Tubes -vs- Class A SS...the shootout!!!

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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited May 2011
    I believe that going with external xovers is a bit much and unneccesary....just buy a better loudspeaker. I know a bunch of insane audiophiles offline and only 1 in 25 uses a complete external system....not just a simple xover.

    You'll never recoup anything on those at that point but I'm a resale guy and not so much a keep the same thing forever type when it comes to speakers. If you get a solid backend, which you're already starting to play with, it's time to start playing with loudspeakers again....just on a much broader level.

    You should start listening to manufacturers you passed on previously....which could be anything since we last really chatted. Look into some vintage but still current Vandersteen....the new PSB line....Sonus Faber....Magnepan....and if you're running a nice tube rig....revisit horns again.

    The world is your oyster man and if you think we all didn't do the same thing you did, much earlier perhaps :smile: doesn't mean the experience was lost.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • strider
    strider Posts: 2,568
    edited May 2011
    Any opinions on Class AB/BA amps. I've heard they were very popular in Sweden.
    Wristwatch--->Crisco
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited May 2011
    strider wrote: »
    Any opinions on Class AB/BA amps. I've heard they were very popular in Sweden.

    Class AB is very popular in Sweden? What brand?
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited May 2011
    I believe it's Voulez-Vous but the name of the game is money, money, money and winner takes all when it comes to that manufacturer. When you really step up your game and become one of us, you'll be crying S.O.S.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • Flash21
    Flash21 Posts: 316
    edited May 2011
    Mama Mia! :rolleyes:
    Steve Carlson
    Von Schweikert VR-33 speakers
    Bel Canto eVo2i integrated amp
    Bel Canto PL-2 universal disc player
    Analysis Plus Oval Nine speaker cables and Copper Oval-In Micro interconnects
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    Polk Monitor 10B speakers, retired but not forgotten
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited May 2011
    dorokusai wrote: »
    Look into some vintage but still current Vandersteen....the new PSB line....Sonus Faber....Magnepan....and if you're running a nice tube rig....revisit horns again.
    Hmmm, thanks for the suggestions and I will audition these lines as time allows. Would you possibly add vintage Vienna Acoustics to that list, or no?

    I'm torn here with the speakers. I know first hand what the upgrades can do to an already well performing speaker and I already own them. The upgrades aren't a substantial [cost wise] upgrade but the end result as to what hits your ears are quite substantial.

    The last time I upgraded speakers [out of this lineup...Tyler Acoustics], I ended up changing out the entire rig 5X, if not more. I do not want to do that again. My wallet.....and my wife would kill me. I have heard MBL's, vintage and recent ML's, Infinities, Klipsch's, Wilson's and a handful of others with the price being between 3/4 of the cost of my house down to around 12K. I just don't have that type of dough to spend but that's not the point I'm trying to make.

    I didn't like any of them, with the exception of the Wilson's properly dialed in. That pair was a pair of Sophia's and to be honest? They didn't rock my world either. They were just a good overall speaker with great imaging [again, dialed in properly] that lacked the lowest of registers.

    Wouldn't it make more sense in my position to explore [resale aside] what the speakers I currently own have to offer on the upgrade path and then along with this amp [and possibly another one], look into the next item that may need attention. That being tuning the speakers to the room and room acoustics?

    Regardless, I will look into the suggested speaker lines. I'm just kinda thinkin' out loud here....
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,965
    edited May 2011
    Nice to see ya playing around with the rig Tom, that MF is nice, though when you move up their chain, you might experience a bit more of what your already hearing. Fun stuff isn't it ? Wish I had the coin to do the same but my wine fetish took over this year.:smile:

    As Mark pointed out, synergy may come and go in the rig when you start playing around, but the fun is getting it back only in a bigger way. Have fun bro.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited May 2011
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Hmmm, thanks for the suggestions and I will audition these lines as time allows. Would you possibly add vintage Vienna Acoustics to that list, or no?

    Absolutely. The new line is VERY nice and I've had a couple pairs at home to play with....that was just a few suggestions man. I wouldn't spend a penny more on the Tyler's but that's just me.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,965
    edited May 2011
    dorokusai wrote: »
    I wouldn't spend a penny more on the Tyler's but that's just me.

