
5 - When an explosion happens or a train rolls across the screen, the center bottoms out or omits the frequencies on a less than stellar system which gives the sonic illusion of audio trickery that sounds about as fake as Bob Carver's toupee looked, when he actually wore one.

VR3

My ideal center channel would be the Tyler Acoustics Linbrook Super Centers (four 7" seas woofers, seas milenium tweeter) one above and below the TV...

That would be sweet. Problem? 4,000 dollars shy!

mantis

treitz3 wrote: »

Mantis, I was razzin' ya when I responded. I know you know your stuff.

I'm not an HT guy but these are my gripes....

1 - The center is either a ghost, laid back, in your face or just plain sounds like s#!t.
2 - The timing between the 2 mains and the center is not in sequence.
3 - The sound is directly where the speaker is. With a correctly done 2-channel system, the speaker disappears. With an HT center, it almost never does. You can always tell where the damn thing is.
4 - Many times, the dialog levels do not match that of the rest of the speakers [recording dependent, I know]
5 - When an explosion happens or a train rolls across the screen, the center bottoms out or omits the frequencies on a less than stellar system which gives the sonic illusion of audio trickery that sounds about as fake as Bob Carver's toupee looked, when he actually wore one.

I see your concerns. LOL about Bob I wasn't ready for that comment.
I must say bro that the brand you hear all these things in you just don't like. Maybe your trying to hold on, I believe it's time to move on.

Some examples of perfectly blended center channels.
1) BMW- listen to any of their series and the center channel will blend in perfectly with the matching mains and surround speakers. Movement and explosions will sound believable. Dialog will sound like it's coming from the screen and not the speaker. There theater systems are amazing.
2)Definitive Technology- in the Mythos series they use the exact same drivers and tweeter as the rest of the system. If you have Mythos 1's you get the Mythos 8 , it you go STS you get a 9 then if you go ST you go 10. These are all sonically matched speakers and work together to give you the movie experience.
3)Dynaudio-I have installed and owned many of their speaker packages for theater. They are not the most dynamic speakers on the planet but sound quality is off the charts or above most peoples standards. In the Audience line the 122c center channel matches the 72's and 82's perfectly. You don't hear any difference in sound when something moves from left center then right. You fully believe the sound moved like it did onscreen.
4)Klipsch- They know how to do theater , their full packages blend so well it's scary. They also have the ability to scare you. Dynamics is off the charts. All of their theater packages have a very well balanced sound. Gun shots , voice and earth sounds sound real. If you never experienced a Klipsch Reference theater , make it a point to go experience one. The center channel will never concern you but your life maybe.
5)Triad- these are a fully custom line that build each line to work magic. Not the prettiest looking speakers as they are really designed to be built in but sound quality??? Man you would be in for a treat. Clarity and dynamics are about as good as it gets , some of the very best sounding theaters I have been in had Triad speakers.
With polk speakers like the Rt series which I owned and have Installed for many years I never noticed flaws with the center channel not matching the mains or just lacking overall. The sound quality of the mains and surrounds must match the center or the experience gets lost. I assume this is what you guys are hearing.
Some tips to help bring it together. Always run the center and surrounds in small no matter what the spec's say it can do.
Make sure you have a matching quality subwoofer for believable low end. You don't want the sub to thump when it's not supposed to or lack when a bomb goes off. Everything should sound as if you where there.
The main speakers you purchase make sure your using the perfectly matched center channel . Don't by other brands or the wrong match. No matter how much "better" the center channel speaker is vs the one that matches , the system will lose balance.
Amp power , wire , placement and calibration will all have an effect on how the center channel performs. Good practice for theater amps is using the same exact amp for all channels. You will experience the same dynamics and tonal qualities amps bring to the table. If you use different amps for center channel and main channel speakers , you will lose your balance. Same goes with the surround speakers. I don't care that the system is being used for 2 channel and surround , if your going to buy a hot **** amp for the mains , and use a less quality for the center , your center will not keep up with the mains and make it appear not to have the ability to match anymore.
Wire should be the exact wire as the mains. This is less critical as long as you use the proper gauge vs length and of good quality or at least the same brand as your mains. If you are extremely picky about front 3 synergy you should not introduce a possible change in tone.
Placement can really have an effect on performance. I usually prefer the center channel to go above . In theater rooms with a screen , I like a microperf screen and the center channel centered behind the screen. if I have stadium seating and the screen is higher then usual for a 1 row seating , the center works good directly below the screen angled slightly upwards. Some center channels that can be mounted on wall like the Mythos 10 have a very wide dispersion pattern and don't require any angle to fill the room with believable sound. Pretty impressive as I have used the 10 in many different rooms with great success. I usually get prazed on how damn good my setup sounds.
Calibration probably one of the things most people do wrong. A proper calibrated theater system will always outperform one that is tailored to someones preference. Movies are recorded in ways that depend on the replay system to be balanced. If you tailor this balance you will forever be tweaking the system as movie soundtracks change and your system now will never have the ability to play the sound track correctly therefore fooling the end user that the system is at fault.