    Agreed ..... just too many good speaker makers out there today to start playing around with external crossovers.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,559
    edited May 2011
    treitz3 wrote: »
    It seems as this amplifier is more linear than any amplifier I have had in the rig to date.

    The best way to describe it would be that there is no accentuation of some frequencies, while there are no reductions with others. Does that make sense? Across the board, it seems as if the playback is equal. It's as if I'm hearing for the first time what the recording engineer actually wanted on well recorded music.

    There ya go.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited May 2011
    tonyb wrote: »
    Agreed ..... just too many good speaker makers out there today to start playing around with external crossovers.

    Tom - If you really want to go outboard, try something like the Audio Psychic lineup as it has everything you'd like to do in that regards. Or go with something better but I'd be willing to bet you end up with a rotation of monkey coffins or panels instead.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,965
    edited May 2011
    I'm thinking the ESL's may be in your future, possibly get you to rethink your direction.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited May 2011
    F1nut wrote: »
    There ya go.
    No bias in that statement, is there? :wink: :biggrin:

    Fellas, it's time for a date with the pillow. LOTS to absorb here and on that note, lots to plan on listening too.

    I will say this. I am impressed enough to look at a higher lineup of MF amplifiers. One question that may or may not be answered while I sleep. Does Musical Fidelity offer a true/pure Class A amplifier?
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited May 2011
    Today I am playing around with different IC's. I will say this, she responds well to different one's. I'm wondering about the PC's being that much of an affect on the MF A3cr due to the choke regulator's but we'll see about those after I find the flavor of choice for the IC's.

    The only ones I will be swapping today will be between the Dodd MLP and the amplifier. Tomorrow I'll explore between the Jolida and the Dodd, leaving the favored IC between the Dodd and the MF.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • Erik Tracy
    Erik Tracy Posts: 4,673
    edited May 2011
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Today I am playing around with different IC's. I will say this, she responds well to different one's. I'm wondering about the PC's being that much of an affect on the MF A3cr due to the choke regulator's but we'll see about those after I find the flavor of choice for the IC's.

    The only ones I will be swapping today will be between the Dodd MLP and the amplifier. Tomorrow I'll explore between the Jolida and the Dodd, leaving the favored IC between the Dodd and the MF.

    Is this a 'death match shootout' in that only one amp remains?:tongue:

    Please keep up the reports - fascinating stuff to learn from you guys.

    Thanks for sharing

    H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited May 2011
    Erik Tracy wrote: »
    Is this a 'death match shootout' in that only one amp remains?:tongue:
    No, both amps are still in the shootout. The one I'm concentrating on now is the Musical Fidelity SS amplifier. If I had to choose today between the tubes or SS? I honestly don't know what I would decide. Both of them have their own deficiencies and their own attributes. The bottom line is that both of them are extremely enjoyable to listen too [with the right tubes in the Anthem's]. Here's the plan.

    Listen to this one for a while and then in about a month or two, switch back to the Anthem1's after they are repaired. I have already done the work to find out what cables work best with the Anthem's so when I do switch back? I'll give you my final shootout observations.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • Erik Tracy
    Erik Tracy Posts: 4,673
    edited May 2011
    treitz3 wrote: »
    No, both amps are still in the shootout. The one I'm concentrating on now is the Musical Fidelity SS amplifier. If I had to choose today between the tubes or SS? I honestly don't know what I would decide. Both of them have their own deficiencies and their own attributes. The bottom line is that both of them are extremely enjoyable to listen too [with the right tubes in the Anthem's]. Here's the plan.

    Listen to this one for a while and then in about a month or two, switch back to the Anthem1's after they are repaired. I have already done the work to find out what cables work best with the Anthem's so when I do switch back? I'll give you my final shootout observations.

    Thanks.

    I meant at the end of your shootout, will only 1 amp remain, or will you keep both?

    H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited May 2011
    treitz3 wrote: »
    No, both amps are still in the shootout. The one I'm concentrating on now is the Musical Fidelity SS amplifier. If I had to choose today between the tubes or SS? I honestly don't know what I would decide. Both of them have their own deficiencies and their own attributes. The bottom line is that both of them are extremely enjoyable to listen too [with the right tubes in the Anthem's]. Here's the plan.

    Listen to this one for a while and then in about a month or two, switch back to the Anthem1's after they are repaired. I have already done the work to find out what cables work best with the Anthem's so when I do switch back? I'll give you my final shootout observations.

    Well,,if the MF wins-- dibs on the Black Anthem please.
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited May 2011
    Not sure if I know the answer to your question yet, Erik. George, you get first dibs on whichever one you want if I ever do decide to sell.

    Update: I still haven't gotten around to playing with the PC's yet. I have gone through about 15 IC's trying to find the right one for this amp. Not one of them sound the same. I have heard everything from missing mids and bloated bass to a bright top end with limited, yet accurate bass. Rolled off top end, pushed back mids and adequate bass and just about every conceivable combination in between.

    I'm currently waiting on a set of Transparent IC's that I'm hoping will do this amp right. They have been said to be a neutral and quiet and that's what I'm looking for. Hopefully it will pair well with what I have. We'll see.

    I will say this, my ears are really liking this Musical Fidelity amplifier.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • Erik Tracy
    Erik Tracy Posts: 4,673
    edited May 2011
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Not sure if I know the answer to your question yet, Erik. George, you get first dibs on whichever one you want if I ever do decide to sell.

    Update: I still haven't gotten around to playing with the PC's yet. I have gone through about 15 IC's trying to find the right one for this amp. Not one of them sound the same. I have heard everything from missing mids and bloated bass to a bright top end with limited, yet accurate bass. Rolled off top end, pushed back mids and adequate bass and just about every conceivable combination in between.

    I'm currently waiting on a set of Transparent IC's that I'm hoping will do this amp right. They have been said to be a neutral and quiet and that's what I'm looking for. Hopefully it will pair well with what I have. We'll see.

    I will say this, my ears are really liking this Musical Fidelity amplifier.

    Not sure if this will be of much help, but I found with my MF A5 integrated amp, that the AQ Jaguars from my SACD source hits the synergistic sweet spot for bass clarity/tightness with a balanced top end that has the right amount of detail but not too much.

    H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited May 2011
    Believe it or not, I have a set of AQ Diamondbacks in in there right now. This has the best of all worlds thus far. The top end is rolled off a little bit more than my liking and some of the detail is now sometimes hard to hear....kinda like you have to strain to hear things that are normally straightforward with other cables. The mids are spot on and the bass/midbass is definitely present but not quite to my liking.

    I don't recall ever having an amplifier that was this responsive to IC changes, both subtle and obvious before.

    I'm kinda thinking at this point that I will try multiple IC changes between the CDP and pre and at the same time, between the pre and amp. I'll mark down my observations with each pair and see if I can't find what it is that I'm looking for. I'm so damned close I can taste it. If I can't find everything, I can always go back to rolling some tubes in the Jolida and/or the Dodd but I really like the Ei12AX7's GP tubes I have in both at the moment and I don't want [at this point] to mess with something that ain't broken, if you know what I mean. Thanks for your suggestion, though. I might have a set of Jaguars around here somewhere. If I can find them, I'll give them a whirl.

    I'm actually kind of curious to see what the Monster M1000i's would do in this rig. :eek: That's right, I said the "M" word. Please don't shoot me.

    *Runs like a **** out of church*
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • Erik Tracy
    Erik Tracy Posts: 4,673
    edited May 2011
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Believe it or not, I have a set of AQ Diamondbacks in in there right now. This has the best of all worlds thus far. The top end is rolled off a little bit more than my liking and some of the detail is now sometimes hard to hear....kinda like you have to strain to hear things that are normally straightforward with other cables. The mids are spot on and the bass/midbass is definitely present but not quite to my liking.

    I don't recall ever having an amplifier that was this responsive to IC changes, both subtle and obvious before.

    I'm kinda thinking at this point that I will try multiple IC changes between the CDP and pre and at the same time, between the pre and amp. I'll mark down my observations with each pair and see if I can't find what it is that I'm looking for. I'm so damned close I can taste it. If I can't find everything, I can always go back to rolling some tubes in the Jolida and/or the Dodd but I really like the Ei12AX7's GP tubes I have in both at the moment and I don't want [at this point] to mess with something that ain't broken, if you know what I mean. Thanks for your suggestion, though. I might have a set of Jaguars around here somewhere. If I can find them, I'll give them a whirl.