Just remember that it all starts with enjoying the speakers first. If you are not fully liking them , then the center channel will never please you. If you have done everything else correct and still fee the center channel is lacking then I gotta be brutally honest you don't like that speaker package.
All the comments I read years ago about the LSI center channel I firmly believe all those people didn't really fully love the Lsi series. When the time came for me that I felt I needed more , I moved onto a better richer quality speaker package that delighted me. I suggest doing the same instead of banging your head against the wall about a flawed center channel. There are to many good theater speaker packages out there which for you to enjoy I could list all the ones I have experience. Just ask and you will receive.

Good luck guys with your center channel issues. If there is anything else I can help with please ask.

Outfitter03

Mantis what models of Klipsch are you referring to for the Reference Theater? RF-7II?

jinjuku

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

if I had a THIRD Super Tower for my center channel and a 12 ft screen - that would be bad to the bone!

That would be my ultimate goal....

newsman

Obviously, the best center channel speaker is the one that matches your front speakers. But if you have to speak in the absolute terms, B&W used to make the absolute best center channel speaker - HTM1. Why it's the best? Is it looks, power? Actually, I think it's the best because it was equal to the left and right floorstanders while still having horizontal profile to fit under the screen. For music reproduction that's the next best thing to having 3 identical speakers in the the front.

mantis

Beautiful pic of the b&w system.
I believe we need to go to the requirements of a home theater system and understand the definition. Then once we discover this we can move forward.

newsman

Center channel is not just about HT. There is a small but resilient part of audiophiles who are fans of multi channel music thanks to SACD (and DVDA). In such setup, having a center that can match flanking speakers is even more important.

Did you know that originally Stereo was planned to be a 3 channel setup? A lot of legendary RCA Living Stereo recordings were done in 3 channels for that reason. They had to be down-mixed to 2 channels for LPs and later CDs. Thanks to SACD they can be finally enjoyed in their original mix.

Lietuvis91

Mantis:

very informative info in your post, thank you for taking the time!

Quick question: based on your comments about matching amplification in the front, sounds to me like my idea of running a bridged parasound 1000a for the cs2 and 1500a powering the two m70's would set the front sound stage off balance? Would this somehow be able to be adjusted at the receiver level or is my approach just wrong based on the different power levels alone?

I may have to rethink this again...

cnh

L-91...how much tweaking have you done with the CS2? I have one of those as well and it took a while to dial it in. The Audyssey tech was not of much use there, it had to be done by 'ear'? I run an Onkyo 805 with no extra amp (not really necessary in my room). I found I had to set the crossover to 60hz (which disagrees with Dan above), and tweak the Bass and Treble settings, boosting the bass more than the treble. I also engaged the cinema filter for 'bright' sound on the Onkyo and had the center at -3db compared to the M-70s. All of this made a 'significant' difference in the sound of the center which is much better now.

I do really like V-3s set up above though, that makes a lot of sense to me and I can only imagine how that sounds with one bookshelf above and below the screen!

I also have the utmost respect for Mantis's years of installation experience and his comments above. And agree that the Rti series is perhaps one of the easiest to dial in...my basement rig is an all Rti bookshelf system with a Polk sub and it's fairly seamless with little to no dialing in of the center?

Of course, three identical speakers would probably provide the best front stage but that's a bit impractical for most of us...and definitely for our 'wives'? lol

cnh

bsoko2

CS1000p - I use it with my rebuilt 2.3TL's for HT movies, Music is 2-channel. RT1000p for L & R surrounds. RT55i's for rear surrounds and front wides.

Lietuvis91

cnh:

For the time that I couldn't dial in the cs2 it was running off the the onkyo 608 in a 5.1 setup with m60s, and based on the discussions I had with other members on this board, it became pretty clear that lack of power from the receiver was the shortcoming there.

As far as tweaks, you are correct that audissey did nothing spectacular. I had to re-adjust by"ear" all the settings. I honestly wasn't happy with the whole system until i made adjustments, but particularly with the cs2, because I couldnt make out the dialog when watching movies, as it sounded mufled. Bumping up the center speaker level, treble and taking away the lower frequencies by setting it to 80hz made a huge difference and cleaned up the sound, 100hz sounded even better as far as dialog was concerned. But now the sound was flat and I could tell I was missing a good range of frequencies.

I may have jumped the gun on getting the amps as I have not tested this same setup with the marantz receiver, just have not had the time. The marantz probably would have done a fine job on it's own. But now that I will have the amps to run this stuff, I will try it and see what happens.