    I'm actually kind of curious to see what the Monster M1000i's would do in this rig. :eek: That's right, I said the "M" word. Please don't shoot me.

    *Runs like a **** out of church*

    Even within the AQ 'family' of ICs, I've noticed dramatic differences...synergy is a ****...but once you lick her...she's mighty sweet....:biggrin:

    Keep trying.....:tongue:

    H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited May 2011
    treitz3 wrote: »

    I will say this, my ears are really liking this Musical Fidelity amplifier.

    And that should be by far the most important factor.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited May 2011
    Absolutely. I like how you're trying everything possible Tom to see what differences you hear or don't hear. It's been awhile, a good while since I've had to or chose to do that. I miss it a little.

    You even mentioned Monster Cable, which I hope you don't do again but good luck. At least the 1000i's were decent from a construction standpoint although terribly overpriced when new.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited May 2011
    Well......I was kinda secretly hoping that the Monster M1000i would do the rig some kind of justice. Yeah, I was WRONG. I put them in just as my wife came home. Allow me to preface a tad....my wife knows jack about audio. I mean, not one thing. When I turned the rig on, she had "this look" on her face and she commented that....and I quote......"That sounds like s#!t".

    So, I guess I learned something about my wife today. She does know something about audio because I honestly agreed with her wholeheartedly. There was a point in time where this cable was a good one, in fact, the reason I still have it is because back in the day [about 2 decades ago] this was the first IC I had ever heard that made a difference. Man, I gotta be honest. This thing sucked major balls. In all aspects. All deficiencies and not even one attribute. So much for Monster.

    Those of you who are Monster fans, please check out the Flea Market in the next couple of days because I have many a pair that will be listed. 2 pairs of M1000i's, a pair of Interlink 300MkII's, a pair of M350i's and a pair of M550i's. In my past experience, the M1000i's were the best and quite frankly, if I have heard the best on the rig I currently own...I don't want to hear the rest. My loss will be your gain because I rarely ever get rid of cables. I think I've only sold 2 that I have purchased throughout my entire life.

    That said, I tried the rest of what I had and I came right back to the AQ Diamondbacks. It turned out that I didn't have a pair of Jaguars. The pair I thought were Jaguars were actually Sidewinders. With them, the overall frequencies were the bomb but the sound stage collapsed to the point to where I had a 2-D sound stage. Ouch.

    Bear with me, as I still haven't tried combo's of IC's as life keeps getting in the way. The IC I currently have between the Jolida and the Dood is some type of Wire World IC. With the Anthem1 tube amps, this had the best synergy there. I'll get to it but I have to be honest, I have to prepare to go down to Florida this weekend to audition some speakers as well as pick some up.

    Well, here's my thoughts....until I get the Transparent cable in, I'll go ahead and try some PC's and see if they even make one iota of difference. I've mentioned before that the choke regulator should make a PC upgrade pretty much a mute point but I'm stubborn. I want to find out for myself.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited May 2011
    One other thing I'd like to add is that when listening to Tool or Def Leopard, it sounds as if I'm listening to a well recorded album. Everything is clear and discernible. It's kinda strange but a pleasure listening to something like that as I would an audiophile album.

    Yet, strangely on the same note...some albums don't sound as good.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited May 2011
    Tom - Please tell me you didn't just butcher the name of what is quite possibly the most jean jacket adorned band ever....Def Leppard. Leopard? Oh man...this coupled with your hop scotching along with Monster Cable have put you in serious core member jeppardy.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited May 2011
    Damn spell check. My bad, didn't catch that. Spank me silly.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited May 2011
    I had excellent results with Kimber PBJ and Hero with my MF A3CR preamp. Just the right mix of bringing lower mids out a bit--givng the sound more body; and slightly rolling off the bouncy treble.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited May 2011
    Hmmm, I have always discounted Kimber due to a listening session in Raleigh with some Martin Logans. It may be time to reintroduce them. When I listened to them last time, the distinct thing I remember is that they seemed to "throw down" the sound stage about a foot or two. That's the last thing I need in the rig I currently have. I take it that you did not experience this?

    Thanks for the suggestion and to let you know, I'm not in any way dogging Kimber....just sharing what I experienced with them in the past. Like I said, I'm open.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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